Sublime Sound

[the sound of Tao]

So, plane tickets to expensive systems that are not natural will help understand the contrast better

I know what natural is but what’s a freakin plane ticket? We can’t even drive from state to state here lol

 

[ddk]

Tang, in case you are not following this is what some googling gives you

"
What does it do? Well, it controls “presence", which boosts upper-mid and treble frequencies in a specific manner that makes the tone sound notably livelier; a little “wilder” than normal. The quality of this livelier, wilder tone is typically described as being more “present,” thus the name.

Saying that the upper-mid and treble frequencies become more present doesn’t exactly mean they become “louder” in the sense that an amp’s volume control affects all frequencies evenly. Nor does the presence control affect the tone in the same manner as the amp’s “mid” and “treble” tone controls.

To explain what a presence control does in greater detail, let us note a fundamental basic of amplifier design. Namely, that an amp consists of at least two “sections”—a preamp stage and a power amp stage. The preamp stage comes first and is where most of the tone shaping happens; the power amp stage comes second and provides the muscle that blasts your sound out into the world and makes the neighbors call the cops.

Your amp’s traditional tone controls—“bass,” “mid” and “treble”—reside in the preamp stage and thus accomplish their work before the signal reaches the power amp. These tone controls are generally “subtractive”—that is, they don’t boost anything; they control the amount of frequency band removed from the signal.

The presence control, on the other hand, resides in the power amp stage. Technically, it’s a “high frequency shelving boost” control, which is much like the treble control on a traditional stereo. Turning it up actually does boost part of the frequency band.

Here’s where things get a little complicated, but hang in there with us. Because of the nature of power amp design and function (specifically power amp feedback, the science of which fills volumes if not entire libraries) the presence control affects upper-mid and high frequencies in a completely different way that than the normal tone controls found in the preamp stage.

Increasing the presence control decreases high-frequency-only feedback in the power amp, which makes the amp distort more easily for higher notes. Also, it decreases the amp’s ability to precisely control the actual speaker cone at high frequencies—this is what makes the amp sound wilder and raspier in a way that the treble control knob isn’t capable of.

When playing an amp cleanly, increasing the presence control simply results in more upper midrange and treble.

When pushing an amp into distortion, though, the presence control behaves differently. It changes the “texture” of the distortion and adds complexity to the sound, making the amp feel a little “less predictable” for higher notes.

As you can see then, the function of the presence control varies with volume. The louder you play, the more it does and the more noticeable it becomes."

What you’re quoting here is a type of eq used in PA and sound reinforcement systems, similarly named controls, ie “presence & brilliance” were available on some vintage speakers like Tannoys which basically rolled off the top end or changed the sound balance to emphasize certain frequency range. I doubt that any reviewer is trying to describe sound in eq terms.

david

 

[bonzo75]

What you’re quoting here is a type of eq used in PA and sound reinforcement systems, similarly named controls, ie “presence & brilliance” were available on some vintage speakers like Tannoys which basically rolled off the top end or changed the sound balance to emphasize certain frequency range. I doubt that any reviewer is trying to describe sound in eq terms.

david

I did read in a couple of reviews talking about the presence region, as if it was a frequency range. That is what confused me. I don't know which reviews now as it was a while ago. If someone just said I felt the presence of the singer/orchestra, that is much more easier to understand in a holistic way

 

[ddk]

I did read in a couple of reviews talking about the presence region, as if it was a frequency range. That is what confused me. I don't know which reviews now as it was a while ago. If someone just said I felt the presence of the singer/orchestra, that is much more easier to understand in a holistic way

You’re reading too many reviews !

david

 

[microstrip]

Is there more?

Surely.

See https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html . It is all there.

For example,

naturalness : Realism.

presence range The lower-treble part of the audio spectrum, approximately 1-3kHz, which contributes to presence in reproduced sound.

 

[bonzo75]

Surely.

See https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html . It is all there.

For example,

naturalness : Realism.

presence range The lower-treble part of the audio spectrum, approximately 1-3kHz, which contributes to presence in reproduced sound.

See David? 1 - 3khz

 

[Folsom]

Some people use too much brain hearing sound and scrutinize too much of everything. Presence is just presence. You could hear and you could feel otherwise your brain wont be triggered to come up with the word "presence" to describe the sensation. My secretary knows no audiophile vocab yet she used the word presence to describe sound to me once. So no need to act like such a guru that can no longer use a simple word such as "presence" or "natural" to describe sound.

I stopped reading some replies on subject. So long, but just trying to justify philosophy for purchase/setup belief.

Presence is the feeling of the sound being there, not representation of it. Many factors make it, but if you have a venn diagram it is small area, not big (and probably 4D).

I think palpable is a funny way to judge. A little bit contributes to presence but a lot no longer sounds real (go listen to live music, and you’ll know this to be true). I heard a stereo that cost almost nothing the other day with more palpability than any stereo ever before. It makes it super obvious it is a recording, images like marble. At that point it just draws attention to itself, and makes you think it the whole time about it being a recording. I prefer to hear music that has recording characteristic that you know is there but don’t focus on, not a recording with music characteristic.

 

[microstrip]

No, we do not. We need season tickets to a great orchestra, or a local jazz bar around the corner, invitations and plane tickets to visit Tang, ddk, MikeL, or others, and a reliable memory.

Although the season tickets are great - and I am really missing them in those days - proper understanding of the mechanisms and technicalities of the stereo system will not hurt ...

 

[PeterA]

Surely.

See https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html . It is all there.

For example,

naturalness : Realism.

presence range The lower-treble part of the audio spectrum, approximately 1-3kHz, which contributes to presence in reproduced sound.

Valin in TAS mentions the “presence region”.

 

[bazelio]

Presence region is a well-defined term.

 

[PeterA]

I stopped reading some replies on subject. So long, but just trying to justify philosophy for purchase/setup belief.

I think we rarely need to justify. However, When asked what led one to the recent changes in his system or “Did you have a revelation?” would you prefer to read a simpler response such as “ I bought it or I did it because I wanted to“?

I suppose such a response would be kind of refreshing.

 

[bonzo75]

I think we rarely need to justify. However, When asked what led one to the recent changes in his system or “Did you have a revelation?” would you prefer to read a simpler response such as “ I bought it or I did it because I wanted to“?

I suppose such a response would be kind of refreshing.

Then we can shut down the forum.

Writing should be treated as a sport, so please turn up to play

 

[ddk]

See David? 1 - 3khz

See what? That turning the knob one way boosts that frequency range and turning it the other way changes the balance in another way? Personally I don't have a problem with the word and probably can understand the author's intent if I read the review, which I rarely do anymore.

david

 

[PeterA]

Then we can shut down the forum.

Writing should be treated as a sport, so please turn up to play

I prefer to think of writing more as a hobby then as a sport. I play lots of sports and those often end up as competition. Writing should not be a competition but a way to convey meaning and experiences. Unless you want to compete with others. Often times I feel this hobby is a competition, for better or for worse.

 

[bonzo75]

See what? That turning the knob one way boosts that frequency range and turning it the other way changes the balance in another way? Personally I don't have a problem with the word and probably can understand the author's intent if I read the review, which I rarely do anymore.

david

I meant see, this is the review that was trying to apportion a frequency range to a word like presence

 

[Folsom]

I think we rarely need to justify. However, When asked what led one to the recent changes in his system or “Did you have a revelation?” would you prefer to read a simpler response such as “ I bought it or I did it because I wanted to“?

I suppose such a response would be kind of refreshing.

The results are relative. So if someone makes a change they can say why, then inform if it was true. There’s not a lot philosophy involved because it either did or did not.

For example, you put all those plates under your gear because you thought it might sound better. Then you told us how it did sound better. What you didn’t do is explain why it would, as if you already knew. You could retrospectively make up lots of reasons, but thankfully you’ve spared us from trying to explain the physics and how that actually translates to electrical sound. Even DDK doesn’t do that, he just says that mass loading, especially with his favorite type of mass, sounds better to him - he’ll describe the sound but not a long winded belief system of why it works. He’ll try lots of things but doesn’t bias himself, he works off the results.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think we rarely need to justify. However, When asked what led one to the recent changes in his system or “Did you have a revelation?” would you prefer to read a simpler response such as “ I bought it or I did it because I wanted to“?

I suppose such a response would be kind of refreshing.

whatever you are already doing from your perspective, (as far as i'm concerned) please continue as before. explaining can be related to justifying, but it's not really the same thing in a fun/hobby/pastime situation. part of the fabric of the forum.

'on a whim' or 'off the cuff' rationalizations stops information exchange and dialog. maybe appropriate from time to time.

 

[ddk]

I meant see, this is the review that was trying to apportion a frequency range to a word like presence

ahhh, I had to read the review .

david

 

[the sound of Tao]

Surely.

See https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html . It is all there.

For example,

naturalness : Realism.

presence range The lower-treble part of the audio spectrum, approximately 1-3kHz, which contributes to presence in reproduced sound.

But like a scene from Oliver, I am tempted to say again can I have more. Not rudely or because I am greedy but (while containing some great and handy stuff) none of the systems of subjective definition that have gone before have actually answered all our questions or satiated all our hunger to understand better.

Which for me is why just quoting out of one of any of the more accepted bibles of subjective understanding is not (I’d suggest) for many of or possibly even not most of us therefore a complete solution.

We continue to grasp at understanding and there is always latitude in interpretation and that is as it should be. I’m not sure it’s even just the simple yes no response to does this sound natural or not. Until we have some unifying TOE (Theory of everything) that correlates all human behaviour we are stuck with the gritty unease of the imperfect communication whenever trying to box in the unobjective world. Until completely unified in understanding of human behaviour and of consciousness there are no single winners in this, we just have to accept that there can be those definitions that feel essentially right to any of us and only the more we agree the more essentially right we can therefore be.

I’m happy with an unconscious holistic evaluation on when I feel I am experiencing naturalness or even better moments of realness and feel comfortable with how I apply that distinction because for me rightness in this is set within the limits of my experience much like an appreciation of preference and may not just be about dopamine rewards or sonic parameters alone but somehow also how fundamentally the experiential world meshes with the actual.

 

[PeterA]

I find interesting that only one or two years ago, I read very few references to a system sounding "natural". DDK used this term, but rarely did I see others using it. Perhaps I was simply not paying enough attention.

I used to break down sound into parts when trying to describe what I heard. I moved toward more complication, more stuff, and more words all in a seemingly endless attempt to improve and to describe, and to "understand" what I was doing and hearing.

These days, I am attempting to simplify. I have removed things from the system and from the room. I am selling off stuff and getting back to really enjoying my system again. I am also understanding what I hear in simpler terms. I think less about parts, and more about the whole and where I am going.

I am also increasingly seeing the term "natural" being used in our discussions about sound. Are others having similar thoughts, and noticing similar things, or am I adrift in my observations? Is the conversation really changing?