Sublime Sound

Two or three years ago if someone said to you: "Arnie's system sounds quite natural." would you know what he meant or think to yourself what the heck does that mean?

I don't think you find too many references to "natural" because as a term, as an "accepted audiophile adjective" on it's own it is ambiguous at best for the purpose of conveying to someone else how Arnie's system sounds. Of course you or David or anyone can say - it's obvious, I know it when I hear it. But does the person you're communicating with know what you know or hear what you hear?

To be useful, the meaning of word needs to be spelled out or explained. In a sense it's meaning has always been there - it's not a new sound, it's not a discovery. Not only have we been talking here about "natural" as an adjective, but more importantly (imo) as an orientation, as a description of one's basis for preference or guide for building systems.

Yes, you're seeing it used and discussed here more - partly for the very reason of need for explanation. People pay attention to what David says and we often nod our heads in agreement with him. In a sense, what we're doing now is codifying a meaning for the purpose of using and accepting the term in discussion - at least for this community and perhaps for the larger audiophile community vocabulary.
You're right Tim, "Natural" can be pretty ambiguous and it's difficult to quantify in words, also there are different levels of "natural". It's just one of those thing that needs to be experienced, then you know. Best I can describe it is how much the system disappears and gets out of the way of music. There can be flaws but they're not distracting and the emotional along with the artistic content of music is conveyed with as little electronic and mechanical presence as possible to the point that it gets beyond reproduction and becomes real to our many of our senses.

david
 
Natural is more useful in the sense it keeps you aware of what is not natural. So with regards to a system or component, you can file it away as not natural.

But, once you have two or more that are natural, more details help in describing the differences.

Of course you can choose not to add more details and we can all do something else with our time
 
You're right Tim, "Natural" can be pretty ambiguous and it's difficult to quantify in words, also there are different levels of "natural". It's just one of those thing that needs to be experienced, then you know. Best I can describe it is how much the system disappears and gets out of the way of music. There can be flaws but they're not distracting and the emotional along with the artistic content of music is conveyed with as little electronic and mechanical presence as possible to the point that it gets beyond reproduction and becomes real to our many of our senses.

david

One person's lack of distraction by flaws and resulting emotional involvement is another person's insurmountable distraction by flaws and inability to be emotionally engaged by the reproduction.

In that sense natural is subjective, too subjective perhaps.
 
One person's lack of distraction by flaws and resulting emotional involvement is another person's insurmountable distraction by flaws and inability to be emotionally engaged by the reproduction. In that sense natural is subjective, too subjective perhaps.
Al you’re a music lover and a scientist. Is the spread to aim for a 50/50 mix of objectivity and subjectivity as a perfect balance in all disciplines or does the context of the discipline require a separate needs analysis on then how much is too much. As a listener can there be desirable limits to the appropriate level of connection to sound through music or do we just need to go all in. If music is then our primary guide as to how our system is performing sonically then how do we draw the line to any amount of subjectivity in correlation to assessment of either.

If the notion that a holistic sense of rightness is sufficient assessment for each of us even if we can’t use that to then communicate to others exactly how that tipping point is evaluated or experienced and measured either as a thought or a feeling then enough subjectivity is enough but perhaps never too much.

But ultimately if music is our essential guide then maybe subjectivity rules and once that tipping point is reached more subjectivity makes no difference. Perhaps.

It kind of reminds me of the Sufi’s drunken universe with us as cup and wine as the infinite spirit that continuously fills it. We have no limits in it’s fill... music is the sound of the universe that spins within us.
 
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One person's lack of distraction by flaws and resulting emotional involvement is another person's insurmountable distraction by flaws and inability to be emotionally engaged by the reproduction.

In that sense natural is subjective, too subjective perhaps.
Maybe for some but IME “natural” is pretty objective and people hearing it will identify the sound as such and with experience recognize the degrees too. Problem is most people work on their systems in bits, targeting certain aspects of performance for improvement individually and in hifi terms rather than a holistic total system approach with natural as a target. This is how we were taught by the likes of HP and others in the magazines.

david
 
Two or three years ago if someone said to you: "Arnie's system sounds quite natural." would you know what he meant or think to yourself what the heck does that mean?

I don't think you find too many references to "natural" because as a term, as an "accepted audiophile adjective" on it's own it is ambiguous at best for the purpose of conveying to someone else how Arnie's system sounds. Of course you or David or anyone can say - it's obvious, I know it when I hear it. But does the person you're communicating with know what you know or hear what you hear?

To be useful, the meaning of word needs to be spelled out or explained. In a sense it's meaning has always been there - it's not a new sound, it's not a discovery. Not only have we been talking here about "natural" as an adjective, but more importantly (imo) as an orientation, as a description of one's basis for preference or guide for building systems.

Yes, you're seeing it used and discussed here more - partly for the very reason of need for explanation. People pay attention to what David says and we often nod our heads in agreement with him. In a sense, what we're doing now is codifying a meaning for the purpose of using and accepting the term in discussion - at least for this community and perhaps for the larger audiophile community vocabulary.

For me it would mean a lack of "synthetic" feel (artifacts that are usually electronic in nature).
 
Tang's natural system

Because Samsung S10 has a really good pair of speakers. I actually enjoy listening to it more than many systems I have heard.

Tang
 
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Maybe for some but IME “natural” is pretty objective and people hearing it will identify the sound as such and with experience recognize the degrees too. Problem is most people work on their systems in bits, targeting certain aspects of performance for improvement individually and in hifi terms rather than a holistic total system approach with natural as a target. This is how we were taught by the likes of HP and others in the magazines.

david

Sorry to disagree, David. What I questioned in your characterization of natural is in my experience far more subjective than you think.

And yes, in general I do take an overall more holistic approach as well, and I am not interested in an "impressive" hifi sound either. I'll leave that up to some people who do not take unamplified live music as reference.
 
Sorry to disagree, David. What I questioned in your characterization of natural is in my experience far more subjective than you think.

And yes, in general I do take an overall more holistic approach as well, and I am not interested in an "impressive" hifi sound either. I'll leave that up to some people who do not take unamplified live music as reference.

No doubt, what you experience is unique to you - no one else has them - they are the ultimate in subjectivity.
Your experience can be no more or less subjective than mine. :)

And yet you and I can adopt live acoustic music as our reference. We can both go to the concert hall and while we each have our uniquely individual experiences, we can also agree that what we hear there is a natural sound. We can each go back to our audio systems and assess to what degree our systems remind us of that natural sound. But what we each reference back to is the same thing even though our experiences of it may be different. And in our assessments, we'll know it when we hear it.
 
No doubt, what you experience is unique to you - no one else has them - they are the ultimate in subjectivity.
Your experience can be no more or less subjective than mine. :)

And yet you and I can adopt live acoustic music as our reference. We can both go to the concert hall and while we each have our uniquely individual experiences, we can also agree that what we hear there is a natural sound. We can each go back to our audio systems and assess to what degree our systems remind us of that natural sound. But what we each reference back to is the same thing even though our experiences of it may be different. And in our assessments, we'll know it when we hear it.

Yes, we agree on live acoustic music as reference. That is why I was talking about emulating realism.

Yet natural sound as the absence of distracting flaws, as David suggested, is problematic. If you don't want distracting flaws, the quickest way to get there is covering up the flaws, rather than addressing them head on.

When I upgraded my system more than two years ago with new amp and speaker system, it was immediately clear to me that realism had increased dramatically, in the sense of articulation, energy, tonal differentiation and resolution -- micro resolution of timbre, separation of instruments, overall clarity.

Yet over time it also became more and more clear that artifacts, distracting flaws, had increased as well, such as exaggerated hardness and a slightly metallic coloration of sound. The much more articulate and resolving nature of the new system had exposed more problems with my room acoustics, an issue that at that time I had already worked on for years, so I knew that it probably was still haunting me. Also, as it later turned out there was a mismatch between preamp and amp.

So even though realism had increased, at the same time the sound had in a sense also become less 'natural' due the greater prominence of artifacts. If I would have gone the 'natural' route, I might have opted to again go for a less 'offensive' sound, and sold off the new components. That, however, would have been a HUGE mistake.

Instead I chose to stick to the new level of realism that the new system provided and to work on reducing the artifacts, in the confidence that there was nothing inherently wrong with my gear choices, but that I had to work on the acoustic environment instead. Later the introduction of a preamp from the same manufacturer as of my amp finally let all the pieces fall together, eventually also aided by further improvements in speaker setup. The result was, BOTH in terms of realism AND naturalness (in the sense described), vastly better than before. The holistic sound experience is in my view also much better than before.

I let realism be my primary guide, and from that vantage point I was addressing remaining artifacts. Had I chosen a 'natural' sound, in terms of lack of distracting artifacts, as my primary guide instead, this would have been a grave mistake and the final result would not have been of the high and thoroughly engaging quality that I enjoy now.
 
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Yes, we agree on live acoustic music as reference. That is why I was talking about emulating realism.

Yet natural sound as the absence of distracting flaws, as David suggested, is problematic. If you don't want distracting flaws, the quickest way to get there is covering up the flaws, rather than addressing them head on.

When I upgraded my system more than two years ago with new amp and speaker system, it was immediately clear to me that realism had increased dramatically. Yet over time it also became more and more clear that artifacts, distracting flaws, had increased as well, such as exaggerated hardness and a slightly metallic coloration of sound. The much more articulate and resolving nature of the new system had exposed more problems with my room acoustics, an issue that at that time I had already worked on for years, so I knew that it probably was still haunting me. Also, as it later turned out there was a mismatch between preamp and amp.

So even though realism had increased, at the same time the sound had in a sense also become less 'natural' due the greater prominence of artifacts. If I would have gone the 'natural' route, I might have opted to again go for a less 'offensive' sound, and sold off the new components. That, however, would have been a HUGE mistake.

Instead I chose to stick to the new level of realism that the new system provided and to work on reducing the artifacts, in the confidence that there was nothing inherently wrong with my gear choices, but that I had to work on the acoustic environment instead. Later the introduction of a preamp from the same manufacturer as of my amp finally let all the pieces fall together, eventually also aided by further improvements in speaker setup. The result was, BOTH in terms of realism AND naturalness (in the sense described), vastly better than before. The holistic sound experience is in my view also much better than before.

I let realism be my primary guide, and from that vantage point I was addressing artifacts. Had I chosen a 'natural' sound, in terms of lack of distracting artifacts, as my primary guide instead, this would have been a grave mistake and the final result would not have been of the high and thoroughly engaging quality that I enjoy now.

Al, I find this discussion quite fascinating. The more I read, the more confused I become. I had thought the concept of a natural sounding system was fairly straight forward. If a system evokes memories of what live music sounds like, it is "natural". And, the absence of distortions or artifacts leads to a more natural sound. I understand there are degrees or levels of natural, some systems sounding more like live music than others, but still....

Now we have this: "So even though realism had increased, at the same time the sound had in a sense also become less 'natural' due the greater prominence of artifacts."

I had thought that one synonym for "natural" was "realism" or "realistic". How can realism increase and the system sound less "natural" at the same time? If with particular system changes artifacts gain "greater prominence", I would think the system had become less natural.

This is what I remember thinking when I heard your system right after the new speakers and amps. I had preferred the sound prior to the changes because it had been more convincing and more realistic before. Like you are describing, I did hear more artifacts. The system drew more attention to itself and had more distortion.

I agree that you ameliorated those artifacts to some degree since then, and in that sense in now sounds more natural again, but I would not have described your system after that initial amp/speaker change as having more "realism" as you just did.

I am also confused by this comment: "Yet natural sound as the absence of distracting flaws, as David suggested, is problematic. If you don't want distracting flaws, the quickest way to get there is covering up the flaws, rather than addressing them head on."

How is defining "natural" as the "absence of distracting flaws" at all problematic? Also, Isn't covering up the flaws indeed addressing them "head on"? You are identifying the problem and dealing with it directly. Now, covering them up may be short term bandaid solutions because you may also be creating other issues like colorations etc. This may not be the best approach, but nowhere have I seen David suggest such an approach, so why refer to his definition as problematic?

The last few pages of my system thread seem to have become a continuation of that five year old thread that Amir and Blizzard caused to be shut down. And here we are again writing pages about the definition of what I had thought was a pretty simple word. Perhaps the meaning of the term "natural" is not for everyone as straight forward as I had imagined, or we simply have too much Covid time on our hands, LOL. I'm hoping to go hear Madfloyd's system later today.
 
Especially considering this quote :) regarding ¨ complicated ¨ discussions

By the way happy with the new pre amp ??
View attachment 66952

Yes, I am very pleased with the new preamp. Thank you. The two real hardware changes I've made, excluding my switch to vdH cartridges, have been my new preamp and signal and power cables. All contributed to lowering colorations and increasing clarity for what I perceive as a more natural sound. I wrote a lengthy review on WBF of my new Pass Labs XP-32 describing the effect in my system and what I am hearing.
 
Al, I find this discussion quite fascinating. The more I read, the more confused I become. I had thought the concept of a natural sounding system was fairly straight forward. If a system evokes memories of what live music sounds like, it is "natural". And, the absence of distortions or artifacts leads to a more natural sound. I understand there are degrees or levels of natural, some systems sounding more like live music than others, but still....

Now we have this: "So even though realism had increased, at the same time the sound had in a sense also become less 'natural' due the greater prominence of artifacts."

I had thought that one synonym for "natural" was "realism" or "realistic". How can realism increase and the system sound less "natural" at the same time? If with particular system changes artifacts gain "greater prominence", I would think the system had become less natural.

This is what I remember thinking when I heard your system right after the new speakers and amps. I had preferred the sound prior to the changes because it had been more convincing and more realistic before. Like you are describing, I did hear more artifacts. The system drew more attention to itself and had more distortion.

I agree that you ameliorated those artifacts to some degree since then, and in that sense in now sounds more natural again, but I would not have described your system after that initial amp/speaker change as having more "realism" as you just did.

I am also confused by this comment: "Yet natural sound as the absence of distracting flaws, as David suggested, is problematic. If you don't want distracting flaws, the quickest way to get there is covering up the flaws, rather than addressing them head on."

How is defining "natural" as the "absence of distracting flaws" at all problematic? Also, Isn't covering up the flaws indeed addressing them "head on"? You are identifying the problem and dealing with it directly. Now, covering them up may be short term bandaid solutions because you may also be creating other issues like colorations etc. This may not be the best approach, but nowhere have I seen David suggest such an approach, so why refer to his definition as problematic?

The last few pages of my system thread seem to have become a continuation of that five year old thread that Amir and Blizzard caused to be shut down. And here we are again writing pages about the definition of what I had thought was a pretty simple word. Perhaps the meaning of the term "natural" is not for everyone as straight forward as I had imagined, or we simply have too much Covid time on our hands, LOL. I'm hoping to go hear Madfloyd's system later today.

Peter, an edit of my post, which I had added apparently while you wrote your post, perhaps provides some clarification on what I perceived as greater realism, and which since that initial upgrade has been dramatically enhanced further. To quote from above:

"When I upgraded my system more than two years ago with new amp and speaker system, it was immediately clear to me that realism had increased dramatically, in the sense of articulation, energy, tonal differentiation and resolution -- micro resolution of timbre, separation of instruments, overall clarity."
 
By the way, I don't see how greater realism stands in contradiction with also an increase in distracting flaws and artifacts.

Most would agree that a good high end system has greater realism than a car radio, but it seems the case that there are often flaws in high end systems that do not present themselves to a similarly distracting degree in car radios. In fact, many report that they sometimes have an easier time getting into the music on a car radio because they don't expect that much from the sound, and because there are not singular flaws that stand out as much.

I personally can very much enjoy music on a car radio as well, even though the much deeper, more involving experience presents itself on my high end system.

Obviously, the best of both worlds is to have both, greater realism and the absence of distracting flaws and artifacts.
 
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Al I think you should change that from “problematic” to “difficult” because it’s possible and rewarding but far from easy.

And covering up flaws might be the easy route, but it’s much less rewarding.
 
Maybe for some but IME “natural” is pretty objective and people hearing it will identify the sound as such and with experience recognize the degrees too. Problem is most people work on their systems in bits, targeting certain aspects of performance for improvement individually and in hifi terms rather than a holistic total system approach with natural as a target. This is how we were taught by the likes of HP and others in the magazines.

david

I think when a non-audiophile who knows zero lingo calls it “natural” that’s a good sign.

Totally agree that usually someone is going for “more holographic” or such instead of judging the whole sound.
 
Al I think you should change that from “problematic” to “difficult” because it’s possible and rewarding but far from easy.

I agree with you in that sense. Yet what I really meant is the used description of natural being problematic. I should have been more clear.

And covering up flaws might be the easy route, but it’s much less rewarding.

Completely agreed. That's why I did not choose the route of covering up, but rather that of addressing the problems. I was not interested in a "pleasing" sound, but one that brings me closer to the music.
 
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I do strongly enjoy some aspects of realism in my system, with its level being very much dependent on the kind of music played.

I'm curious what kind of music translates with more realism in your system? I tend to think of the quality of the recording more than the type of music as being the determining factor. But then, as I think about it, certain types of music are much harder to record well, as well as harder to play back effectively through electronics/speakers.

Large, loud, complex brass sections as well as large, aggressive choral pretty much overwhelm my system. But maybe I've never heard a good recording of the above.... I tend to gravitate to smaller ensemble music both for personal taste and the fact that it reproduces better in my system.
 
I'm curious what kind of music translates with more realism in your system? I tend to think of the quality of the recording more than the type of music as being the determining factor. But then, as I think about it, certain types of music are much harder to record well, as well as harder to play back effectively through electronics/speakers.

Large, loud, complex brass sections as well as large, aggressive choral pretty much overwhelm my system. But maybe I've never heard a good recording of the above.... I tend to gravitate to smaller ensemble music both for personal taste and the fact that it reproduces better in my system.

You can have a natural sound system that has not reached the stage to resolve complex orchestral and choir, and you can have a system that resolves the complexity but is not natural sound. You want to stay on the axis of natural as you improve complexity resolution
 

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