Sublime Sound

[Al M.]

As I mentioned earlier think about how close mics are. They are unnaturally close to thing. You’ve never heard heavily outlined music from 1 mic recording that wasn’t close to the music source because there is no such thing.

Except that you can get pinpoint imaging also from 3-mic Mercury Living Presence recordings, without any extra close-miking.

So I call nonsense on the idea that "it is in the recording, and thus the system should reproduce what's in the recording".

Why do I call nonsense? Because we don't know if it's "in the recording" or an artifact that comes from reproducing the recording on the speaker level. It could or could not be the recording, we don't know. We cannot test the proposition that "it's in the recording" with diagnostic tools, i.e. speakers, that may introduce the very artifact that we aim to find in the recording itself. Proclaiming with confidence that "it's in the recording" is therefore nonsense.

Thus, setting up the speakers in a way that they avoid pinpoint imaging cannot be claimed to be any less true to the recording than setting the speakers up as to enable pinpoint imaging. Who can confidently say that one thing is more editorializing than the other?

 

[Folsom]

There's a science and art to good recordings and there are many of them and even many more average but decent ones, they're not all as bad as shitty pop ones. Leaving the poor quality recordings aside the average good recording can sound quite realistic and natural on an better system that it does on a crappier one, equipment can and do destroy the sound. Same with poor setup you get more from a proper setup. If you say was true about recordings always being wrong then there's no point to any of this!

david

I don’t see why if you achieve very pleasant, desirable to listen sound it would matter if they are good or not. And when I think about the quality if recordings I group in pop maybe more than other music because people listen to it.

Except that you can get pinpoint imaging also from 3-mic Mercury Living Presence recordings, without any extra close-miking.

So I call nonsense on the idea that "it is in the recording, and thus the system should reproduce what's in the recording".

Why do I call nonsense? Because we don't know if it's "in the recording" or an artifact that comes from reproducing the recording on the speaker level. It could or could not be the recording, we don't know. We cannot test the proposition that "it's in the recording" with diagnostic tools, i.e. speakers, that may introduce the very artifact that we aim to find in the recording itself. Proclaiming with confidence that "it's in the recording" is therefore nonsense.

Thus, setting up the speakers in a way that they avoid pinpoint imaging cannot be claimed to be any less true to the recording than setting the speakers up as to enable pinpoint imaging. Who can confidently say that one thing is more editorializing than the other?

Actually the distortion measurements alone tell us that what we here is not artifacts but rather aberrations of the original sound.

I guess you are right that some estranged equipment might give more of an outline (classD?). But pin point and outlined aren’t the same thing exactly. I’ve heard lots of precise imaging without outlines, and that aspect is fairly natural in nature. It’s not weird to hear the direction sound comes from with live music, but an outline would be.

To elaborate a little on distortion, what you might hear that can increase/decrease but still have very low numbers isn't THD but rather linear distortion (memory distortion). Linear distortion is the change in volume. A change in volume of something that is suppose to be quiet, and is already exaggerated by mic’ing, is an aberration that comes across very unnatural.

 

[Folsom]

It’s probably worth mentioning that tubes naturally have low memory distortion. Solid state on the other hand... it tends to be an unacquired skill by most designers.

 

[Al M.]

But pin point and outlined aren’t the same thing exactly. I’ve heard lots of precise imaging without outlines, and that aspect is fairly natural in nature. It’s not weird to hear the direction sound comes from with live music, but an outline would be.

There is lots of precise location from live music indeed, even orchestral, as long as you are sitting close enough, where the reflected sound does not yet overtake the direct sound.

Yet images are usually larger, that is, not pinpointed. And, yes, they are not outlined. I don't think I have ever heard live small pinpointing, which does come with precise outlines, as you can hear from some stereo reproduction. That is unnatural.

 

[MadFloyd]

It’s probably worth mentioning that tubes naturally have low memory distortion. Solid state on the other hand... it tends to be an unacquired skill by most designers.

What is 'low memory distortion'?

 

[PeterA]

Here is the second video I promised to post for @Tango. It is Vivaldi, Four Seasons, Winter, on Argo. Familiar music, but a nice interpretation. This is also the other LP I took to the NYC Audio Show in 2012 at which I asked the vendor with the Botticelli? panel speakers driven by 14 tube watts to play this music for me. It was a memorable demonstration. He enjoyed the LP and waited for me to return to the room two days later so that he could play it again for his audience.

 

[Folsom]

What is 'low memory distortion'?

It is how much the volume changes from the signal in to the output (up or down). It’s also called linear distortion and it isn’t a figure that companies publish - it isn’t THD and THD isn’t a predictor of it.

 

[bonzo75]

Here is the second video I promised to post for @Tango. It is Vivaldi, Four Seasons, Winter, on Argo. Familiar music, but a nice interpretation. This is also the other LP I took to the NYC Audio Show in 2012 at which I asked the vendor with the Botticelli? panel speakers driven by 14 tube watts to play this music for me. It was a memorable demonstration. He enjoyed the LP and waited for me to return to the room two days later so that he could play it again for his audience.

 

[microstrip]

What is 'low memory distortion'?

It is a thermal memory effect, caused by the permanent transient shifting of the characteristics of most semiconductors when operating in dynamic conditions. The cure is just selecting appropriate semiconductors and also the proper operating points.

The original articles by the original author are only available in french, but you can get an idea at this link http://peufeu.free.fr/audio/memory/

For an interesting debate on it read:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/336-lavaradin-amp-memory-distortion.html

I have owned Lavardin long ago and it sounded really nice. Unfortunately reliability was low and once there was a fault at their potted modules you had to get a new amplifier ... No recent experience with the brand however.

 

[Al M.]

I am starting to get tired of these videos again. They are all flawed, including the videos by Sound of Tao a few days ago (sorry).

I liked the choral videos and the Carla White by Peter the best, and the Scheherazade is so much better over headphones than over my computer speakers, it's ridiculous (now is the first time that I heard it with headphones, the sound does have some weight). These videos do give give an idea of better warmth from Magico than most have heard, which is great, and perhaps that has fulfilled an important purpose.

Yet in real life the system still sounds much better. -- The comparison videos are useful, because there it is about relative differences, rather than absolute sound performance.

 

[bonzo75]

I am starting to get tired of these videos again. They are all flawed, including the videos by Sound of Tao a few days ago (sorry).

I liked the choral videos and the Carla White by Peter the best, and the Scheherazade is so much better over headphones than over my computer speakers, it's ridiculous (now is the first time that I heard it with headphones, the sound does have some weight). These videos do give give an idea of better warmth from Magico than most have heard, which is great, and perhaps that has fulfilled an important purpose.

Yet in real life the system still sounds much better. -- The comparison videos are useful, because there it is about relative differences, rather than absolute sound performance.

It's good to know you never liked any videos and complained whenever you got a chance except for the videos of the Magico system you hear regularly

 

[Al M.]

It's good to know you never liked any videos and complained whenever you got a chance except for the videos of the Magico system you hear regularly

And when Peter sent around the choral videos for the first time in private, before he posted them on WBF, I told him that I was genuinely surprised how good they sounded. So my opinion did not change just because he later posted them on WBF. I also had told him previously that an earlier video of solo violin on his system, which he also had sent around in private, just plain sucked (well, I might have used other words, or not, don't quite remember). Obviously, he worked on his recording technique after that. I am consistent, not favoring any Magico videos just because they are Magico videos.

 

[PeterA]

Well, I think lots of people hate these videos, and others like them for reasons I have tried to express in earlier posts. I will say that I am surprised and don't really understand why Bonzo posted a video of someone else's system on my system thread. I do like going onto other people's threads and seeing what videos they post.

 

[bonzo75]

Well, I think lots of people hate these videos, and others like them for reasons I have tried to express in earlier posts. I will say that I am surprised and don't really understand why Bonzo posted a video of someone else's system on my system thread. I do like going onto other people's threads and seeing what videos they post.

Because it was the vivaldi

 

[PeterA]

Because it was the vivaldi

Ok, well I am not going to post my video of Vivaldi on someone else's thread. Nor any other videos unless it is solicited.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Bonzo tries to convert you to horns may be

 

[PeterA]

Bonzo tries to convert you to horns may be

HA. Seems so. One step at a time. We will see. I have a small room.

 

[andromedaaudio]

You re to easy.
The west minsters you can use also as coffeetable

Ps those were tannoys my mistake

 

[tima]

Here is the second video I promised to post for @Tango. It is Vivaldi, Four Seasons, Winter, on Argo. Familiar music, but a nice interpretation. This is also the other LP I took to the NYC Audio Show in 2012 at which I asked the vendor with the Botticelli? panel speakers driven by 14 tube watts to play this music for me. It was a memorable demonstration. He enjoyed the LP and waited for me to return to the room two days later so that he could play it again for his audience.

Nice choice. Marriner's use on an organ in that movement is brilliant.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am starting to get tired of these videos again. They are all flawed, including the videos by Sound of Tao a few days ago (sorry).

I liked the choral videos and the Carla White by Peter the best, and the Scheherazade is so much better over headphones than over my computer speakers, it's ridiculous (now is the first time that I heard it with headphones, the sound does have some weight). These videos do give give an idea of better warmth from Magico than most have heard, which is great, and perhaps that has fulfilled an important purpose.

Yet in real life the system still sounds much better. -- The comparison videos are useful, because there it is about relative differences, rather than absolute sound performance.

That is genuinely all good Al, I’d only be troubled if you only found flaws in mine and in truth perhaps not even then. I live happily with and love my system and have no issues at all that it is modest and imperfect but still it does connect to the music so easily and that is it’s fundamental design goal.

I do love that people share glimpses into their systems and also the music that they enjoy. There is obviously no absolute sound performance judgement in these just a sense of some characteristic qualities and of the spirit of the sound and perhaps even the room.

I have always enjoyed reading Peter’s thread for a range of reasons and his videos add a dimension and breath for those of us not lucky enough to be able to visit these systems that we have read about for many years shared by the people behind them. The fact that they bring music and point to other performances like Mehta’s Scheherazade, or Marriner’s Vivaldi is a bonus... I then listened to these at home also just because I had enjoyed them in Peter’s video.

Through time these may build some small library of some kind of evolutionary understanding and point to system change as well. It would have been fascinating to have videos of these recordings in Peter’s system sound prior to the great revolution as well. Not for any reason of exact transcription but just because the layers of sensation and brush strokes of experience they can carry.

Not absolute truth in context but they contain in these simple recordings a shared communication of the underlining spirit of our systems perhaps.