I will see what I can listen to on Qobuz and see what I can suggest...then maybe, just maybe I have it on vinyl (I have 2 or 3 versions but not sure what/who did them).
Sublime Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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Yes, there is quite severe dynamic compression in the loud parts. I have heard this in person on Peter's system, and the dynamics then are much better; it's not even close.
One caveat: I have not yet heard this recording in Peter's current system set-up with all the changes to power etc., but I would be surprised if hearing it there in person I would experience the steep drop in dynamic performance, compared to what I have heard in his system on previous occasions, that I hear on the video. Especially since I have heard very good dynamics on other material with his current set-up.
Videos don't always work at even the minimal level, that seems obvious.
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I didn't see how he made the recording. If it was with a phone that is probably fine for simpler music but could easily overload something that doesn't have controllable gain. With my Tascam DR-100MKIII there are a lot of ways to expand the dynamic range and control gain so capturing something with a huge dynamic range is possible...but at 24/96 it is a huge file and not easy to share.
Hello Kedar, I no longer have any Master Signatures. I have two Grand Crus, so this is my older Grand Cru on the V-12. My newer Grand Cru is on the 3012R. I may make a video of that combo for comparison purposes. I will not be able to level match them as they have different outputs, but I will try to get them close.
I agree that the GC has more nuance, its energy is more balanced throughout the frequency range, and it is a more complete cartridge than is the MSS. I wrote about the differences I hear between the two models in the GC thread I started.
EDIT: I should add that the MSS is so good that I decided to buy a second one after it had been in my system for about ten hours. These latest vdH cartridges are the best cartridges that I have had in my system.
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Thank you for the comments, Brad. There is no question the video recording is flawed, and I do not think that it captures what I hear when actually listening to my system in the room. Dynamics are indeed compressed. My system is also flawed, as are most of the ones I have heard, so I don't know if it is a system or original vinyl recording issue, or perhaps both. And I am sure the iPhone 11 recording also causes compression and is highly flawed. It is what it is.
I have no illusions about the flawed nature of these recordings. I think that unless one is specifically comparing two videos to see if he can detect audible differences in a direct comparison between two components in the videos, they should not be overly scrutinized. Disappointment in the sonic quality will always result, though I have been pleasantly surprised by some member's system videos.
What surprises me about this particular video is just how the dynamics, and particularly the quality of the tympani, has improved over time with the various changes I have made to my system set up, in this case with the Ching Cheng power cords and outlets. Those improvements are quite evident when listening to my system live. I do not have video evidence of the prior system iteration with the amps directly connected to the Furutech IEC connectors and in wall cable, so you will just have to take my word for it, or not. I posted this video because it does indicate some clarity and impact on the tympani that was not evident before, and I thought I would share another video of my system on my own system thread to those who may be interested. That was my only intent with this.
Does the Pope shit in the woods?
Hi Peter. If I may say, this Holst by Mehta record you have does not do your system justice. If you try one by Solti of the same label (not expensive either) you will get more clarity to the sound and you will hear each group of instrument plays more distinctively, better group instrument separation in the orchestra. The inter play from one group of instrument to another also pull you into music more.
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On Tuesday I had the pleasure to listen again to Peter's system. After a nice dinner at a favorite restaurant (outdoors, of course), we began the session with Frans Helmerson playing a Hindemith cello sonata (Peter earlier posted a video of the same LP where Helmerson plays Crumb). What struck me was the immediacy of dynamic expression, and the immediacy of the energy, emerging from a silent background (some surface noise notwithstanding) that filled the room. It was a riveting, dramatic performance by the cellist that came through in a very effective manner through Peter's system. I was so pleased with the experience that I asked Peter to play the Crumb as well.
Peter played the LP with the new Gran Cru cartridge on the 3012R tonearm, and apart from a brief comparison with the other arm/cartridge, that is what we mostly listened with during the remainder of the evening.
Next up was Scheherazade in the version with Mehta conducting the LA Philharmonic. We heard the first and the wild fourth movement. The music had the weight that I remembered from last time, but I also noticed that the solo violin sounded special. In recent times I have found that the playback of solo violin on digital in many cases now rivals vinyl in tone, and I did not perceive an inherent advantage of the analog medium also on this instrument anymore, which was quite remarkable. In fact, sometimes I preferred violin on digital. Yet two days ago I heard a rare realism that went beyond the usual quality of violin sounds from either vinyl playback or digital. Now, with all things sorted out in Peters system to the level that they are, and on this particular recording, the solo violin sounded just stunning in the naturalness of its texture from strings and resonances of the wooden body. Analog had again created an edge for itself; I have yet to hear such realism on solo violin tone from digital (admittedly, I have not heard this instrument on the top of the crop of digital). By the way, nothing of this realism on violin comes through on any system videos, including Peter's own (no wonder, since the YouTube medium is not just digital, but data-compressed digital).
Apart from the violin tone, all else sounded very realistic and with a depth of color rarely heard; also massed strings were excellent. Brass had a depth and weight of tone that was captivating. Separation of instruments and instrument groups was outstanding. Also here, on this orchestral piece, the immediacy of dynamic expression and of energy was remarkable.
Then it struck me what must have contributed to make this pervasive sense of tonal naturalness and of immediacy of energy from a silent background possible. While I cannot make an absolute pronouncement, this is quite possibly the system with the lowest noise -- both electronic noise and acoustic noise combined -- that I have heard so far. And all this achieved without fancy audiophile power treatment, just with apparently getting the basics of power right. Peter's system was nothing like this until now, but the low noise rendition is spectacular.
Holst's Seven Part Song for female choir and instrumental ensemble also sounded excellent. The voice of the solo singer had remarkable articulation, intelligibility and again, immediacy. It was a common theme.
We also played two songs from Art Pepper plus Eleven. It sounded very good and dynamic, and the tone of Art Pepper's alto sax was great, but here I was missing a bit of color on the ensemble brass that I hear on CD. But that must be just the LP mastering/pressing; I have heard other pressings and they sound different in many ways. My two CD masterings also sound different from one another. The walking bass lines sounded clear as always; now I was pleased though that my system finally, with the latest improvements, can render those bass lines with similar clarity (I checked again afterwards).
***
As an aside, while I have heard dynamic compression on orchestral LPs, the Mehta/LA Phil Scheherazade is one of those not so common 33 rpm LPs of large-scale orchestral music where also the macro-dynamic range is excellent.
Peter played the LP with the new Gran Cru cartridge on the 3012R tonearm, and apart from a brief comparison with the other arm/cartridge, that is what we mostly listened with during the remainder of the evening.
Next up was Scheherazade in the version with Mehta conducting the LA Philharmonic. We heard the first and the wild fourth movement. The music had the weight that I remembered from last time, but I also noticed that the solo violin sounded special. In recent times I have found that the playback of solo violin on digital in many cases now rivals vinyl in tone, and I did not perceive an inherent advantage of the analog medium also on this instrument anymore, which was quite remarkable. In fact, sometimes I preferred violin on digital. Yet two days ago I heard a rare realism that went beyond the usual quality of violin sounds from either vinyl playback or digital. Now, with all things sorted out in Peters system to the level that they are, and on this particular recording, the solo violin sounded just stunning in the naturalness of its texture from strings and resonances of the wooden body. Analog had again created an edge for itself; I have yet to hear such realism on solo violin tone from digital (admittedly, I have not heard this instrument on the top of the crop of digital). By the way, nothing of this realism on violin comes through on any system videos, including Peter's own (no wonder, since the YouTube medium is not just digital, but data-compressed digital).
Apart from the violin tone, all else sounded very realistic and with a depth of color rarely heard; also massed strings were excellent. Brass had a depth and weight of tone that was captivating. Separation of instruments and instrument groups was outstanding. Also here, on this orchestral piece, the immediacy of dynamic expression and of energy was remarkable.
Then it struck me what must have contributed to make this pervasive sense of tonal naturalness and of immediacy of energy from a silent background possible. While I cannot make an absolute pronouncement, this is quite possibly the system with the lowest noise -- both electronic noise and acoustic noise combined -- that I have heard so far. And all this achieved without fancy audiophile power treatment, just with apparently getting the basics of power right. Peter's system was nothing like this until now, but the low noise rendition is spectacular.
Holst's Seven Part Song for female choir and instrumental ensemble also sounded excellent. The voice of the solo singer had remarkable articulation, intelligibility and again, immediacy. It was a common theme.
We also played two songs from Art Pepper plus Eleven. It sounded very good and dynamic, and the tone of Art Pepper's alto sax was great, but here I was missing a bit of color on the ensemble brass that I hear on CD. But that must be just the LP mastering/pressing; I have heard other pressings and they sound different in many ways. My two CD masterings also sound different from one another. The walking bass lines sounded clear as always; now I was pleased though that my system finally, with the latest improvements, can render those bass lines with similar clarity (I checked again afterwards).
***
As an aside, while I have heard dynamic compression on orchestral LPs, the Mehta/LA Phil Scheherazade is one of those not so common 33 rpm LPs of large-scale orchestral music where also the macro-dynamic range is excellent.
Thank you Al. I'm glad you enjoyed the evening and were able to hear the improvements since last time. That new Grand Cru on the 3012R is a great combination. Yes, the Scheherazade with Mehta is an excellent recording and that 4th movement has a lot going on. It is a real test for natural resolution of a system.
I think I had made the changes to the power delivery just before the last time you visited, but both the Hubble outlets and Ching Cheng power cords on the amps were fresh with very little break in. I'm told the CC power cords don't need break in like so many other cords, but I have noticed that the sound improved in terms of dynamics after a while, so perhaps it was more the new outlets, but I can't be sure. I found our discussion about power delivery and specifically power cords quite interesting in light of our recent audition with new power cords from Shunyata which have garnered much praise from our Boston Group.
I highlighted one section of your post which summarizes my new approach to my system/room. I have found that simpler is better. Removing the Furutech IECs and essentially just plugging my amps into the wall with the new Hubble outlets improved the sense of energy and drama inherent in the recordings. This came with no negative effects. I suspect, however, that it is system context dependent and also very subjective. Regardless, I am pleased with my current, more simple approach, and I have no interest in experimenting more with power cords.
The other changes not discussed yet were continued fine tuning of my room acoustic. I removed the last absorption panel from the room. It was a 2' X 2' panel hung on the wall 14" behind the listening seat. I had followed the conventional wisdom of absorbing the reflection so close behind the listener. Like the other panels and tubes, it added too much dampening. I also opened the wooden louvers slightly on the two rear windows livening up the room a bit.
After discussing our appreciation for Frans Helmerson's cello playing, I ordered three more of his recordings and then came across some more LPs to buy. I am pretty much finished with my system for now and as the weather cools this Fall, I think I will spend money on records and listening for pleasure. It has been a year of some pretty radical changes.
Ah .... a fine notion. What I call 'The Listening Seasons' approach.
That was also my favourite line in the whole of Peter’s post Tim. A great resolve to cap a fine cycle of change. Good to go into life’s autumn with things sorted and the music playing. A perfect resolve in fact.
Thank you both Tim and Tao,
Yes, it is a good place to be right now. Al is a frequent visitor, and the last few times that he has come over, we spend less time talking, comparing, describing, and more just sitting and listening and enjoying each other's company. We did, however discuss a change to our respective vocabularies. There have been some recent threads about audio terms and what they mean, how descriptive is the word "natural", etc, etc. Al and I now use fewer words, less audiophile glossary, and instead just mention things like energy in the room, how realistic or convincing is the presentation, etc. We are finding ourselves talking less about the sound and more about the music, or just not talking at all.
The other interesting thing is that we used to listen to a larger variety of LPs and would jump around to specific tracks to highlight sonic things. We now find ourselves more and more listening to the whole side of the record. The atmosphere just seems more relaxed now as things have become more settled. And as Jim Smith once told me, the sign of success is thinking about the listening session for days afterwards. I am beginning to understand what he meant.
Dear Peter,
Our gears are very much different but there are some addictive aspects of sound that I am pretty sure we have in common and those are what Al described about noise floor or quietness and the immediacy of energy rising from quiet passages. These aspects can be illustrated from a system using music like Scheherazade with wood wind instruments, piccolo, obe, clarinet, etc. Many music conducted by Stokowski has his signature in the way he used these instruments too. Imo Stokowski likes to use the quiet gap between instrument inter play and transition to draw you into the music creating more enjoyable listening sensation.
We may think the system has so low noise floor as Al said. But I think it isn't really that. My system is not that quiet. Yours is definitely more quiet. I could hear small tube artifacts and often rfi from my right tweeter when I am two feet away from it. The vdh also exhibits the surface noise of vinyl more than other carts. My room surrounding also is a working environment with noises. Yet I still have this sensation of quietness and immediacy of sound. So here is my own conclusion. The nuance is what makes this two effects.
1) Nuance is taken away by absorption panel.
2) Many power cords take away nuance.
3) Many vibration management platform, footer, grounding boxes take away nuance.
(Sound comes from vibration. Audiophile like to kill vibration. Maybe we overkilled? Just a thought to provoke people to jump on me now.
)When nuance is there it lets you hear and feel the quietness of the time they were recording at the venue. We need all the nuance to hear the quietness the ambient of the recording venue. Natural reverb is only part of the ambient and easy to hear but there is something else too (not the coughing) that make up the sense of silence. Nuance also make super contrast of sound of each instrument. So between inter-play you can hear more swing, and out of quietness when a crescendo arise you hear more immediacy.
Peter, you got rid of 1-3. So to get these two aspect of sounds, given anyone has decent pieces of equipments, we do not even have to pay for it.
Another great post from Tang.
Without having to chalk it all up to air either; not even a single mention!
He’s right about sorta describing that hearing noise with ear right next to tweeter isn’t important - it’s really a hypochondriac paranoia of one’s stereo that if you find it then it is somehow intrusive to the music itself.
More on Scheherazade. Listen to the woodwind in Peter's video. Also the sound of each group of instrument during inter play. It is more intrinsically distinct and differentiated because there is no whitish sound that can be heard like from other videos of the same song. The woodwind sounds more hollowly dimensional like in the hall not just sound that make you realize what instrument is playing. Each woodwind can be better sensed in different location of the orchestra. Once the sound of each group of instrument is more differentiate less homogenous, the swing from one group of instrument to another by the conductor make listener follow the movement and enjoy how the conductor manure the play more. Excellent sound you have Peter. Excellent transparency too.
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