Sublime Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Interesting...where does your speaker roll-off in-room? I have never had my subs play much above 50hz EVER, even when we had Guarneris. I admit that i preferred to have the sub bass with the gap than have the 'full gap' below 50hz with only the main speaker's rolloff. Totally a personal preference of compromises.
I respect that you have demonstrated an extremely careful attention to detail, and could well be unhappy with my admittedly 'sloppier' approach of having the gap.
That said, i would have thought your speaker roll-off in-room would still be quite low.
LLoyd, Some frequency plots are shown in post #80. It is around mid 30s. I've tried all sorts of cut offs with the subs, different slopes, phase and volume. Perhaps I did not live with it long enough to really dial it in. I've posted in the past about Magico's opinion that subs are not recommended for use with their two way speakers. My discussions with them coupled with my own experience with subs in my room have convinced me to try a small three-way speaker before attempting to integrate subs again. I used to own a pair of Eggleston Rosa speakers which have a similar driver arrangement to the Magico Q3 and at that time I thought they overloaded the room slightly. However, that was before I had the ASC Tube Traps and more appropriate amplifiers, so I really don't know what a speaker like the Q3, S3II or the M3 would sound like in my room.
The other issue is that the Mini 2s just look so natural and right in both aesthetics and scale, that I am hesitant to try anything different. I also love the sound I'm getting now, so I don't think much will change very soon. I've reached a state of great satisfaction. I plan to address smaller things like power delivery and lowering the noise floor even further.
Most probably when you tried the JL Audio subs you did not have access to the JL Audio CR-1. I still did not have the time and conditions to play seriously with it, but the CR-1 is obliging me to re-consider subs again.
I invited my good friend and audio buddy, David, over for a listen the other night. He was kind to take the time to write down his listening impressions and to share them with me. With his permission, I post them here to give readers a sense of the effect of the most recent change to my system: the cleaning of all male and female contacts in my system with the DeoxIT Gold contact cleaner. Here is David's wonderfully descriptive write up of his listening impressions:
"Often I hear changes in your [Peter’s] system within a split second. This session was one of those times.
I believe it’s due to the very careful attention you —and Jim Smith— have paid to detail in setup and room amendments. It may also have something to do with how familiar I have become with your system over the years, a direct consequence of your generosity in so often hosting me as a listener. Either way, your system and room are so well tuned that changes are easily detected.
Immediately I felt a different sense of presence with the Janaki String Trio, showing specifically as a far superior rendition of the resonant sound boxes of the string instruments which sounded much more realistic, more whole-some than in the past.
Violin, in particular, was rendered in more balanced form. In the past, the resonance and texture of the violin has been represented almost exclusively by the sound of strings with a wee bit of wood from the instrument and occasionally the bow. This session revealed violins to sound as though their bodies were now a full and, in fact, commanding part of the instrument’s sound.
Using my audio axiom that you don't know what you've missed until you hear it, I have to say that I was unaware how little of the resonance of the wooden part of the violin was previously being added to the impression of string music. This change was not subtle; it was pronounced. I felt for the first time that I was listening to the entire instrument; strings, neck, body and bow. This was a revealing experience.
Another positive aspect of the system's change was extension. Lower frequencies, occasionally not thunderous in the past, were rendered with greater clarity, extension and convincing variety. It's been my experience that greater information in the 'low end' can result in an increased impression of tunefulness. (that's now officially a word) This time there was an impression of greater extension: more space around the string bass and noticeably greater information in texture, and sound —quality and amount— along with a commensurate improvement in wood texture from the bass’s sound chamber.
Extension was not limited to low frequencies. Switching to Way Out West introduced cymbals that showed their heels to past renditions: brass had both more of the kind of shimmer demonstrated by cymbals in live performance and a refinement of decay that forced me to smile and exclaim.
Saxaphone sound, one of Albrecht's reference points, again proved my axiom. I didn't know that previous renditions of sax had been colored --a little too saxy-- by which I mean the resonance sounded good, until we heard the post-treatment presentation which just sounded more real; less theatrical if you will. Specifically the bark of the horn came from a little way up into the horn and sounded very natural. I didn't know how much I was looking for a 'hi-fi sound' when listening to saxaphone, but this presentation set me straight.
Two other aspects of playback were also very substantially improved: the first, a solidification of the image, placed both Muddy Waters and Buddy Guy more solidly, or palpably, in the studio space than in past presentations. The second improvement is a little harder to describe because it involves the impression often described as 'sound stage' but it was more than that. Instruments sounded more solidly positioned in place but also this resulted in a more convincing 'presence' or palpability. I felt more cued by ambience than in the past which showed as a more vivid experience of being transported to the recording space, instead of feeling the musicians were in the room or that I was in a listening session.
Each one of these changes led, both individually and together, to a substantially stronger musicality in our listening session. I felt the music more. That's a direction I always prefer.
To that end, I would only add that the system’s presentation gave me a clearer and stronger, more convincing and refined sense of the performer’s intention in their crafting of performances. Peter has used the word ‘intelligibility’ and I feel this tweak presented the music, and the lntellect behind the musicians’ performance far more transparently. I have a friend who is a professional violinist. When she plays, I can hear her intention in each note —every single note. That’s what I take Peter to mean with the word ‘intelligibility’; that the intention, intellectual and spiritual, is easily discerned.
Despite the descriptive prose, throughout this session I felt liberated to feel the music, and revel in the performance and its intelligibility; sonic effects pushed me to this relatively rare and unfamiliar place. This was particularly evident on the Janaki String Trio LP, sounding to me as though I could hear them feeling, but also thinking their way through the performance while they played off each other at the same time.
This was a really memorable listening session, for all the right reasons: the music was varied, so it tested the system; the system became transparent to the music’s meaning and the musician’s thought and performance intentions, and the sonic effects, system wide, were made fully subservient to feeling the performance, the musician’s involvement and being transported to the venue.
I ordered the product, and hope it will provide the same degree of improvement in my system as it did in yours, Peter. Thank you, again, and thanks to Albrecht [Al M.] for finding and sharing this product. Can't wait to try it first hand.
It's a refinement, substantive, satisfying and brought more fun, intimacy, credibility and musicality to my experience of the music."
"Often I hear changes in your [Peter’s] system within a split second. This session was one of those times.
I believe it’s due to the very careful attention you —and Jim Smith— have paid to detail in setup and room amendments. It may also have something to do with how familiar I have become with your system over the years, a direct consequence of your generosity in so often hosting me as a listener. Either way, your system and room are so well tuned that changes are easily detected.
Immediately I felt a different sense of presence with the Janaki String Trio, showing specifically as a far superior rendition of the resonant sound boxes of the string instruments which sounded much more realistic, more whole-some than in the past.
Violin, in particular, was rendered in more balanced form. In the past, the resonance and texture of the violin has been represented almost exclusively by the sound of strings with a wee bit of wood from the instrument and occasionally the bow. This session revealed violins to sound as though their bodies were now a full and, in fact, commanding part of the instrument’s sound.
Using my audio axiom that you don't know what you've missed until you hear it, I have to say that I was unaware how little of the resonance of the wooden part of the violin was previously being added to the impression of string music. This change was not subtle; it was pronounced. I felt for the first time that I was listening to the entire instrument; strings, neck, body and bow. This was a revealing experience.
Another positive aspect of the system's change was extension. Lower frequencies, occasionally not thunderous in the past, were rendered with greater clarity, extension and convincing variety. It's been my experience that greater information in the 'low end' can result in an increased impression of tunefulness. (that's now officially a word) This time there was an impression of greater extension: more space around the string bass and noticeably greater information in texture, and sound —quality and amount— along with a commensurate improvement in wood texture from the bass’s sound chamber.
Extension was not limited to low frequencies. Switching to Way Out West introduced cymbals that showed their heels to past renditions: brass had both more of the kind of shimmer demonstrated by cymbals in live performance and a refinement of decay that forced me to smile and exclaim.
Saxaphone sound, one of Albrecht's reference points, again proved my axiom. I didn't know that previous renditions of sax had been colored --a little too saxy-- by which I mean the resonance sounded good, until we heard the post-treatment presentation which just sounded more real; less theatrical if you will. Specifically the bark of the horn came from a little way up into the horn and sounded very natural. I didn't know how much I was looking for a 'hi-fi sound' when listening to saxaphone, but this presentation set me straight.
Two other aspects of playback were also very substantially improved: the first, a solidification of the image, placed both Muddy Waters and Buddy Guy more solidly, or palpably, in the studio space than in past presentations. The second improvement is a little harder to describe because it involves the impression often described as 'sound stage' but it was more than that. Instruments sounded more solidly positioned in place but also this resulted in a more convincing 'presence' or palpability. I felt more cued by ambience than in the past which showed as a more vivid experience of being transported to the recording space, instead of feeling the musicians were in the room or that I was in a listening session.
Each one of these changes led, both individually and together, to a substantially stronger musicality in our listening session. I felt the music more. That's a direction I always prefer.
To that end, I would only add that the system’s presentation gave me a clearer and stronger, more convincing and refined sense of the performer’s intention in their crafting of performances. Peter has used the word ‘intelligibility’ and I feel this tweak presented the music, and the lntellect behind the musicians’ performance far more transparently. I have a friend who is a professional violinist. When she plays, I can hear her intention in each note —every single note. That’s what I take Peter to mean with the word ‘intelligibility’; that the intention, intellectual and spiritual, is easily discerned.
Despite the descriptive prose, throughout this session I felt liberated to feel the music, and revel in the performance and its intelligibility; sonic effects pushed me to this relatively rare and unfamiliar place. This was particularly evident on the Janaki String Trio LP, sounding to me as though I could hear them feeling, but also thinking their way through the performance while they played off each other at the same time.
This was a really memorable listening session, for all the right reasons: the music was varied, so it tested the system; the system became transparent to the music’s meaning and the musician’s thought and performance intentions, and the sonic effects, system wide, were made fully subservient to feeling the performance, the musician’s involvement and being transported to the venue.
I ordered the product, and hope it will provide the same degree of improvement in my system as it did in yours, Peter. Thank you, again, and thanks to Albrecht [Al M.] for finding and sharing this product. Can't wait to try it first hand.
It's a refinement, substantive, satisfying and brought more fun, intimacy, credibility and musicality to my experience of the music."
nice write-up by your friend, Peter! you got to be loving how it's sounding. congrats!
I've had a bottle of DeoxIT Gold contact cleaner sitting in my 'tweak' cabinet for years since I used it last. time to blow the dust off it and get to work. thanks for the kick start.
edit---I just grabbed the bottle of DeoxIT Gold, I also have a bottle 'CAIG' 'ProGold'.......does anyone know how these two differ? they are both red fluid that are said to be contact treatments.
I've had a bottle of DeoxIT Gold contact cleaner sitting in my 'tweak' cabinet for years since I used it last. time to blow the dust off it and get to work. thanks for the kick start.
edit---I just grabbed the bottle of DeoxIT Gold, I also have a bottle 'CAIG' 'ProGold'.......does anyone know how these two differ? they are both red fluid that are said to be contact treatments.
Curiously I went through the same doubt recently: http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.178/.f
Fortunately I did not post finding that one of them created a night and day audible difference in my system compared with the other!
Probably these products have a limited shelf life - I would not use vintage bottles in my system without inquiring.
Thanks for your comments, John and Mike. Micro, I only have the current product and was not aware of a change. Thanks.
My friend David is very eloquent and it is a joy to listen to him discuss what he hears from an audio system. It is about the sound, but he often discusses the emotional impact also, which is what really matters to me. When a change can do that, it is all good.
My friend David is very eloquent and it is a joy to listen to him discuss what he hears from an audio system. It is about the sound, but he often discusses the emotional impact also, which is what really matters to me. When a change can do that, it is all good.
This week I had the pleasure of hearing Peter's system again. We listened to the Brahms Double Concerto for violin, cello and orchestra (Szeryng/Starker/Haitink/Amsterdam Concertgebouw), Ray Brown/Laurindo Almeida Direct-to-Disc (double bass/acoustic guitar) and Beethoven's Kreutzer Sonata for violin and piano (Heifetz/Smith).
Everything sounded great, with enhanced resolution due to the Deoxit contact cleaning and treatment. What in particular impressed me was the sound of the solo violin in the Brahms and Beethoven. It was extraordinary -- sublime indeed. The violin sound had a life-like realism that is rarely heard in audio reproduction. The tone of the violin was significantly improved over what I had heard before in Peter's system, highly resolved, and very believable. In post # 167 on the previous thread page, our friend David's beautifully written observations speak to that. Transients were incisive; there certainly was no false 'fluidity' to the music. Rather, in conjunction with the effortless dynamics, the true flow of the composition and interpretation of the music appeared to be conveyed.
What struck me most was the life-like nature of those transients on the violin. They were fast, but the speed did not draw attention to itself. Nothing was unnaturally emphasized or de-emphasized, it just sounded right. After Deoxit contact cleaning and treatment (like Peter did), I now enjoy in my own system a resolution of the timbral texture of solo violin sound, with its micro-oscillations, that simply astonishes me and that I had not thought possible with my components, and transients are fast as well. Yet I do not quite hear the level of naturalness in my system, neither of tone nor of transients, as I do in Peter's. The sound in his system goes one step further. On the surface the differences might appear subtle, but the greater degree of believability of sound is not. The effect of realism of violin sound in Peter's system was simply stunning. It was an enormously enjoyable and addictive experience. We listened to the Brahms and Beethoven works in their entirety.
Thanks for an enjoyable evening, Peter, and congratulations on yet another step forward with your system!
Everything sounded great, with enhanced resolution due to the Deoxit contact cleaning and treatment. What in particular impressed me was the sound of the solo violin in the Brahms and Beethoven. It was extraordinary -- sublime indeed. The violin sound had a life-like realism that is rarely heard in audio reproduction. The tone of the violin was significantly improved over what I had heard before in Peter's system, highly resolved, and very believable. In post # 167 on the previous thread page, our friend David's beautifully written observations speak to that. Transients were incisive; there certainly was no false 'fluidity' to the music. Rather, in conjunction with the effortless dynamics, the true flow of the composition and interpretation of the music appeared to be conveyed.
What struck me most was the life-like nature of those transients on the violin. They were fast, but the speed did not draw attention to itself. Nothing was unnaturally emphasized or de-emphasized, it just sounded right. After Deoxit contact cleaning and treatment (like Peter did), I now enjoy in my own system a resolution of the timbral texture of solo violin sound, with its micro-oscillations, that simply astonishes me and that I had not thought possible with my components, and transients are fast as well. Yet I do not quite hear the level of naturalness in my system, neither of tone nor of transients, as I do in Peter's. The sound in his system goes one step further. On the surface the differences might appear subtle, but the greater degree of believability of sound is not. The effect of realism of violin sound in Peter's system was simply stunning. It was an enormously enjoyable and addictive experience. We listened to the Brahms and Beethoven works in their entirety.
Thanks for an enjoyable evening, Peter, and congratulations on yet another step forward with your system!
Thank you for taking the time to write down your impressions, Al. It is always fun to share listening time with you and the rest of the Boston group. Perhaps you enjoyed the other night more because we had such a good dinner before hand. Regardless, I think we learn a lot from hearing each others' systems and from discussing various changes. It is all in good fun. I have thought about the transients and getting the right balance with decay and the rest of the note, the completeness of the note, if you will. First, I think the system must be capable or extracting the information from the medium and then not corrupting it too much by the time we hear it. I have found that for greater satisfaction, I must adjust my VTA for different LPs leading precisely to this balance of the portrayal of the complete note as long as the system is developed well enough to get you there. Then the recording has to be good. On those rare occasions when all is working as intended, the sound can be sublime indeed.
You speak of the latest changes, but if one follows this thread, it is clear that I have been sweating the small stuff for steady and incremental improvements over time. I have not made any major component changes in quite some time. I look forward to our next meeting.
You speak of the latest changes, but if one follows this thread, it is clear that I have been sweating the small stuff for steady and incremental improvements over time. I have not made any major component changes in quite some time. I look forward to our next meeting.
You're welcome, Peter. I am not sure the good dinner explains my great enjoyment, because we listened to the first part of the Brahms prior to it...
Yes, and the results have often been astonishing.
Peter, after long thinking about your results, I tried Caig Deoxit D25L on my speaker wire spades and speaker/amp connections. I applied via a q tip then wiped pretty good with Caig polypropylene cloth squares. I've long used Kontak (well over 10 years) and likely had last cleaned these connections about 2-3 months ago.
Listened first of course. Then put the amps in mute. Cleaned the contacts ~10 min later turned back on sat down to press play on my digital. First thought, someone change up the volume up one click. I could clearly here the details better. It's a bigger difference that Kontak seems to make from my memory. So I'm officially switching to Caig.
Thanks for bringing this all to important topic up !
Listened first of course. Then put the amps in mute. Cleaned the contacts ~10 min later turned back on sat down to press play on my digital. First thought, someone change up the volume up one click. I could clearly here the details better. It's a bigger difference that Kontak seems to make from my memory. So I'm officially switching to Caig.
Thanks for bringing this all to important topic up !
Peter, after long thinking about your results, I tried Caig Deoxit D25L on my speaker wire spades and speaker/amp connections. I applied via a q tip then wiped pretty good with Caig polypropylene cloth squares. I've long used Kontak (well over 10 years) and likely had last cleaned these connections about 2-3 months ago.
Listened first of course. Then put the amps in mute. Cleaned the contacts ~10 min later turned back on sat down to press play on my digital. First thought, someone change up the volume up one click. I could clearly here the details better. It's a bigger difference that Kontak seems to make from my memory. So I'm officially switching to Caig.
Thanks for bringing this all to important topic up !
Listened first of course. Then put the amps in mute. Cleaned the contacts ~10 min later turned back on sat down to press play on my digital. First thought, someone change up the volume up one click. I could clearly here the details better. It's a bigger difference that Kontak seems to make from my memory. So I'm officially switching to Caig.
Thanks for bringing this all to important topic up !
Your system and room are beautiful, I love the traditional room and furniture complemented with more contemporary audio equipment. Maybe it's the wood of the speakers and rack that bridge the time gap and make it all work so well. I have a similar DIY birch rack but yours is certainly more substantial.
WRT your setup and subs you have quite a live and moderate size room so managing low freq via a sub + placement would be quite challenging as you've experienced. However, implementing a sealed sub (like your recent try with a JL Audio) and a CR-1 would be one of the best ways to integrate speakers and sub in any room but likely moreso in your room. I'm also curious if you experimented with plugging the fireplace (maybe only when listening?) with a bass trap?
Thank you for the kind words, sbo6. Achieving the right aesthetic balance in my listening room has been quite a challenge. The birch ply aesthetic of the rack and amp stands follows the look of the speakers. I place a heavy furniture blanket over the fireplace mantle while listening. I remove it only when guests come over for dinner parties. I have never tried to plug the fireplace opening, but the blanket helped clean up the sound pretty dramatically. The whole room is a compromise as you can imagine, but it is a pleasant place to listen to music.
Right now I don't plan to try any more sub woofer integration experiments. Perhaps I will revisit it some day, but I am satisfied with the sound now not to look for any major component upgrades for the foreseeable future. The room is actually not that lively. I have either covered or removed all glass surfaces, the rug and pad are very thick and the two chairs, sofa and Tube Traps do a good job of absorbing reflections. The walls are 200 year old plaster and lathe.
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