Sublime Sound

[ddk]

I think it does warrant further attention because the blanket is kind of ugly and I agree there are probably better acoustic solutions available. What do you mean by "a primitive root diffusor"? I have thought about some plugs like the ones Al uses. The idea about a sub in the fireplace is pretty wild, but I would have to come up with an alternative for when we light a fire, as we may do this evening for a cocktail party.

Here's an example of a primitive root diffuser, you can buy or build them. I'm not familiar with Al's plugs so I don't know if they absorb or diffuse, I make a version myself and then build the diffusers on top. You can paint or stain the wood to match your surroundings and can even look like art.



For the subs all you need is solid piece of plywood with cutouts for the drivers, you just place it in front of the fireplace for music and move them out of the way to use the fireplace. We used magnets to make adding and removing easy for one of my clients, the bass he got using his fireplace was phenomenal.

david

 

[PeterA]

Here's an example of a primitive root diffuser, you can buy or build them. I'm not familiar with Al's plugs so I don't know if they absorb or diffuse, I make a version myself and then build the diffusers on top. You can paint or stain the wood to match your surroundings and can even look like art.

View attachment 30053

For the subs all you need is solid piece of plywood with cutouts for the drivers, you just place it in front of the fireplace for music and move them out of the way to use the fireplace. We used magnets to make adding and removing easy for one of my clients, the bass he got using his fireplace was phenomenal.

david

David, I've tried Acoustic Revive diffuser panels in front of my fireplace, but I preferred absorption there because I want the fireplace/mantle structure protruding into my room to disappear so that I get a deeper soundstage. I find that it effects images, clarity and the solidity of the soundstaging. I might revisit it though.

Adding subs in the opening is a fascinating idea, but then one still has the issue of that large protruding structure messing with the soundstage. I like the DIY aspect to it. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give it some more thought.

 

[Al M.]

Yesterday Peter invited me to listen to the newest changes. I thought, it can't be that the removal of the glass, which doesn't cover that much surface, makes so much difference. At least not as much difference as for me, who naturally has less experience with his system than Peter himself, to be able to clearly point it out, while he probably could do that much more easily. So I was already looking for a polite way to say that alas the sonic improvement wasn't that clear to me . I didn't need to have worried: it was absolutely pathetic how obvious the differences were.

I asked Peter if tonearm settings had changed -- which he answered in the negative -- because I heard a significantly different sound. Now I understand Peter's enthusiasm about the acoustic changes.

Art Pepper+Eleven: we could crank up the volume more because it was so free of distortion. While I had admired the rendition of that LP on Peter's system before, in terms of explosive dynamics, incredible and infectious rhythm & timing, and the resolution of the brass section, this was even better. Before the changes I observed that Art's sax tended to overpower the brass section because at times it was blaring. Now it was much cleaner, and the subjective balance had shifted in favor of more prominence of the brass band while Art was still very much upfront, a true frontman. The sound was very open, significantly more than the last time, and the timbral resolution of the brass section was even better, to a jaw-dropping level. Yet the brass, solo or grouped, still had great natural bite, which to me is really important.

Gidon Kremer/Elena Kremer, violin and piano, Philips LP: While I had always admired the resolution of the micro-oscillations from the instrument's tone on the recording, I had had some reservations about the overall timbre. Now the timbre was much more complete, and thus convincing. What most had been lacking was high-frequency extension and airiness. Now the high frequencies seemed to extend forever (of course they didn't, but you get the idea). That high frequency extension must also have contributed to the more open sound on Art Pepper+Eleven. Interesting that sometimes in a less reflective environment you can get more high frequency extension! The sound was effortlessly 'fast', as it had been on Art Pepper+Eleven as well. It was also, again, very clean. Sometimes only the removal of distortion makes you aware of how much there had been before.

Another significant improvement in the reproduction of that LP was ambient retrieval. Now you could clearly hear the halo of hall resonance, which previously had only been alluded to in a fuzzy manner, and that dying out of the last note as just subtle echo in the hall acoustic was spectacular. The removal of acoustic noise from the room, which earlier had masked the potential for reproduction of low-level spatial information, now revealed the enormously low noise floor of the Pass electronics.

Finally, I heard an, apparently famous, choir recording. At first a soprano where you could clearly hear the acoustics of the church in which it was recorded, and then Stille Nacht (Silent Night) from the choir. The openness and naturalness of the sound was remarkable, and the resolution of the individual choir voices was outrageously good. Just stunning.

By a mile the best sound I have heard from Peter's system. It was impressive and immensely enjoyable.

***

This experience shows again how important the removal of glass is from your listening room and, if windows are still needed, the lamination of window glass like they have it in recording studios (Peter's windows are laminated, and covered by wooden blinds). Also for my system/room the insertion of ASC window plugs in the windows showed just how much the window resonances had blurred resolution of the sound before, to a rather severe extent.

Sometimes acoustic upgrades are more important than electronic ones. And if you get lucky, they may not cost you anything, like it was for Peter with the removal of the glass surfaces from the paintings and the covering of the cabinet glass.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Al, great feedback on Peter's system.

as one tunes more room surfaces and the reflective distortion is reduced/eliminated other items of opportunity become more obvious. I'll keep watching for the next 'ah ha' moment.

Peter, congrats on the step forward!

 

[microstrip]

(...) This experience shows again how important the removal of glass is from your listening room and, if windows are still needed, the lamination of window glass like they have it in recording studios (Peter's windows are laminated, and covered by wooden blinds). Also for my system/room the insertion of ASC window plugs in the windows showed just how much the window resonances had blurred resolution of the sound before, to a rather severe extent.
(...)

You are addressing an important aspect, that I never thought about. I do not find such large differences when listening with closed or open solid wood interior shutters in my room, but as my listening room is ground floor the windows are double laminated, using extra thick anti-theft glass.

BTW, a good think of SoundLabs is that you have a curved very large area (more than thirty square feet) direct radiating sound source and become much less sensitive to small area reflections.

 

[bonzo75]

Another local audiophile mentioned to me that he had treated his windows with some sort of acrylic. It was low cost, but he said it was the best treatment he did. He also said it kept out outside noise. I will confirm details when I meet him again.

 

[PeterA]

Yesterday Peter invited me to listen to the newest changes. I thought, it can't be that the removal of the glass, which doesn't cover that much surface, makes so much difference. At least not as much difference as for me, who naturally has less experience with his system than Peter himself, to be able to clearly point it out, while he probably could do that much more easily. So I was already looking for a polite way to say that alas the sonic improvement wasn't that clear to me . I didn't need to have worried: it was absolutely pathetic how obvious the differences were.

I asked Peter if tonearm settings had changed -- which he answered in the negative -- because I heard a significantly different sound. Now I understand Peter's enthusiasm about the acoustic changes.

Art Pepper+Eleven: we could crank up the volume more because it was so free of distortion. While I had admired the rendition of that LP on Peter's system before, in terms of explosive dynamics, incredible and infectious rhythm & timing, and the resolution of the brass section, this was even better. Before the changes I observed that Art's sax tended to overpower the brass section because at times it was blaring. Now it was much cleaner, and the subjective balance had shifted in favor of more prominence of the brass band while Art was still very much upfront, a true frontman. The sound was very open, significantly more than the last time, and the timbral resolution of the brass section was even better, to a jaw-dropping level. Yet the brass, solo or grouped, still had great natural bite, which to me is really important.

Gidon Kremer/Elena Kremer, violin and piano, Philips LP: While I had always admired the resolution of the micro-oscillations from the instrument's tone on the recording, I had had some reservations about the overall timbre. Now the timbre was much more complete, and thus convincing. What most had been lacking was high-frequency extension and airiness. Now the high frequencies seemed to extend forever (of course they didn't, but you get the idea). That high frequency extension must also have contributed to the more open sound on Art Pepper+Eleven. Interesting that sometimes in a less reflective environment you can get more high frequency extension! The sound was effortlessly 'fast', as it had been on Art Pepper+Eleven as well. It was also, again, very clean. Sometimes only the removal of distortion makes you aware of how much there had been before.

Another significant improvement in the reproduction of that LP was ambient retrieval. Now you could clearly hear the halo of hall resonance, which previously had only been alluded to in a fuzzy manner, and that dying out of the last note as just subtle echo in the hall acoustic was spectacular. The removal of acoustic noise from the room, which earlier had masked the potential for reproduction of low-level spatial information, now revealed the enormously low noise floor of the Pass electronics.

Finally, I heard an, apparently famous, choir recording. At first a soprano where you could clearly hear the acoustics of the church in which it was recorded, and then Stille Nacht (Silent Night) from the choir. The openness and naturalness of the sound was remarkable, and the resolution of the individual choir voices was outrageously good. Just stunning.

By a mile the best sound I have heard from Peter's system. It was impressive and immensely enjoyable.

Hi Al,

Thanks for posting your thoughts from the other night on my system thread. Perhaps it is because I live with the system and have been experimenting a lot lately with positioning and room treatments, (sweating the small stuff for big gains), it is astonishing how much difference there is from simply removing that glass. The reflections created a noise or distortion which masked fine detail, restricted high frequency extension, timbral accuracy and low level information. The sound is more open and free now. It sounds more natural. The sound is also more transparent and more revealing of the quality of the components. There is less sound from the room and system, exposing more of what is on the LP.

I appreciate hearing your perspective or impression of the sound. It is all about enjoying the music and making adjustments toward that end. I’m glad you had such a great time the other night.

Here is that choral music:

 

[Al M.]

Hi Al,

Thanks for posting your thoughts from the other night on my system thread.

You're welcome, Peter.

I’m glad you had such a great time the other night.

Yes I did, thank you for an enjoyable evening!

 

[Al M.]

You are addressing an important aspect, that I never thought about. I do not find such large differences when listening with closed or open solid wood interior shutters in my room, but as my listening room is ground floor the windows are double laminated, using extra thick anti-theft glass.

BTW, a good think of SoundLabs is that you have a curved very large area (more than thirty square feet) direct radiating sound source and become much less sensitive to small area reflections.

Great that you have laminated windows. It's not just about reflections, but also about vibrations. From the ASC window plug flyer (emphasis mine):

The windows are generally lightweight, large and easily stimulated into plate vibrations. These vibrations continue to vibrate long after the musical dynamic is over. The end result is sonic blur and sound masking. Also, for accurate bass reproduction, acoustically soft windows must not be located near the speakers.

The experience of diminished resolution of sound in the room, which Peter and I have perceived from vibrating glass (or rather the enhanced resolution from lack thereof), correlates well with this idea of sonic blur and sound masking.

 

[PeterA]

After hearing what the DeoxIT spray did for Al M.'s system, I ordered a bottle of DeoxIT Gold G100L with brush on applicator. I completely dismantled my system and first cleaned all connections (male and female) with alcohol, wiped dry, and then brushed on a very thin layer of DeoxIT on all connections. It took over two hours. It also gave me a chance to dust and clean my rack and all gear. I've learned that once the Pass preamp and phono are unplugged, they take a couple of days to sound their best again. So I will keep everything powered on and listen for a few days. I'm sorry to read that it may take up to a week to fully settle.

 

[PeterA]

Well, it has been a couple of days since I took apart my system and cleaned all of the male and female connections with DeoxIT Gold contact cleaner. When I listened shortly after reassembling the system, I heard slightly more resolution and clarity in the upper frequencies but the bass was pretty weak. A day later I could hear the potential of greater resolution all around but it was not until later today, two full days later, that the system is sounding good again. Resolution has certainly improved, along with cleaner highs, and more overall clarity. Dynamics have improved slightly, the bass is fuller, more extended and has more weight. Ray Brown's bass lines are easier to hear. String textures have improved. Timbral accuracy makes the members of a string quartet sound more distinct and separate. Saxophones are reedier. Trombones have more blat. I had a friend over this afternoon and he remarked that the musical message comes through more clearly than before. One hears "more" content but what is really neat is that the musician's intent seems to be more understandable. Overall sound is more natural resulting in less listening to the system and more listening to the music.

Along with the recent removal of glass from the artwork in my listening room, this tweak has made the biggest improvement in the last few years to my slowly evolving system. It is similar to a cartridge/arm being properly aligned instead of poorly set up. Everything just sounds more in focus and like music. It sounds more correct, less veiled. For about $32 and the time it took to apply it, I feel as though the system has a new freshness and is more involving. That is saying a lot as far as I'm concerned. It's a very worthwhile improvement. I have auditioned cables, cartridges, and electronics that did not make this much of an improvement. Different certainly, but not clearly better. This is clearly better. Thank you Al M. for encouraging me to try it.

I hope this does not attract the attention of Ron's Hyperbole Police.

 

[NorthStar]

Thx Peter. This is something I also need to do. I was going to buy a new pair of loudspeakers ($100,000) but I'll try this first. :b
I'll let you know...

I am humorous of course on new speakers, but not on cleaning all audio connectors; it is good custom.

 

[PeterA]

Here are some new photos showing similar images, but of slightly better quality:

 

[PeterA]

 

[LL21]

PeterA,

Great photos and admire the careful way everything is setup, neatly stacked, and everything well isolated. Looking now at the various photos and remembering your comments about not being happy with any attempts to integrate a Sub...i have to say (as a total non-techie who has lived with subs in the system since 1993), i could intuitively see why. Your room appears to be extremely carefully setup with speakers that are, i believe, capable of incredibly powerful performance with big power behind them (which you have). The room also has a lot of equipment, beautiful furniture lining the walls (probably well damped but not too damped)...the fireplace wall seems potentially quite solid/dense.

Tough to get a sub in there without having its waves 'roar' around the room. I am actually 'guessing' the placement of a sub might be between the piano and the underwater sea helmet (very cool by the way)...firing out. And actually keep it incredibly low volume and low crossover...low to almost silent. Yes, it might seem like a waste (and might well be in your room)...but intuitively that is all that i can think of from looking at your great shots of your room. Once settled in, with that 'waste of low volume', you might get a surprisingly satisfying 'extra bit of pulse' at the low end. For a bass freak, that can be the crowning touch. For others, as i said 'a waste'.

 

[BruceD]

Agree lovely system kudos!

BruceD

 

[LL21]

In our room, we have the sub set on 14 (out of 99 or whatever)...and in a much bigger room than we had before (40' x 15'-19' x 11'). (Before, we were 30'x17x7.5'...and the shorter ceiling made a big difference...really forced us to bring the sub volume down else the bass 'roared')...and we were set at volume 8.)

Anyway, now, when we mute the Gryphon amp, there are often times we hear nothing...but on certain tracks every 1 second or so (or whatever the beat is) you will get just a soft chest thump.

Most interestingly, on classical recordings you may feel (and barely hear) a sense of super-deep ambient 'space' in the room...it seems to let your ears think there is 'vast space' or something in the room...there are cues or whatever that draw your ear 'out...way out of the bounds of the room'. Its weird...and then as soon as you click off the sub, your ear immediately goes back to the audio cues actually in the room (whir of a laptop, or the sound of your own movement in the room...and the room IMMEDIATELY SNAPS BACK TO 'TINY' from the Sub's 'cavernous cues'. Kind of a cool effect which is what makes live jazz recordings or classical make us feel like our system has transported us to a different venue.

It really was apparent on Brubeck live once when as soon as the CD stopped, the jazz venue disappeared, and i was sorta shocked we were just sitting in our room...i hit play again since i was working, just to see if i was imagining it...and as soon as it we did...the sense of jazz venue space opened up before us again. That was largely the sub, not as much the main speakers...because when I muted the Sub, the venue also 'snapped back' to comparatively 'flat' on that same Brubeck Recording (the one sponsored by Starbucks where it was actually played/recorded 'unannounced' in an Upper West Side Starbucks...great recording/album.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The room looks beautiful, Peter, and the equipment looks very carefully thought out and well-tuned!

 

[bonzo75]

The SME pics are awesome

 

[PeterA]

Lloyd, Thanks for the comments. I think before I would try subs again, I would try to audition a small pair of three way speakers in my room. I've tried subs twice, once with two JL Audio F110s, and more recently with one REL sub borrowed from a friend. The low frequencies are tough in my room, perhaps because of the low ceiling and also the suspended floor. The plaster and lathe walls are very good acoustically, but the two alcoves to either side of the fireplace trap pressure. But perhaps even more problematic is the gap between the low sub frequencies and the Mini midrange driver. If I try to lesson the gap, the sub output is too great. If I lower the sub, the gap comes back. I know what you are describing about the sense of venue and deep space. I would love more of that, but I am restricted to the room I have. As it is, my wife is a saint for allowing me to take over our living room with all of this audio gear. God bless her.