Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Rhapsody]

Thank you, Bob!
I will test.

I was REALLY surprised at my results. I had been using Startech FO converters running 50' of FO cable for the last few years. I would have made a heavy bet that I had "optimized" my network because I was using FO.

Then because of THIS THREAD and some discussing that they preferred copper over the FO I thought why not give it a try, it didn't cost anything. I was shocked when I tried the copper. I went back and forth for a week and ended up with the copper connections vs. the FO.

I think it really depends on the rest of the system AND personal preference. The FO was not bad at all in my system, it's just that the copper sound was preferential to my ears.

 

[wil]

As someone with only the most shallow experience with networking, my attempt to understand Bob's experience with the addition of the Ubiquiti Edge router is challenging.

First, to get a 25% improvement in perceived noise related sound quality benefits by simply adding another router after the noisy and busy Version router is phenomenal. Can anyone share what the technical explanation for this would be? Isn't adding another router (the Edge) inline after the Version router just routing all that noise downstream to the next router?

Second, wouldn't a switch which is designed to filter and isolate noise from the Version be more effective than the Edge router?

In my system, from my ATT modem I run ethernet to a Netgear router for all non audio stuff and home wifi. For the audio, I have a second line: ethernet > fmc > 100' fiber > fmc > ethernet > switch>>>. The idea, partially, is to optically isolate all the junk on the Netgear router from the Audio signal.

Trying to understand this in context of what Bob is doing....

 

[Rhapsody]

As someone with only the most shallow experience with networking, my attempt to understand Bob's experience with the addition of the Ubiquiti Edge router is challenging.

First, to get a 25% improvement in perceived noise related sound quality benefits by simply adding another router after the noisy and busy Version router is phenomenal. Can anyone share what the technical explanation for this would be? Isn't adding another router (the Edge) inline after the Version router just routing all that noise downstream to the next router?

Second, wouldn't a switch which is designed to filter and isolate noise from the Version be more effective than the Edge router?

In my system, from my ATT modem I run ethernet to a Netgear router for all non audio stuff and home wifi. For the audio, I have a second line: ethernet > fmc > 100' fiber > fmc > ethernet > switch>>>. The idea, partially, is to optically isolate all the junk on the Netgear router from the Audio signal.

Trying to understand this in context of what Bob is doing....

Hi Wil,

What Bob is doing is experimenting I have the JCAT switch coming in a few days. At that point I will try the JCAT switch between the Verizon Router, which I have to keep for TV reasons, and the Extreme.

I was curios about the Edge router. A cheap diversion for $100. As I said earlier it is probably a combination of the "good sounding" Edge router AND me isolating the Edge router as a dedicated switch that is not sharing resource from all of the busy connections on the Verizon router.

I literally have 20 devices on my network, my situation is going to be different than most.

I am very interested in any "good ideas". Isolating the JCAT or Edge router from the Verizon router, trying copper instead of FO, cutting out a 50' run of copper or FO, which I was originally using, LPS's for my routers ALL came from suggestions or listening to others experiences basically from this thread.

With these network changes, I can't even describe the up-lift in sonic quality. It boggles my mind.

So Bob is experimenting with his network and drastically improving the sonics while doing so. Looking forward to the JCAT arrival and the LPS for the Edge router. That will be good for a few days of experimentation.

 

[Rhapsody]

I have to say that I am totally amazed that the sonic differences that occur with changes on the network side of the overall system/room equation. I understand this is old news to many, personally I was oblivious to the network side of the equation.

Now I realize that just like sp. cables, ic's, pc's, vibration control, room acoustics etc, which can all be tailored to one's preference, when creating their system, the network variables can make just as much difference. More tuning/voicing tools. The great part is sonic up-ticks can be had for minimal $$$ with the network devices/cables.

My recent experiences have shown me that there is no "right" way to do the network side. As long as you are using the appropriate type devices and cables then you might be able to optimize your system to your liking by selecting copper vs. fiber or which switch or router to use. They all sound different and in different combinations in different network set-ups, in different systems they are going to possibly react differently as well.

My comments are offered for anyone that was like me regarding the network side of the equation. Emile, Romaz and MANY others have been through this discovery process long ago. I get that. But just like having people become aware of how important servers are, the network side vs the connection to the dac it's good for anyone that is interested to hear that they might want to explore their network possibilities, especially with streaming.

Stay safe.

 

[ctydwn]

Thank you @Rhapsody for sharing your journey and findings on the 'network side'. Your input in conjunction with others' experiences and expertise on this thread definitely helps me and I imagine others gauge options to experiment with, and hopefully optimize, their incoming connection to the Extreme/to music. I really appreciate your passion. Please take care everyone.

 

[nuway]

Many thanks for sharing. I also isolate my dirty router as follow: ATT fiber modem > short Ethernet cable > EMO EN-70E filter > Short Ethernet Cable > Dirty Router (Printers, Wi-fi, TV, Home theather, etc)

 

[Blackmorec]

Regarding your upstream network optimization, this is exactly what I mentioned during the very early stages of this thread. It was claimed then that the Extreme was different and immune to such improvements but that has now proven not to be the case, so its worth reiterating some other experiences.
Isolating the digital stream via an additional router is highly beneficial, but that’s not the only possible improvement....far from it!
The quality of the power supplies used to power the network seem to have a direct relationship to the SQ. I started with Sean Jacob’s DC2, which brought a profound uplift in SQ. The move the DC3s with Mundorf caps resulted in an improvement of similar magnitude. I will soon upgrade all PSs to DC4 rectification and transformers.
The quality of the DC cables used to connect those power supplies has a profound impact on SQ. Ghent Audio Neotech JSSG360 cables brought substantial increases in SQ, but Nenon’s topologically similarly built cables based on Mundorf Sliver/Gold wire brought jaw dropping improvements over and above the Neotech cables
The quality of cables used in the network supply also has a major effect....anywhere in the chain.
Finally vibration control of modems, switches, power supplies all bring their own incremental improvements.
So how good can all this get? Frankly I am now at the point where the standard descriptions of hi-fi related benefits no longer describes the type of improvements I’m hearing. Instead I need to describe the improvements in terms of the soul of the music, the overwhelming sense of being at the recording venue with real musicians playing real instruments and of course the responses of the listener. So far I have not found a limit to the level of improvements possible. Each time i improve the power supply chain, vibration control, cables screening etc. I get corresponding jumps in performance...improvements that invoke expletives. I have not heard a system built around an Extreme but in my system I have never actually heard a system in 40 years of going to shows and various dealer showroom around the World that approaches the level of involvement and complete immersion I’m now hearing. But there is a problem with all this so beware!!! In the last 2 years I have spent most of the time waiting for some component or another to run in, so you either need to do a lot of upgrades together or you need to set some limits and enjoy the results. I have become somewhat addicted to these constant improvements and at some point I need to stop....its just very hard to find that point when each step brings the levels of improvement you read about in this thread

 

[Taiko Audio]

I'm waiting for this damn lock down to pass Emile. I've been on pins and needles to get to a couple different Extreme owners houses to get to experience this. Can't wait

Looking forward to your thoughts, very much so!

 

[Taiko Audio]

I don't think there is a "best" way.

My experience has shown it is best to try both (FO and copper) and see which one sounds better to your ears. In my set up(s) the FO and the copper sounded different. The great part is you can do this fairly inexpensively.

Indeed, I am collecting data points from Extreme owners feedback on the subject while simulating their experiences in software. A very elaborate work in progress but the picture is becoming clearer.

 

[Taiko Audio]

It was claimed then that the Extreme was different and immune to such improvements but that has now proven not to be the case, so its worth reiterating some other experiences.

Where was that claimed? I am only aware of a claim of reduced sensitivity to packet processing due to the dual CPU architecture as OS network traffic processing can be handled by a different CPU then the one dedicated to running audio processes.

Isolating the digital stream via an additional router is highly beneficial, but that’s not the only possible improvement....far from it!

Isolation is highly debatable, you are for sure exchanging one type of noise for another, which is fine of course if it nets out positive. Noise patterns induced by fiber are very different from copper. Mix/match and tune to taste

While on the subject, anybody noticing a sound degradation from charging your iPhone/iPad in your listening room? We just had an interesting experience where we exchanged our coffee machine with a negative impact on sound quality. But then again the noise floor, with most businesses in the area closed down, is dramatically lower then usual.

 

[Taiko Audio]

What Bob is doing is experimenting I have the JCAT switch coming in a few days. At that point I will try the JCAT switch between the Verizon Router, which I have to keep for TV reasons, and the Extreme.

You may like to have some fiber in the chain somewhere again when it does

 

[Rhapsody]

You may like to have some fiber in the chain somewhere again when it does

And the fun part that it is so easy to try, I already have the FO set ups. I definitely will try it, but I in concept I don't like the idea of adding two Media converters with a short run of FO as I now have my modem/routers/JCAT close to the Extreme. But as I have found out, you don't know for sure unless you try it. So I will.

 

[Rhapsody]

Many thanks for sharing. I also isolate my dirty router as follow: ATT fiber modem > short Ethernet cable > EMO EN-70E filter > Short Ethernet Cable > Dirty Router (Printers, Wi-fi, TV, Home theather, etc)

Hi Nuway, Thx. So you are using the filter to do the isolation, understood. Then where is your connection to your server? Is it from the one router that you also have the printers, Wi-fi etc connected to? I may not exactly be understanding....thx

 

[nuway]

Hi Nuway, Thx. So you are using the filter to do the isolation, understood. Then where is your connection to your server? Is it from the one router that you also have the printers, Wi-fi etc connected to? I may not exactly be understanding....thx

NO, The connection to the Extreme goes to different path: ATT fiber modem > Short Ethernet cable (SOTM with filter) > Sonore OpticalModule with planet techs tx/rx > Short 1m FO cable with no attenuators > Ubiquiti X- SFP router > Sabon Ehthernet cable > stack of two SOTM stwiches (connected thru 0.75m of SOTM ethernet cable with filter) > 4.5 meters of SOTM Ethernet cable > AQVOX SE switch > SOTM Ethernet cable 1m > Melco server/NAS > SOTM 1m ethernet cable > Extreme (connected on the player ethernet connector of the Melco server). Since I have moved my music from the Melco to Extreme. The Melco ethernet player connector offer a nice degree of isolation to the extreme.

 

[Rhapsody]

NO, The connection to the Extreme goes to different path: ATT fiber modem > Short Ethernet cable (SOTM with filter) > Sonore OpticalModule with planet techs tx/rx > Short 1m FO cable with no attenuators > Ubiquiti X- SFP router > Sabon Ehthernet cable > stack of two SOTM stwiches (connected thru 0.75m of SOTM ethernet cable with filter) > 4.5 meters of SOTM Ethernet cable > AQVOX SE switch > SOTM Ethernet cable 1m > Melco server/NAS > SOTM 1m ethernet cable > Extreme (connected on the player ethernet connector of the Melco server). Since I have moved my music from the Melco to Extreme. The Melco ethernet player connector offer a nice degree of isolation to the extreme.

Thx. Awesome. I bet it sounds great. You are "tuned in" and that is where I am attempting to get to as well.

Enjoy and be well.

 

[nuway]

Thx. Awesome. I bet it sounds great. You are "tuned in" and that is where I am attempting to get to as well.

Enjoy and be well.

I am pretty sure that you will be amazed by the new JCAT Gold switch. The addition of FO between your modem and router may benefits both SQ and isolation (per Emile recommendations).
Thank You and be safe

 

[Steve williams]

And the fun part that it is so easy to try, I already have the FO set ups. I definitely will try it, but I in concept I don't like the idea of adding two Media converters with a short run of FO as I now have my modem/routers/JCAT close to the Extreme. But as I have found out, you don't know for sure unless you try it. So I will.

Emile

Remember my KISS technique.."Keep it simple, stupid"

I am certain that of all Extreme owners my network is probably the least complex and according to many here woefully inadequate and prone to problems and I am outclassed as I still have yet to use an LPS (although I am tempted for no other reason except for comparison.

I only use a copper ethernet cable from my satellite to the Extreme and I wouldn't change it for anything. I do know that my network devices used are far fewer than most here so I do have a very simple network. I suggest people consider copper to the Extreme. In my system I wouldn't have it any other way

 

[wil]

NO, The connection to the Extreme goes to different path: ATT fiber modem > Short Ethernet cable (SOTM with filter) > Sonore OpticalModule with planet techs tx/rx > Short 1m FO cable with no attenuators > Ubiquiti X- SFP router > Sabon Ehthernet cable > stack of two SOTM stwiches (connected thru 0.75m of SOTM ethernet cable with filter) > 4.5 meters of SOTM Ethernet cable > AQVOX SE switch > SOTM Ethernet cable 1m > Melco server/NAS > SOTM 1m ethernet cable > Extreme (connected on the player ethernet connector of the Melco server). Since I have moved my music from the Melco to Extreme. The Melco ethernet player connector offer a nice degree of isolation to the extreme.

Holy Cow.... This is a brave new world.

Could you explain the thought behind using the Sonore Optical Module and the Ubiquiti X-sfp router to bridge your fiber optic? Less noise produced than fmc's, I presume? Why not use Sonores at both ends of the FO?
Thanks

 

[Rhapsody]

Holy Cow.... This is a brave new world.

Could you explain the thought behind using the Sonore Optical Module and the Ubiquiti X-sfp router to bridge your fiber optic? Less noise produced than fmc's, I presume? Why not use Sonores at both ends of the FO?
Thanks

Wil, not answering for Nuway, but I think that you will find if you start experimenting with different devices and cables on the network side, they all are going to have a different sonic signature. What works for one person in their system with their sonic preferences vs. your sonic preferences might differ.

Point being there is not a magic correct/best set up. It is good to understand that you can tune your system and upgrade your sonics for a lot less on the network side vs. on the other side of the dac. Because someone has X X X and everyone agrees that X X X is "the best", it may or may not be the best set up for our preferences in your system.

 

[nonesup]

I will contribute my experience of something that happened to me just two days ago. While my server doesn't have dual core with network processes separate from music, I guess at least part of the improvement could happen with Extreme.
My network is quite simple: the optical fiber enters the Router in the kitchen, from this part an Audioquest Cinnamon ethernet cable, which reaches the EtheRegen Switch in the System Rack in my living room.
As I am an absolute believer in the importance of noise reduction, both in the network and in the power, this Router is powered by a Kenneth Lau LPS and connected to the wall socket with a Shunyata Alfa NR cable. However, this socket does not belong to my dedicated power line, but to the general installation of my home, and to make it worse to the same line that my fridge is in. So I had been thinking for a long time about looking for a longer fiber optic cable so that the Router could put it in the living room next to my system and then, the Shunyata cable could be connected to a free socket of my Shunyata Denali. I was assuming that some improvement would occur, although since the Switch was an EtherREGEN I wasn't expecting too much. Well the fiber optic cable arrived two days ago and the result of this change in the quality of the current going to the Router has been something I did not expect to be so important. Naturally, the Switch was already connected to Denali for a long time. I always thought that it was more important to "take care" of the Switch than the Router, today I am not so clear. Perhaps it is equally important.