Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
Well, that's gotta be a first...a top end piece with a stock fuse that can't be impvd upon.
Emile really has thought of everything.
Emile really has thought of everything.
I like this post because it probably represents what many others who do not own an Extreme are thinking. For 24k Euros, people "expect the thing to be perfect out of the box, the best it can be" and yet here are all these posts suggesting the experience with the Extreme can be improved.
First, I think it's important to acknowledge just how much time, effort, and financial resources were expended in the R&D of not just the Extreme but also the upcoming "mini" Extreme and I didn't fully appreciate this until recently when Emile shared with me how many more CPUs he tested just to see if he could match the midrange qualities of the current 10-core Xeon used in the Extreme. Some of these CPUs cost 5K Euros a piece and have incorporated as many as 64-cores. It appears nothing was off limits. If Emile thought it could be better, he tried it no matter how much it cost and found that what is being used in the Extreme is still the best yet from a SQ standpoint but what stood out for me is not that the 10-core Xeon is so good but rather Emile's relentless pursuit of perfection. The parts in the Extreme have been battle tested over and over again and nothing is in it by happenstance. Is the Extreme perfect? From my own DIY perspective, the Extreme is as well thought out, comprehensively tested, and perfectly implemented as a music server can be given the confines of current available technology and because of its expansive chassis design with its ability to handle new motherboards, expansion cards, and power supply modifications, it is also as future-proofed as a music server can be.
Second, just like any other SOTA piece of audio equipment, the Extreme should not be held accountable to environmental variables that our outside of its control such as the quality of power, network infrastructure, and the vibrational influences within the listening room. If you think about it, what other piece of equipment is completely immune to these things? A good example is @PR13's CH Precision C1 DAC. I had the privilege of evaluating this DAC in my home and it is easily one of the best DACs I have heard. At a base price of $32K retail, it would be easy to "expect the thing to be perfect out the box" but the reality is the unit I tried which had the Ethernet input board benefited greatly from vibration control such as the HRS rack that @PR13 owns, an X1 external power supply, T1 clock, good power cords, good interconnects, and yes, a good Ethernet cable and network switch. Why should the Extreme be held to a different standard?
Third, "perfection" in audiophile terms is generally meant to represent an emotional state of mind and one person's idea of perfect will often be different from another's. We all agree to disagree on what the best speakers, amplifier, preamp, DAC, and cabling are and yet, regardless of whether someone prefers speakers vs headphones, tubes vs solid state, or classical vs classic rock, it is impressive to see just how many people from across the globe with such varying tastes have converged to agree on which music server is closest to "perfection." When I first received my Extreme, even though I had heard it before in Emile's listening room, I was overwhelmed with how much better it was than my own best effort. Straight out of the box, it was as perfect as I had ever heard in my listening room but it is also so good that it exposes the weaknesses in your system and has led me to reassess everything in my system. This should not be considered a flaw of the Extreme.
A demo M12 Gold switch has arrived at the HK Telegartner distributor.
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It's being burned-in and I shall go for an audition next week.
Shall I open a new thread on it?
I have had my unit for a few weeks now.
Marcin also included a DC lead to be able to allow me to power it from a 12V rail from my DR SR7:
Emile also sent me my dual SOtM sNH-10G switches back to allow me a much more comprehensive evaluation of various switches. This has been the first time I have heard the SOtM switches with my Extreme:
Emile was kind enough to provide me an OCC copper and hybrid silver/gold DC lead to compare against the OCC silver lead that were in my SOtM switches:
What is interesting is that what applies to my other servers is not guaranteed to apply to the SGM Extreme and so this is why I felt it best to post here rather than elsewhere.
For example, even now, with my servers other than the Extreme, I prefer the SOtM sNH-10G to the etherREGEN by a fairly large margin and dual sNH-10G remains better than just one. With the Extreme, the SOtM switch sound too thin and less natural, even with the copper or silver/gold DC cabling and adding the 2nd sNH-10G fails to rescue it. With the Extreme, I prefer the etherREGEN's greater body and tone.
With my servers other than the Extreme, I prefer the etherREGEN's "B" side. With the Extreme, I prefer "A" side only.
With my servers other than the Extreme, I really don't prefer the etherREGEN at all and it basically goes unused. With the Extreme, functioning largely as an FMC, I love what the etherREGEN adds although admittedly, I have not yet tried Sonore's OM to compare against. I also have not yet tried the new Melco S100 switch but I hope to receive one shortly for comparative evaluation. Powered by a DR rail from my SR7, the etherREGEN (A-side only) is extremely dynamic, has excellent body, and a liquid tone.
With my servers other than the Extreme, I prefer copper direct to server over SFP by a fairly large margin. With the Extreme, I prefer SFP direct to Extreme over copper by a small margin. I find the noise floor to be lower and resolution to be higher with SFP direct to Extreme but the caveat is that the preceding switches, router, and modem sound best with copper. I agree with Emile here, fiber needs to be in the chain somewhere. I also agree with @CKKeung that copper needs to be in the chain somewhere. A mix of both is ideal and the order isn't necessarily as important.
As for the M12 Gold, this is easily the best switch that I have heard thus far, especially when powered by my SR7 but even when powered by the stock SMPS, it still sounds very good and is better than the others. Powered properly, the etherREGEN sounds more dynamic but the M12 Gold adds something that is unique that no other switch has been able to provide in my system. The M12 provides this relaxed, non-fatiguing, "listen all day long" immersive quality that cannot be adequately described in words. Its qualities do not immediately grab your attention but when you remove this switch from the chain, it results in a bigger letdown than removing any of the other switches I have. If your system borders on the analytical or if musicality is the ultimate goal, this is the switch to get.
As for stacking network devices, unfortunately, this makes a difference with the Extreme because each one can add something unique to the balance that one might be after. It goes without saying that a good power supply to any of these devices makes a significant difference. The SB8200 modem ($160) is incredible in terms of the clarity it provides. The impact of this modem is significant and makes a bigger difference than the router in my system. The EdgeRouter X SFP ($100) provides clarity but also a very appealing density to the sound. The performance for the dollar of these 2 items are very high. The etherREGEN with the inexpensive MGB-TLX SFPs provides dynamics and liveliness. The M12 Gold provides beauty and musicality that ties everything together. As for network cabling, they continue to make a very significant difference. It's hard to remove any one of these items from my chain. Yes, addressing the network can be viewed as tuning for taste or "tweaking" but imo, no different than selecting a power cord, USB cable, or footers. As always, YMMV.
This has never been true for any device and only applies if you're a dyed in the wool objectivist. In that case, it should also apply to every device regardless of price. Otherwise, please share your arbitrary price cut off for a product to no longer be able to be enhanced.
@romaz, my findings on m12 gold switch is similar to yours.
I totally agree with you about the “immersive” sound
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...treme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-630671
@romaz is the same type of “immersive” you described with the CS2 footers?
I’m considering getting both, the CS2 footers and the M12 and wondering if there is such a thing as too much “immersion”.
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I am one of the outliers who truly believes that the Extreme is as good as it gets and have forgone any desires to puhtz with all of these things. All you are doing is tuning the system to what sounds best for you and nothing more. I use a good copper ethernet cable from my router to the Extreme along with a good power cord and USB cord along with Center Stage footers. I love what hear and perhaps either I am lucky or stone deaf as what I have now is toe tapping good. Don't ever underestimate the abilities of Emile who IMO is a genius and has for me produced the perfect server
Of course as they say YMMV
There's so much more being left on the table without experimentation. It's understood, the craziness of all this might overwhelm one. Especially if they're not very technically inclined.
At the end of the day, the entire delivery mechanism of a home network to your audio endpoint was never made for audio.
The same way a PC/Laptop has always been able to output to a DAC via USB since the dawn of the USB protocol that allowed audio to be passed along, and yet you still purchased a Taiko Extreme, which is basically a PC without a monitor, but one optimized to the hilt for audio.
Such a device doesn't exist for your network yet.
The reasons being:
1. Your ISP has control over approved modems that are compatible with their service
2. A home network can never be completely dedicated to audio only. Well it can, but that will mean paying two bills and having two separate modems. Unless you don't use the internet for anything other than streaming from Qobuz and Tidal.
3. Variations in distance within the home precludes any manufacturer from producing a one size fits all solution. One device can't do the trick. Unless everyone agrees to have their audio system sit directly in the room where your ISP hits your modem.
4. Since one device can't solve the puzzle, it'll require a collection of disparate units, but this will require the expertise to create at a very high level Linear Power Supplies, Cabling, Optical Isolation, multiple quality interfaces, router knowledge, switch knowledge, vibration control knowledge, etc. This is nigh on impossible. There will always be a weak point in the chain - which leads to the next point
5. Even when this is done, if it's a closed system, customers will still want to be able to try out their own Ethernet cables, Linear Power Supplies, etc. - because this technology is improving year on year- so it may not even be economically viable for a manufacturer to attempt. See the Rednet system as an example. It does a great job for a particular segment of the chain, but it's closed and so rigid, many haven't adopted it.
At the end of the day, the existential reason for the Taiko Extreme is what drives many to improve their network delivery system. It's an equivalent problem. Until one manufacturer can fill the entire void with unquestionable quality, such as the Extreme has done for a server/endpoint, we will remain patching together multiple solutions to that end.
It is understandable that many will choose to not join in this 'silliness'. They can wait and enjoy the fruits of us beta testing folks who will eventually bring to fruition a future turnkey solution for all.
With all due respect, Steve, you are an outlier only with respect to your fear, disdain, or ambivalence of your network environment, which has nothing to do with the Extreme as it applies to any component that is connected to a network. I think most, if not all, Extreme owners believe the Extreme is as good as it gets or at least as good as any of us have ever heard.
I think we all agree on this. Once again, you are not really an outlier when it comes to your joy for your Extreme. It is the most joyful audio component I have purchased in a long time.
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Their immersive qualities are similar. I find the 2 to be very complementary.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Are you trying to convince me or convince yourself. Let’s just agree to disagree. I haven’t heard yours and you haven’t heard my system.
I took Emile’s advice when he said
Good USB cable -check
Good PC - check
Good set of footers- check
Goid copper Ethernet cable check
if I were to do anything I’d check out an LPS and am still considering it but having talked to Emile recently I decided to wait
everytime I read about what everyone is doing is nothing more than tuning the sound. Each time I read a report I am told something is really good but at the expense of something else which is not so good. Then you have to fix what isn’t so good as you descend further down the rabbit hole taking many twists and turns so that eventually you are so far down the hole that you have no recall if ohat you were originally listening to. Don’t get me wrong as I used to be the ultimate tweak. I will say again that IMHO Emile’s Extreme is a stand alone product I took his advice as to what I need and have never been happier. I’ve been there and done what everyone is saying. My reply is glad you’re all having fun. I am as well. I have a friend here with virtually the same set up as me and he too has never been happier. Long and the short is I respect what you’re doing but I also have great respect for Emile’s advice. I took it and am eternally happy. I tuned mine a different way than yours. It has nothing to do with leaving something on the table. I don’t get that what people are not getting is that all of these tweaks are adding a sonic signature to tune their system Not saying they are bad or good. Just a different way of getting there
I took Emile’s advice when he said
Good USB cable -check
Good PC - check
Good set of footers- check
Goid copper Ethernet cable check
if I were to do anything I’d check out an LPS and am still considering it but having talked to Emile recently I decided to wait
everytime I read about what everyone is doing is nothing more than tuning the sound. Each time I read a report I am told something is really good but at the expense of something else which is not so good. Then you have to fix what isn’t so good as you descend further down the rabbit hole taking many twists and turns so that eventually you are so far down the hole that you have no recall if ohat you were originally listening to. Don’t get me wrong as I used to be the ultimate tweak. I will say again that IMHO Emile’s Extreme is a stand alone product I took his advice as to what I need and have never been happier. I’ve been there and done what everyone is saying. My reply is glad you’re all having fun. I am as well. I have a friend here with virtually the same set up as me and he too has never been happier. Long and the short is I respect what you’re doing but I also have great respect for Emile’s advice. I took it and am eternally happy. I tuned mine a different way than yours. It has nothing to do with leaving something on the table. I don’t get that what people are not getting is that all of these tweaks are adding a sonic signature to tune their system Not saying they are bad or good. Just a different way of getting there
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
That’s why I don’t need a switch
pkease don’t patronize me with ”all due respect”. You did it your way. I did it mine.
SB8200 modem > Sablon Ethernet (copper) > EdgeRouter X SFP > Telegartner Ethernet (copper) > M12 Gold > Telegartner Ethernet (copper) > etherREGEN A side with MGB-TLX SFP > fiber > Extreme.
I have tried swapping the etherREGEN's position with the M12 Gold and connecting to the Extreme via copper. Both sound very good but I am slightly preferring fiber direct to the Extreme.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
As for the choice of cabling that you make such a big deal about, I agree. My Masterbuilt Ultra cables are keepers. They’ll be buried with me. I know about all of the choices in USB cable. In my system I’ve made the best choice. I have a full loom of MB Ultra in my system that took me over 3 years to be able to save enough to purchase them along the way. This is how I tuned my system. I’m very happy as to how things turned out.
Sounds like I touched a nerve. No offense intended.
since we don't have a 'get off of my lawn' button to check, i just wanted to tell you that your responses here seem to personify that vibe perfectly.
the nature of computer audio threads in meddling x 1000. it's the price of participation. and it's not going to stop. which is why i take the approach of every 6 months to a year asking is there anything different network-wise i should do now? to Emile. and then stick my head in the sand until that time comes around again.
for some they just love these little (or not so little) steps and messing with it. i leave those urges to tt set-up myself.
btw; as a forum suggestion we could add that button.
It does seem the stream of digital tweaking will be meandering and twisting it's way into the future for some time. This seems to be a particularly turbulent time. I like Mike's 6 month reassessment schedule.
One milestone to know where we are along this digital music journey is: How does digital streaming from Qobuz/Tidal compare to cd transport? And also, how do digital downloads on hard drive compare to cd transport?
I'm curious to hear from Extreme owners (this being the Extreme thread) who also have high quality cd transports.
One milestone to know where we are along this digital music journey is: How does digital streaming from Qobuz/Tidal compare to cd transport? And also, how do digital downloads on hard drive compare to cd transport?
I'm curious to hear from Extreme owners (this being the Extreme thread) who also have high quality cd transports.
