Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Rhapsody]

For many of us, IT is a dark art - something mysterious which we try to avoid - and I can understand how many might swerve away from switches etc. If we however try to visualise the network delivering our music as a compact disc, then things may start to make more sense.

With a basic domestic router / ethernet and all its inherent noise pollution, that CD is scratched and smeared with grease. Let’s call that the base point on a scale of 1 to 10.

What would a '10' be? I guess multiple swiches / lps / fibre etc. That imaginary CD has been cleaned and polished / the edges lathed and covered in green pen / the centre blacked out / Nespa’d etc.

Where were most people on this scale back in the day of playing CDs? Probably 3-5 I guess, with some cleaning and green penning going on but avoiding the OCD rabbit hole of tedious lathing and nespa’ing. The network equivalent of this would be using a decent ethernet cable / installing an LPS on your router / using some form of galvanic isolation.

The network signal is extremely susceptible to high frequency noise which is best exorcised and I think the important thing here is to find a level of noise management which one personally feels comfortable with.

Mark,

My analogy with the network stuff is that you have a Ferrari in the Extreme, BUT you have a road filled with bumps and potholes that the Ferrari is driving on. The Ferrari is still a Ferrari and still performs to an awesome level, but if the road is repaired and smoothed out (the network), then the Ferrari/Extreme becomes unleashed and can perform at a higher level.

I believe that the network, like everything else is system/user dependent. What works for one might make no difference to another. Reason being, ie in my case I had a SERIOUS bottleneck, BUT my system still sounded really good. BUT once the networking bottleneck(s) were removed the Extreme went to another level. BUT that was in my system, which I believe has nothing to do with someone else's system/network.

 

[Rhapsody]

Post your video with and without the switch. Anyone who can’t accept there is a difference then no need to waste time.

Hello Hieukm,

The videos that were on the JCAT forum have been taken down. It was my error for providing the videos where one was used with the cell and the other the Nikon for recording. The results were misleading. All fixed now.

 

[wil]

Actually I heard a not so subtle difference within an hour of installing the switch. The thing is that I believe that might work in my situation might have no effect somewhere else.

I had a serious bottleneck originally feeding my Extreme off of my Verizon Router, which was VERY busy/dirty. Once I removed that bottleneck with the Edge router, it wasn't that it was so much the Edge router. It was just a dedicated router for the Extreme. Adding the switch made about the same SIGNIFICANT differences in my sonics, BUT that has a LOT to do with my set up.

That's why I would want Steve to try it in his set up.

Bob, did you add the Edge router coming after the Version or is it in parallel coming out of your modem? Thanks

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, did you add the Edge router coming after the Version or is it in parallel coming out of your modem? Thanks

Hi Wil,

The Verizon GPON(modem) has one lan output only that connects to the Verizon router via a lan cable. I have to keep that router in the equation because if you take it out, it screws up the tv channel guide.

Then out of one of the lan ports on the Verizon router I have a lan cable connected to the Edge router. So they are in series, not parallel.

As I've said prior I had a hard time with getting the Edge router set up. All I had to do was download new FW and change the IP address in the Edge router. Now that I did it, it seems like it was a simple thing. It was ineptness as I was going through the set up procedures initially that made it difficult.

 

[wil]

Thanks for that explanation. In my neanderthal understanding of networking it would seem that all the noise generating in the Verizon would be passed on to the Edge router? That is, unless you're isolating by running fiber optic out of the Edge?

 

[Rhapsody]

Thanks for that explanation. In my neanderthal understanding of networking is seems that all the noise generating in the Verizon would be passed on to the Edge router? That is, unless you're isolating by running fiber optic out of the Edge?

Well, first of all I have fiber coming into the GPON/modem. I don't believe it's over saturated with noise. What I do think is that the Verion router is BUSY. It also has an AirPort Extreme router connected to it. I have I think 5 HW connections between the Verizon Router/AirPort Extreme. LOT"S of traffic going on there.

When you add the Edge router it isolates the traffic that is being seen on the Verizon router. Then adding the JCAT switch between the Edge router and the Extreme also has a GREAT effect.

Some network guru would probably give a more technical explanation. I can tell you from experience, that when I connected the Edge router, even before adding the JCAT switch, the system exploded with better sonics.

I don't think the positive explosion had anything to do with noise, it was more creating a separate audio/Extreme only network with no traffic other than the streaming signal going to the Extreme.

That's how I see it. Maybe my explanation is all wrong, BUT sticking the Edge router in the system was SO noticeable, I'm still mystified at how it made that much of a difference.

I also do not think it was necessarily the Edge router, although it could be, but I think that if I had inserted any dedicated audio/Extreme only router I would have achieved similar results.

Point being......there is noise and then there is also "traffic". I believe my bottleneck was traffic, not noise.

I also added LPS's to both the Verizon and Edge router. Each time it was very noticeable with the LPS addition. Here I think I did take away noise that was being induced into the circuit via the cheap router supplied ps's.

 

[kswanson27]

Well, first of all I have fiber coming into the GPON/modem. I don't believe it's over saturated with noise. What I do think is that the Verion router is BUSY. It also has an AirPort Extreme router connected to it. I have I think 5 HW connections between the Verizon Router/AirPort Extreme. LOT"S of traffic going on there.

When you add the Edge router it isolates the traffic that is being seen on the Verizon router. Then adding the JCAT switch between the Edge router and the Extreme also has a GREAT effect.

Some network guru would probably give a more technical explanation. I can tell you from experience, that when I connected the Edge router, even before adding the JCAT switch, the system exploded with better sonics.

I don't think the positive explosion had anything to do with noise, it was more creating a separate audio/Extreme only network with no traffic other than the streaming signal going to the Extreme.

That's how I see it. Maybe my explanation is all wrong, BUT sticking the Edge router in the system was SO noticeable, I'm still mystified at how it made that much of a difference.

I also do not think it was necessarily the Edge router, although it could be, but I think that if I had inserted any dedicated audio/Extreme only router I would have achieved similar results.

Point being......there is noise and then there is also "traffic". I believe my bottleneck was traffic, not noise.

I also added LPS's to both the Verizon and Edge router. Each time it was very noticeable with the LPS addition. Here I think I did take away noise that was being induced into the circuit via the cheap router supplied ps's.

Another way to avoid that kind of bottleneck is to get a tri band router and dedicate one band to the music server. I did that and although my network isn't as loaded as Bob's it did make a difference, mainly in dynamics.

 

[Rhapsody]

Another way to avoid that kind of bottleneck is to get a tri band router and dedicate one band to the music server. I did that and although my network isn't as loaded as Bob's it did make a difference, mainly in dynamics.

Hi Ken, I don't think that Verizon offers a tri-band router that is why I did not pursue that route. I cannot go away from the V supplied router because of TV AND more importantly Verizon service if I ever need it. I basically run my business off of the Verizon router.

For non-Verizon applications the trip-band router would be ideal.

 

[matthias]

Another way to avoid that kind of bottleneck is to get a tri band router and dedicate one band to the music server. I did that and although my network isn't as loaded as Bob's it did make a difference, mainly in dynamics.

Very interesting.
If I understand correctly you are talking about Tri-Band-WiFi. Can you please elaborate further which devices you use?
Thanks

Matt

 

[matthias]

Well, first of all I have fiber coming into the GPON/modem. I don't believe it's over saturated with noise. What I do think is that the Verion router is BUSY. It also has an AirPort Extreme router connected to it. I have I think 5 HW connections between the Verizon Router/AirPort Extreme. LOT"S of traffic going on there.

When you add the Edge router it isolates the traffic that is being seen on the Verizon router. Then adding the JCAT switch between the Edge router and the Extreme also has a GREAT effect.

Some network guru would probably give a more technical explanation. I can tell you from experience, that when I connected the Edge router, even before adding the JCAT switch, the system exploded with better sonics.

I don't think the positive explosion had anything to do with noise, it was more creating a separate audio/Extreme only network with no traffic other than the streaming signal going to the Extreme.

That's how I see it. Maybe my explanation is all wrong, BUT sticking the Edge router in the system was SO noticeable, I'm still mystified at how it made that much of a difference.

I also do not think it was necessarily the Edge router, although it could be, but I think that if I had inserted any dedicated audio/Extreme only router I would have achieved similar results.

Point being......there is noise and then there is also "traffic". I believe my bottleneck was traffic, not noise.

I also added LPS's to both the Verizon and Edge router. Each time it was very noticeable with the LPS addition. Here I think I did take away noise that was being induced into the circuit via the cheap router supplied ps's.

Hi Bob,

you have a similar network set-up like @romaz .
Do you consider to add the ER as a last step before the Extreme as described in post #3395?
Thanks

Matt

 

[kswanson27]

Very interesting.
If I understand correctly you are talking about Tri-Band-WiFi. Can you please elaborate further which devices you use?
Thanks

Matt

The router is a Netgear Nighthawk tri band. It allows you to dedicate a wireless or cable band or both. In my case we dedicated both to my music server which is a hard wired Sonic transporter i5 (at least until i order an extreme).
Bob, does Verizon not allow you to use routers other than Verizon?

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Bob,

you have a similar network set-up like @romaz .
Do you consider to add the ER as a last step before the Extreme as described in post #3395?
Thanks

Matt

Hi Matt,

Well it's not by coincidence that I have a similar chain as Romaz. I've followed his journey carefully. Roy has also been kind enough to assist me in my journey when I have asked him questions.

For the moment I am afraid to even touch my network as the system sounds SO GOOD to me, I don't want to touch it.

Next step for me is adding the Optimo 3 Duo power supply. I am going to use it for both the M12 Switch and the Edge router since it has two outputs.

Once I land at that point, then I might try the ER and add some fiber to the chain. I know both Romaz and Emile like the idea of some fiber in the chain. For such a minimal investment it's like "why not" try it?

 

[Rhapsody]

The router is a Netgear Nighthawk tri band. It allows you to dedicate a wireless or cable band or both. In my case we dedicated both to my music server which is a hard wired Sonic transporter i5 (at least until i order an extreme).
Bob, does Verizon not allow you to use routers other than Verizon?

Verizon DOES allow the use of other routers. I looked once and they have a list of approved non-supplied routers on their site. They also tell you that you need to call them to release the DHCP lease. Then there is an adapter that you have to buy that allows the channel guide, Demand and DVR to work properly. I've also read some folks had issues with that adapter AND Verizon will not assist with third party devices if they send out a technician for any service that might be required.

With saying that Dminches has just pulled out his Verizon router and inserted I believe the Edge router in it's place and did not do call Verizon to release the DHCP lease and it worked fine. But I don't think Dave uses the Verizon on this network for TV.

I would have explored replacing the Verizon router and really wanted to, but where I am in NYC, IF you need a Verizon tech service call and they walk in and see the non-Verizon router, they pretty much say we can't help you.

I know several people that replaced their Verizon routers for normal non-audio type service and then they had support issues with Verizon. I cannot afford to have any service issues if something goes haywire with my phone tv, or ethernet.

 

[sbo6]

I am one of the outliers who truly believes that the Extreme is as good as it gets and have forgone any desires to puhtz with all of these things. All you are doing is tuning the system to what sounds best for you and nothing more. I use a good copper ethernet cable from my router to the Extreme along with a good power cord and USB cord along with Center Stage footers. I love what hear and perhaps either I am lucky or stone deaf as what I have now is toe tapping good. Don't ever underestimate the abilities of Emile who IMO is a genius and has for me produced the perfect server

Of course as they say YMMV

So when (not if) Emile comes out with the next version of the Extreme will you go on record as stating it can't be better than what you have now?

Also, if you think that the results from all this puhtzing yields in a reshuffling of compromises you are proving your own ignorance as you obviously have not putzed around enough and / or effectively. Many of the changes / tweaks / upgrades /mods to renderers, computer servers, streamers, network gear and cables yield sonic improvements with no negatives. You might also be more apt to putz around if you had a Engineering / IT background, but even there many folks who don't are willing to learn to get the most improvement for their hard earned $; don't belittle their courage, interest and tenacity. Walk a mile as they say.

 

[Steve Williams]

So when (not if) Emile comes out with the next version of the Extreme will you go on record as stating it can't be better than what you have now?

Also, if you think that the results from all this puhtzing yields in a reshuffling of compromises you are proving your own ignorance as you obviously have not putzed around enough and / or effectively. Many of the changes / tweaks / upgrades /mods to renderers, computer servers, streamers, network gear and cables yield sonic improvements with no negatives. You might also be more apt to putz around if you had a Engineering / IT background, but even there many folks who don't are willing to learn to get the most improvement for their hard earned $; don't belittle their courage, interest and tenacity. Walk a mile as they say.

I would be the first in line to buy the new Extreme because as I’ve stated for me I’ve bought into the Extreme as a stand-alone unit and yes it would be better. I truly am not interested in these tweaks. I respect you guys with engineering background who understand these things as I am only a mere MD OBGYN

Is someone going to answer my question to put in perspective what “I have left on the table“ by not being as smart as you guys.

if my extreme and network is worth a dollar, what is your extreme and network worth

and final question are you hearing something better or something different and If something better how much better ( first question)
bottom line is I have a lot of respect for you guys but as I’ve said “I’ve been there and done that” so let’s just drop it and move on as it isn’t remotely an itch I’m willing to scratch.

perhaps the next Extreme will have all of these included so you’ll be happy too



.

 

[sbo6]

I would be the first in line to buy the new Extreme because as I’ve stated for me I’ve bought into the Extreme as a stand-alone unit and yes it would be better. I truly am not interested in these tweaks. I respect you guys with engineering background who understand these things as I am only a mere MD OBGYN

Is someone going to answer my question to put in perspective what “I have left on the table“ by not being as smart as you guys.

if my extreme and network is worth a dollar, what is your extreme and network worth

and final question are you hearing something better or something different and If something better how much better ( first question)
bottom line is I have a lot of respect for you guys but as I’ve said “I’ve been there and done that” so let’s just drop it and move on as it isn’t remotely an itch I’m willing to scratch.

perhaps the next Extreme will have all of these included so you’ll be happy too



.

Steve, I think what's at issue IMO is that you assume that the efforts to create the Extreme are somehow above and beyond all others' attempts including tweaks when in reality much of the these companies' R&D falls into the same camp as what you call, "Putzing around." Much of what Emile, the designers at Aqua, Auralic, Innous, Pink Faun etc. do to select components is via characterization - trial and error with different SW and / or HW components with extensive listening. While I would agree that Emile's efforts are more extreme (pun intended) than some others which seem to have paid off much is exactly what many of us do and we report results so we all win. So as much as you say you've "been down that road" you don't / can't seem to understand they are in many ways one in the same. And for someone who recently bought a tube - based DAC I'd say you're more in tweakland than you might admit.

Also, WRT "what's left on the table" Engineer or not, only time will tell because the reality is - there is no best, only gradations of better.

 

[Steve Williams]

You really like to dodge the question and deflect to make this an argument I have no desire in which to participate

i Have no doubt you’re hearing something different/better and I want to know how much better that is. Instead you once again deflect. I maintain there are different ways to tune your Extreme. We’ve both gone in different directions. I love where my head is at now with my system because yes I’ve been there and done that. I understand. So let’s move on Enough said

 

[sbo6]

I've not deflected and am not looking for an argument. We're clearly on different planes; it is what it is. Moving on...

 

[Rhapsody]

You really like to dodge the question and deflect to make this an argument I have no desire in which to participate

i Have no doubt you’re hearing something different/better and I want to know how much better that is. Instead you once again deflect. I maintain there are different ways to tune your Extreme. We’ve both gone in different directions. I love where my head is at now with my system because yes I’ve been there and done that. I understand. So let’s move on Enough said

Hi Steve,

I thought by offering you a chance to hear the difference for yourself in your own system with zero obligation would be the best way for your question to be answered.

Understood if you don't want to try it for your self, so instead of that approach I will answer your question. This only pertains to my set ups as I believe that all networks, systems, rooms and ears are all different.

Using the Extreme, If you have a perfect network with no bottlenecks and ISP supplied modems/routers and you feed directly into the Extreme with copper or fiber you will probably get GREAT SOUND. No doubt about it.

Working on the network by trying both fiber and copper (they sound different, not better or worse, but different), getting a better sounding router than the ISP supplied router, or adding an additional router in conjunctions with the ISP router, as I did in my case, and then adding a switch into the equation, along with good lan cables can and have provided these types of results for me.

ISP modem/Router>>>>Extreme = $1

Enhanced network at a total cost for me about $6K = NOT a % or $1.25 or $1.50, BUT a TOTALLY different listening experience. Much more than % differences in sonics for me.

On the flip side Emile says that in his systems the differences are not that major. I believe it's a case-by-case basis.

My systems are now MUCH more relaxed sounding. MUCH more holographic. Tube like dimensionality/3D presentation, with great layering on the soundstage but with all SS. Big time micro and macro dynamic enhancement.

Steve, that is what happened to me, BUT I had a ISP router bottleneck. By "putzing around" with the modems/routers/switches I discovered that. My systems which sounded VERY GOOD prior now in comparison were like a garden hose to now with the enhanced network a FIRE HOSE.

This is not a matter of just changing the sound, yes certain devices will change the sound and you can tune to your liking. BUT finding better routers, switches and cables were in my case MORE telling than changing DAC's, preamps/amps and IC's/sp. cables which all cost a fortune in comparison.

You will never know unless you try it for yourself in your system. If you don't want to do that, it's totally fine, but don't think that optimizing the network for audio MIGHT not make a tremendous amount of sonic difference. The only way to know how optimizing your network will work for you is to experiment with it.

 

[Steve Williams]

I can’t disagree with anything you say. I even liked your post. I’ve even said that if I messed with anything it would be an LPS. Short of that I am simply not interested

Here for me is the crux of your post IMO

On the flip side Emile says that in his systems the differences are not that major. I believe it's a case-by-case basis.

i totally agree with Emile

which once again takes me to where I stated my position before. Simply put I have zero desire to go down the rabbit hole when I am totally content with the sound of my system. You are toning your system one way and I have toned my system another way. We are both happy. Not once have I ever said my way is better and perhaps it is you who is leaving a lot in the table. Everyone has told me I’m wrong.

it was interesting for me to note that someone found that the super dooper fuses were no better than the fuse Emile chose. These are the reasons for me that I maintain the Extreme is a stand alone unit.

My questions yesterday go unanswered. So let me try to answer them. My bet is that if my Extreme and network is worth a dollar yours might be worth $1.05 It just doesn’t compute for me as anything I feel the need to explore I have reached end game and truly love where I am. The Extreme for my ears set up in the manner I did keeps me in that chair for hours at a time. Finally i Still get the impression that after all of these things have been added to your network is producing a different sound rather than a better sound as it is the tonality you are changing.

so once again can we please drop this and move on. I love my Extreme. You love yours. It’s all good.