Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[wil]

-I can sway my preference for say an Uptone ether regen with planet SFP's and the Telegartner M12 Gold by switching the interconnect between DAC and preamplifier, I prefer silver wire with the M12, copper wire with the Uptone/fiber.
-If I purchase an album on Qobuz, download and store it on the Extreme's internal storage, it is actually not much better then the same files streamed directly from Qobuz. I would be interested if others can replicate this phenomenon.

Emile, to clarify, are you saying you prefer the Uptone to the Telgartner if using copper ic's?

And your finding of little difference between a Qobuz download and streamed is particularly interesting. I've only downloaded one file so far from Qobuz, and I actually found I preferred the streamed version! But I'm going to try more.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, to clarify, are you saying you prefer the Uptone to the Telgartner if using copper ic's?

And your finding of little difference between a Qobuz download and streamed is particularly interesting. I've only downloaded one file so far from Qobuz, and I actually found I preferred the streamed version! But I'm going to try more.

Hi Wil,

It makes it a very tough call! I do still get a bit more bass weight with the Telegartner, even with that silver interconnect, the Uptone being ever so slightly more "airy", with the copper interconnect! On orchestral the Telegartner, on jazz the Uptone...

That is interesting, I can't say it's worse here, but we have always had fairly decent online streaming quality here in The Netherlands, even with our previous generation of servers. Which makes you wonder if there are regional differences. This again makes it interesting if others could report on their perceived difference of network tweak influence versus swapping powercords / usb cables etc.

 

[Kris]

Emile
Did you try to use both Uptone ER and Telegartner M 12 Gold chained ?
I think someone here already chained them both with M12 being first and ER last before Extreme with great result.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile
Did you try to use both Uptone ER and Telegartner M 12 Gold chained ?
I think someone here already chained them both with M12 being first and ER last before Extreme with great result.

@romaz did that, I have not tried yet.

 

[heebrog]

The conclusion of the data we have collected so far

Now let me add some intriguing observations made over time:

-If I purchase an album on Qobuz, download and store it on the Extreme's internal storage, it is actually not much better then the same files streamed directly from Qobuz. I would be interested if others can replicate this phenomenon.

Hi Emile,

Regarding the above observation.

Do you think it's isolated to Qobuz or would it apply to other streaming services as well like Tidal?
Is it a mastering issue or network problem; like the noise somehow gets embedded in the file.
I wonder if that is the case if the same files were purchased from elsewhere like NativeDSD or other vendors.
I always thought internal storage playback on Extreme was supposed to be superior to streaming.
I don't have Qobuz streaming where I am so cannot test this.

G

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Wil,

It makes it a very tough call! I do still get a bit more bass weight with the Telegartner, even with that silver interconnect, the Uptone being ever so slightly more "airy", with the copper interconnect! On orchestral the Telegartner, on jazz the Uptone...

That is interesting, I can't say it's worse here, but we have always had fairly decent online streaming quality here in The Netherlands, even with our previous generation of servers. Which makes you wonder if there are regional differences. This again makes it interesting if others could report on their perceived difference of network tweak influence versus swapping powercords / usb cables etc.

My experience ONLY applies to my system YMMV.

In my set ups adding the Edge router, off-loading my Verizon Router and then the M12 Switch were both similar in upticks in performance. I would rate as-

-Changing to a much enhanced power cord that makes a big difference 4 out of 10

-Changing to preferable IC's 2 out of 10

-Changing to preferable sp. cables 4 out of 10

-Adding the Edge router 8 out of 10 (this was because I had a traffic bottleneck with my ISP router presumably)

-Adding the M12 10 out of 10 (it took 4 days to break in)

-Adding LPS to the Verizon Router and Edge router 5 out of 10

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Emile,

Regarding the above observation.

Do you think it's isolated to Qobuz or would it apply to other streaming services as well like Tidal?
Is it a mastering issue or network problem; like the noise somehow gets embedded in the file.
I wonder if that is the case if the same files were purchased from elsewhere like NativeDSD or other vendors.
I always thought internal storage playback on Extreme was supposed to be superior to streaming.
I don't have Qobuz streaming where I am so cannot test this.

G

Given that some albums can sound better sourced from Tidal, and others better from Qobuz, it would make sense to conclude it's a source file "issue".

However, I did ran across a study a long time ago which showed noise patterns can be stored along with files, unfortunately I cannot find it anymore with a quick search, will try to dig it up later.

As files sourced from streaming services are cached on your OS drive before playback, which is an Optane PCIe drive in the Extreme, we were forced to move towards PCIe storage for locally music files, as streaming was outperforming local music files stored on SATA SSD drives.

The logical conclusion would be there are multiple modes of action in play. On one side we have the source file quality, on the other side what happens to it in "transit".

Going on the wildly varying results with switches etc, there may be merit in recreating files, or rather bit blocks, and possibly even recreating them multiple times. However it would have to net out positive, storing the newly created bits in a lower noise environment then the one preceding it.

 

[Taiko Audio]

My experience ONLY applies to my system YMMV.

In my set ups adding the Edge router, off-loading my Verizon Router and then the M12 Switch were both similar in upticks in performance. I would rate as-

-Changing to a much enhanced power cord that makes a big difference 4 out of 10

-Changing to preferable IC's 2 out of 10

-Changing to preferable sp. cables 4 out of 10

-Adding the Edge router 8 out of 10 (this was because I had a traffic bottleneck with my ISP router presumably)

-Adding the M12 10 out of 10 (it took 4 days to break in)

-Adding LPS to the Verizon Router and Edge router 5 out of 10

Your results do appear to be quite "Extreme". It would be very interested in hearing from others as well.

 

[sbo6]

Given that some albums can sound better sourced from Tidal, and others better from Qobuz, it would make sense to conclude it's a source file "issue".

However, I did ran across a study a long time ago which showed noise patterns can be stored along with files, unfortunately I cannot find it anymore with a quick search, will try to dig it up later.

As files sourced from streaming services are cached on your OS drive before playback, which is an Optane PCIe drive in the Extreme, we were forced to move towards PCIe storage for locally music files, as streaming was outperforming local music files stored on SATA SSD drives.

The logical conclusion would be there are multiple modes of action in play. On one side we have the source file quality, on the other side what happens to it in "transit".

Going on the wildly varying results with switches etc, there may be merit in recreating files, or rather bit blocks, and possibly even recreating them multiple times. However it would have to net out positive, storing the newly created bits in a lower noise environment then the one preceding it.

That's new information for me, that files stored can include noise, a determining factor in quality. Would that not be file corruption? How would this noise manifest itself in magnetic storage or memory storage?

 

[matthias]

-Adding the Edge router 8 out of 10 (this was because I had a traffic bottleneck with my ISP router presumably)
-Adding the M12 10 out of 10 (it took 4 days to break in)

Bob,

just for clarification:

The SQ delta of adding the Edgerouter to the Verizon was lower than that of adding the M12 to the Edgerouter?

Can you please elaborate about the SQ changes with the M12?

Thanks

Matt

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob,

just for clarification:

The SQ delta of adding the Edgerouter to the Verizon was lower than that of adding the M12 to the Edgerouter?

Can you please elaborate about the SQ changes with the M12?

Thanks

Matt

Hi Matt, Again this is what happened in my system, no idea what the effect would be in other systems. As I said I got a BIG boost by adding the Edge router, but the boost was more clarity, stronger and clearer bass, more of a 3D presentation although I already had a good 3D presentation, it got better. BUT that had to do with me off-loading the traffic on my Verizon router.

Next step was inserting the M12Gold Switch, with its two supplied M12/J45 connector lan cables. One cable to the Extreme, one cable to a lan port on the Edge router. M12 connectors to the M12, RJ45 to the Extreme and Edge.

The sound with the M12 Gold actually increased everything the Edge router did EXCEPT there was a very noticeable difference which kept getting better over the first 100 hours. The system got VERY RELAXED sounding. Nothing else I did had this effect.

I was playing at 20 or 21 on my volume control, now I am playing at 25 or 26 on the volume control. It does not seem like you could turn it up too loud. Everything stays relaxed, solid and grounded.

Within the much more relaxed soundstage everything expands. Soundstage gets much more 3D with instruments and voices having their own mirco harmonics ringing out clearly and with air and space around each instrument.

The sound permeates throughout the room vs. between the speakers and the back wall.

With the more relaxed presentation it allows micro dynamics to become much more present and clear. Notes that sounded like "notes" now turn into more of the presences of the instrument that is playing those notes.

It's really hard to explain. If I had to dumb it down I would call it -Relaxed, Electric and natural at the same time.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bob, is it at all an issue you have to stick w the cables included w the M12? It's the only switch on the mkt that is a fixed package, no cbls swapping allowed.

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, is it at all an issue you have to stick w the cables included w the M12? It's the only switch on the mkt that is a fixed package, no cbls swapping allowed.

Hey Marc,

Honestly I have not experimented with other switches. The "others" will know much better. With the JCAT Gold switch I think ( I don't know) the M12 connectors that plug into the switch and the quality of the lan cables add to the overall sound

Now that someone "stuck it in my head" and Romaz is using it once I get the Optimo 3 Duo PS for the Gold Switch and see what it does with the switch and the Edge router (it has two outputs), I might explore the Etherregen as well.

I could DEFINITELY stop right now and never think about the network anymore and feel totally content. BUT unfortunately it's not in my DNA, ESPECIALLY being quarantined

 

[Marcin_gps]

Bob, is it at all an issue you have to stick w the cables included w the M12? It's the only switch on the mkt that is a fixed package, no cbls swapping allowed.

There will be an option to swap to my Signature LAN. I'm working on it.

 

[Marcin_gps]

Regarding the magnitude of improvement coming from the M12 switch I guess it's system dependent. E.g. in my system with Kawero Chiara speakers once the m12 switched was removed, I was devastated, couldn't stand the sound of the system anymore. With YG the improvement is still there without a doubt but the difference is not that overwhelming. By overwhelming I mean that the m12 switch brought to my system more than upgrading DAC from APL mid-level DSD-S to top of the line DSD-MR. One really has to hear what it does.

 

[Steve Williams]

Regarding the magnitude of improvement coming from the M12 switch I guess it's system dependent. E.g. in my system with Kawero Chiara speakers once the m12 switched was removed, I was devastated, couldn't stand the sound of the system anymore. With YG the improvement is still there without a doubt but the difference is not that overwhelming. By overwhelming I mean that the m12 switch brought to my system more than upgrading DAC from APL mid-level DSD-S to top of the line DSD-MR. One really has to hear what it does.

I’m confused. Are you saying the switch made a bigger difference than your new DAC

 

[Blackmorec]

Hi Matt, Again this is what happened in my system, no idea what the effect would be in other systems. As I said I got a BIG boost by adding the Edge router, but the boost was more clarity, stronger and clearer bass, more of a 3D presentation although I already had a good 3D presentation, it got better. BUT that had to do with me off-loading the traffic on my Verizon router.

Next step was inserting the M12Gold Switch, with its two supplied M12/J45 connector lan cables. One cable to the Extreme, one cable to a lan port on the Edge router. M12 connectors to the M12, RJ45 to the Extreme and Edge.

The sound with the M12 Gold actually increased everything the Edge router did EXCEPT there was a very noticeable difference which kept getting better over the first 100 hours. The system got VERY RELAXED sounding. Nothing else I did had this effect.

I was playing at 20 or 21 on my volume control, now I am playing at 25 or 26 on the volume control. It does not seem like you could turn it up too loud. Everything stays relaxed, solid and grounded.

Within the much more relaxed soundstage everything expands. Soundstage gets much more 3D with instruments and voices having their own mirco harmonics ringing out clearly and with air and space around each instrument.

The sound permeates throughout the room vs. between the speakers and the back wall.

With the more relaxed presentation it allows micro dynamics to become much more present and clear. Notes that sounded like "notes" now turn into more of the presences of the instrument that is playing those notes.

It's really hard to explain. If I had to dumb it down I would call it -Relaxed, Electric and natural at the same time.

If you look at a selection of my most recent posts you’ll find i report almost identical effects, noting that the usual hi-fi terms no longer apply and everything is now going in the direction of more lifelike and real sounding......instruments have their own acoustic space and identity and notes sound like they are ‘made by the instrument’ rather than ‘coming from an instrument’ . It means there’s simply more information regarding the timbre and texture of the music, the micro dynamics, development of the notes and the way the soundwaves develop and travel. Often instrument have a ‘direction of decay’ which imbues the sound with tremendous ‘recording venue reality’. I also find that with better power supplies, the timing and rhythmic drive increases, giving the interplay between musicians greater excitement and meaning. I also find that the room becomes highly energised and sparkles or reverberates. If you’ve ever listened to a Bosendorfer or Steinway concert grand in ball-room or smaller sized venues you’ll know what i mean....the air feels totally energised and alive. I often find the best way to describe improvement is by relating them to the listener‘s response rather than using typical hi-fi presentation terminology. These changes seem to be really fundamental to the spirit and soul of the music and intention of the musicians. They bring out greater beauty and therefore more intense enjoyment.

 

[Marcin_gps]

I’m confused. Are you saying the switch made a bigger difference than your new DAC

Correct. But like I said, it was when I was using Kawero Chiara speakers. With YG the difference is not that huge

 

[Taiko Audio]

That's new information for me, that files stored can include noise, a determining factor in quality. Would that not be file corruption? How would this noise manifest itself in magnetic storage or memory storage?

No its not corruption. Bits are also not just ones and zeros but analogue waveforms which are just counted as ones and zeros depending on their state, high or low. But still then, it's refreshed and moved all the time, so it was a surprising read! I will try to dig up the paper.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Correct. But like I said, it was when I was using Kawero Chiara speakers. With YG the difference is not that huge

That is intriguing.