Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[the sound of Tao]

wil, the JMF 3.7 universal disc transport looks a total beast.
And at €50k, 2x price of the Extreme.
Would make a fascinating comparison.

Marc 6 months into lockdown it’s possible to think we could be talking $$$ a half of that . Who is going to be making big investments in gear while the future is so unknown???

 

[spiritofmusic]

Graham, this is THE transport to compare. The price tag is just the icing on the cake.
What dac you'd use with an Extreme and a JMF is also a good Q.

 

[Steve Williams]

since we don't have a 'get off of my lawn' button to check, i just wanted to tell you that your responses here seem to personify that vibe perfectly.

the nature of computer audio threads in meddling x 1000. it's the price of participation. and it's not going to stop. which is why i take the approach of every 6 months to a year asking is there anything different network-wise i should do now? to Emile. and then stick my head in the sand until that time comes around again.

for some they just love these little (or not so little) steps and messing with it. i leave those urges to tt set-up myself.

btw; as a forum suggestion we could add that button.

Problem is Mike you don't like differing opinion. I get it.

These are discussions and I am here to say that opinions differ. Get over it

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham, this is THE transport to compare. The price tag is just the icing on the cake.
What dac you'd use with an Extreme and a JMF is also a good Q.

Because we’ll be possibly be able to afford them in the post Covid sales Even beyond natural attrition (given our average age as a group) we might be a spiralling less-numerous demographic going forwards.

 

[nuway]

Marc 6 months into lockdown it’s possible to think we could be talking $$$ a half of that . Who is going to be making big investments in gear while the future is so unknown???

Totally agreed. and I believe that the quality of post purchase support is so important if we finally decide to spent big $$$!!! Emile is an example of such excellent world class support!

 

[CKKeung]

I have had my unit for a few weeks now.

View attachment 63847
View attachment 63848

Marcin also included a DC lead to be able to allow me to power it from a 12V rail from my DR SR7:

View attachment 63849

Emile also sent me my dual SOtM sNH-10G switches back to allow me a much more comprehensive evaluation of various switches. This has been the first time I have heard the SOtM switches with my Extreme:

View attachment 63850

Emile was kind enough to provide me an OCC copper and hybrid silver/gold DC lead to compare against the OCC silver lead that were in my SOtM switches:

View attachment 63851

What is interesting is that what applies to my other servers is not guaranteed to apply to the SGM Extreme and so this is why I felt it best to post here rather than elsewhere.

For example, even now, with my servers other than the Extreme, I prefer the SOtM sNH-10G to the etherREGEN by a fairly large margin and dual sNH-10G remains better than just one. With the Extreme, the SOtM switch sound too thin and less natural, even with the copper or silver/gold DC cabling and adding the 2nd sNH-10G fails to rescue it. With the Extreme, I prefer the etherREGEN's greater body and tone.

With my servers other than the Extreme, I prefer the etherREGEN's "B" side. With the Extreme, I prefer "A" side only.

With my servers other than the Extreme, I really don't prefer the etherREGEN at all and it basically goes unused. With the Extreme, functioning largely as an FMC, I love what the etherREGEN adds although admittedly, I have not yet tried Sonore's OM to compare against. I also have not yet tried the new Melco S100 switch but I hope to receive one shortly for comparative evaluation. Powered by a DR rail from my SR7, the etherREGEN (A-side only) is extremely dynamic, has excellent body, and a liquid tone.

With my servers other than the Extreme, I prefer copper direct to server over SFP by a fairly large margin. With the Extreme, I prefer SFP direct to Extreme over copper by a small margin. I find the noise floor to be lower and resolution to be higher with SFP direct to Extreme but the caveat is that the preceding switches, router, and modem sound best with copper. I agree with Emile here, fiber needs to be in the chain somewhere. I also agree with @CKKeung that copper needs to be in the chain somewhere. A mix of both is ideal and the order isn't necessarily as important.

As for the M12 Gold, this is easily the best switch that I have heard thus far, especially when powered by my SR7 but even when powered by the stock SMPS, it still sounds very good and is better than the others. Powered properly, the etherREGEN sounds more dynamic but the M12 Gold adds something that is unique that no other switch has been able to provide in my system. The M12 provides this relaxed, non-fatiguing, "listen all day long" immersive quality that cannot be adequately described in words. Its qualities do not immediately grab your attention but when you remove this switch from the chain, it results in a bigger letdown than removing any of the other switches I have. If your system borders on the analytical or if musicality is the ultimate goal, this is the switch to get.

As for stacking network devices, unfortunately, this makes a difference with the Extreme because each one can add something unique to the balance that one might be after. It goes without saying that a good power supply to any of these devices makes a significant difference. The SB8200 modem ($160) is incredible in terms of the clarity it provides. The impact of this modem is significant and makes a bigger difference than the router in my system. The EdgeRouter X SFP ($100) provides clarity but also a very appealing density to the sound. The performance for the dollar of these 2 items are very high. The etherREGEN with the inexpensive MGB-TLX SFPs provides dynamics and liveliness. The M12 Gold provides beauty and musicality that ties everything together. As for network cabling, they continue to make a very significant difference. It's hard to remove any one of these items from my chain. Yes, addressing the network can be viewed as tuning for taste or "tweaking" but imo, no different than selecting a power cord, USB cable, or footers. As always, YMMV.

Thanks Romaz for your comprehensive review!

I actually visited the Telegartner dealer for another matter last week and had a brief listen of the Gold M12 switch.
I found its performance NOT up to the standard of the Extreme, or other top server/streamers'.

Two possibilities.
Firstly it might need more burn-in.
Secondly I really don't like its included smps.



Therefore I asked Ben to run it continuously for a week and find a better LPS for it.
After the current Easter long weekend, I guess it should be ready for my second visit.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Problem is Mike you don't like differing opinion. I get it.

These are discussions and I am here to say that opinions differ. Get over it

first of all i'm teasing you.......just having a bit of fun. and i meant nothing personal.

it just seems fruitless/pointless to jump into computer techie detail/acronym banter (that mostly neither of us understand and have little interest in understanding), and then say "i'm not open to change"......"i'm happy as i am"......"leave me alone" (get off my grass). then.......do it again.

why even get into it? seems silly.

i'll not bother you again about it.

 

[rgmd11]

Are you trying to convince me or convince yourself. Let’s just agree to disagree. I haven’t heard yours and you haven’t heard my system.
I took Emile’s advice when he said
Good USB cable -check
Good PC - check
Good set of footers- check
Goid copper Ethernet cable check

if I were to do anything I’d check out an LPS and am still considering it but having talked to Emile recently I decided to wait

everytime I read about what everyone is doing is nothing more than tuning the sound. Each time I read a report I am told something is really good but at the expense of something else which is not so good. Then you have to fix what isn’t so good as you descend further down the rabbit hole taking many twists and turns so that eventually you are so far down the hole that you have no recall if ohat you were originally listening to. Don’t get me wrong as I used to be the ultimate tweak. I will say again that IMHO Emile’s Extreme is a stand alone product I took his advice as to what I need and have never been happier. I’ve been there and done what everyone is saying. My reply is glad you’re all having fun. I am as well. I have a friend here with virtually the same set up as me and he too has never been happier. Long and the short is I respect what you’re doing but I also have great respect for Emile’s advice. I took it and am eternally happy. I tuned mine a different way than yours. It has nothing to do with leaving something on the table. I don’t get that what people are not getting is that all of these tweaks are adding a sonic signature to tune their system Not saying they are bad or good. Just a different way of getting there

Totally agree, having bought and sold along with losing a small fortune over the last 3 or 4 years (indeed a total rabbit hole into a large warren) various amps, speakers, streamers, DAC's, cables, conditioners etc trying to find the audio holy grail (well my interpretation anyway), I now finally feel I am getting somewhere and very close with my present setup.

Now only looking to change to a Torus transformer and will then either buy a Extreme mini when it becomes available or wait a little until a used Extreme comes on the market and snap it up quickly, and also get a couple of dedicated power lines installed.

As mentioned I have made some bad and expensive mistakes and also not withstanding the fact that my room is not treated in any shape or form which I also hope to rectify soon.

The short and curly's is that imho you are correct, just keep it simple and with the right gear and synergy you can finally then just sit back and chill and have hours of enjoyment without worrying about the latest this or that.

Keep safe everyone.....

 

[Steve Williams]

Totally agree, having bought and sold along with losing a small fortune over the last 3 or 4 years (indeed a total rabbit hole into a large warren) various amps, speakers, streamers, DAC's, cables, conditioners etc trying to find the audio holy grail (well my interpretation anyway), I now finally feel I am getting somewhere and very close with my present setup.

Now only looking to change to a Torus transformer and will then either buy a Extreme mini when it becomes available or wait a little until a used Extreme comes on the market and snap it up quickly, and also get a couple of dedicated power lines installed.

As mentioned I have made some bad and expensive mistakes and also not withstanding the fact that my room is not treated in any shape or form which I also hope to rectify soon.

The short and curly's is that imho you are correct, just keep it simple and with the right gear and synergy you can finally then just sit back and chill and have hours of enjoyment without worrying about the latest this or that.

Keep safe everyone.....

I wasn't going to comment in the thread because my point is indeed getting old. For me this is the best thread on the forum and I didn't realize that differing opinions aren't welcome. I do value and truly love reading all of these reviews . This thread is my favorite

Putting that aside for one moment I replied as I did in response to a comment made by a member that if one is having to spend a large sum of money on the Extreme why does he have to spend more monies doing all of these mods when the Extreme should do it all. I totally agree because for me I love the Extreme in my system. To me it is a standalone piece of equipment.

I did take Emile's advice and I'm done save for possibility of auditioning an LPS.

I also get it and agree that change in routers etc etc might make a digfference but what created my knee jerk reaction was once again hearing that "I'm leaving a lot on the table" when I don't do these things as routers were never made for music.

For me that's a bold statement that is being thrown around and it seems that unless I go down the hole my system is suspect

So here's my question for the pundits. It is a question that I am always asked by a very close friend and member here. It puts things in perspective. We always ask each other these same 2 questions when we change or modify our equipment

1. If the Extreme plus a standard router is worth $1.00 then what is the value of the Extreme + tricked out router with switches, stacked switches etc etc.......

$1.05?

$ 1.10?

125?

Please give me an idea what one means in terms of value left on the table based on one model worth $1.00. Then how much is the other model worth in relation to $1.00?

Having asked that question I follow up always with another question...

2. Is what I am hearing something better or just something different? If it is something better, then in what way is it better?

 

[wil]

I think Steve makes really good points. It's a very attractive notion to be happy with what you've got and not go through the turmoil of rabbit hole digging. That being said, I'm thankful for the diggers. Emile is going to keep pushing and we will all benefit from it. The Extreme will be up-gradable. I like Mike L's approach. Let the tunnel explorers do their thing and in 6 months see where the dust settles.

I, personally, can think of few things I would rather NOT do than a/b compare switches, cables, power supplies, re-clockers, fuses, direction of fuses for christ sake....

A big thank you to the Emile's and the Romaz's who are willing, a maybe even enjoy, doing the dirty work!

 

[adamaley]

I think Steve makes really good points. It's a very attractive notion to be happy with what you've got and not go through the turmoil of rabbit hole digging. That being said, I'm thankful for the diggers. Emile is the master digger. He is going to keep pushing and we will all benefit from it. The Extreme will be up-gradable. I like Mike L's approach. Let the tunnel explorers do their thing and in 6 months see where the dust settles.

I, personally, can think of few things I would rather NOT do than a/b compare switches, cables, power supplies, re-clockers, fuses, direction of fuses for christ sake....

A big thank you to the Emile's and the Romaz's who are willing, a maybe even enjoy, doing the dirty work!

Years ago, folks were arguing bits were bits. Just get a laptop/PC and output via USB. Others insisted otherwise and experimented with CAPS, etc. Sonore came up with the microrendu endpoint, separating both systems, then the Extreme came about as the pinnacle of a one box solution thus far.

None of my network enhancements have been tuning of the sound. The net effect has almost resulted in a wholesale improvement of my streaming music.

 

[Rhapsody]

I wasn't going to comment in the thread because my point is indeed getting old. For me this is the best thread on the forum and I didn't realize that differing opinions aren't welcome. I do value and truly love reading all of these reviews . This thread is my favorite

Putting that aside for one moment I replied as I did in response to a comment made by a member that if one is having to spend a large sum of money on the Extreme why does he have to spend more monies doing all of these mods when the Extreme should do it all. I totally agree because for me I love the Extreme in my system. To me it is a standalone piece of equipment.

I did take Emile's advice and I'm done save for possibility of auditioning an LPS.

I also get it and agree that change in routers etc etc might make a digfference but what created my knee jerk reaction was once again hearing that "I'm leaving a lot on the table" when I don't do these things as routers were never made for music.

For me that's a bold statement that is being thrown around and it seems that unless I go down the hole my system is suspect

So here's my question for the pundits. It is a question that I am always asked by a very close friend and member here. It puts things in perspective. We always ask each other these same 2 questions when we change or modify our equipment

1. If the Extreme plus a standard router is worth $1.00 then what is the value of the Extreme + tricked out router with switches, stacked switches etc etc.......

$1.05?

$ 1.10?

125?

Please give me an idea what one means in terms of value left on the table based on one model worth $1.00. Then how much is the other model worth in relation to $1.00?

Having asked that question I follow up always with another question...

2. Is what I am hearing something better or just something different? If it is something better, then in what way is it better?

Hi Steve,

What about this-

I send you a JCAT Gold switch with a no questions asked return for a 30 day trial. We have Emile or Roy(Romaz) or one of the other network enlighteners look at your modem/ router/ISP set up and decide if anything on the router side makes sense. The JCAT comes with two each 2M Lan cables.

You may or may not hear a difference between copper or fiber. You might want to try both? Sort of depends on your distances and cable run lengths.

Come on Steve, jump down the rabbit hole. Have some fun It could be good for a month's worth of posts on this thread)

 

[Hieukm]

Hi Steve,

What about this-

I send you a JCAT Gold switch with a no questions asked return for a 30 day trial. We have Emile or Roy(Romaz) or one of the other network enlighteners look at your modem/ router/ISP set up and decide if anything on the router side makes sense. The JCAT comes with two each 2M Lan cables.

You may or may not hear a difference between copper or fiber. You might want to try both? Sort of depends on your distances and cable run lengths.

Come on Steve, jump down the rabbit hole. Have some fun It could be good for a month's worth of posts on this thread)

Post your video with and without the switch. Anyone who can’t accept there is a difference then no need to waste time.

 

[Rhapsody]

Post your video with and without the switch. Anyone who can’t accept there is a difference then no need to waste time.

Fun idea but the last thing I'll do is shoot videos comparing network switches. No thank you

I'm not trying to prove anything. I would just like Steve to hear for himself and make up his own mind based on what he hears in his system over a few weeks of listening.

 

[Hieukm]

Fun idea but the last thing I'll do is shoot videos comparing network switches. No thank you

I'm not trying to prove anything. I would just like Steve to hear for himself and make up his own mind based on what he hears in his system over a few weeks of listening.

I thought you already did. Marcin posted. I though video is more convincing.

 

[Rhapsody]

I thought you already did. Marcin posted. I though video is more convincing.

I didn't see what he posted. I just received the switch either yesterday or the day before. The days are blending together

I might have posted a video and the posted one once I inserted the switch. If I did it would not mean anything, it was fresh out of the box. It changed significantly after 8 hours. After 30 hours it's TOTALLY different. Until it levels out for two days, hard to say what the final result is.

I would be content if it stayed as it is at 30 hours. Although I have the Optimo 3 Duo, but not for another 3 weeks, so until the ps is inserted the final result will not be known. By then some other gizmo will surface.

THE LAST THINK I THOUGHT THAT WOULD PIQUE MY INTEREST WOULD BE NETWORK DEVICES.

I am truly amazed that the network side is unfolding as it is for me personally. Everyone has their own experience. I am thoroughly enjoying my "network interlude".

 

[Rhapsody]

I thought you already did. Marcin posted. I though video is more convincing.

Actually I heard a not so subtle difference within an hour of installing the switch. The thing is that I believe that might work in my situation might have no effect somewhere else.

I had a serious bottleneck originally feeding my Extreme off of my Verizon Router, which was VERY busy/dirty. Once I removed that bottleneck with the Edge router, it wasn't that it was so much the Edge router. It was just a dedicated router for the Extreme. Adding the switch made about the same SIGNIFICANT differences in my sonics, BUT that has a LOT to do with my set up.

That's why I would want Steve to try it in his set up.

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi Bob

I appreciate the kind offer but honestly that isn't where my head is at. It isn't an itch that I even have let alone remotely need to scratch

Lets get the thread back on topic which IIRC was called "Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème"

I can tell you that I have had countless offline offers and PM's to try many of these switches, cables etc and I have declined all offers.I'm at a really good place now with my system. Other than some minor interest in an LPS I truly have reached end game. I have a new cartridge and arm coming and I have been doing nothing now but listening to and enjoying the music.. For me the Extreme has changed up everything.

I'll let you guys enjoy all of the rest but I am truly happy.

So nuff said for me as I don't want to be a buzz buster

 

[Sablon Audio]

For many of us, IT is a dark art - something mysterious which we try to avoid - and I can understand how many might swerve away from switches etc. If we however try to visualise the network delivering our music as a compact disc, then things may start to make more sense.

With a basic domestic router / ethernet and all its inherent noise pollution, that CD is scratched and smeared with grease. Let’s call that the base point on a scale of 1 to 10.

What would a '10' be? I guess multiple swiches / lps / fibre etc. That imaginary CD has been cleaned and polished / the edges lathed and covered in green pen / the centre blacked out / Nespa’d etc.

Where were most people on this scale back in the day of playing CDs? Probably 3-5 I guess, with some cleaning and green penning going on but avoiding the OCD rabbit hole of tedious lathing and nespa’ing. The network equivalent of this would be using a decent ethernet cable / installing an LPS on your router / using some form of galvanic isolation.

The network signal is extremely susceptible to high frequency noise which is best exorcised and I think the important thing here is to find a level of noise management which one personally feels comfortable with.

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Bob

I appreciate the kind offer but honestly that isn't where my head is at. It isn't an itch that I even have let alone remotely need to scratch

Lets get the thread back on topic which IIRC was called "Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème"

I can tell you that I have had countless offline offers and PM's to try many of these switches, cables etc and I have declined all offers.I'm at a really good place now with my system. Other than some minor interest in an LPS I truly have reached end game. I have a new cartridge and arm coming and I have been doing nothing now but listening to and enjoying the music.. For me the Extreme has changed up everything.

I'll let you guys enjoy all of the rest but I am truly happy.

So nuff said for me as I don't want to be a buzz buster

Howdy Steve, Happy Easter!!!

I totally get it. Enjoy the music, that's all that matters!!!!