Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Christiaan Punter]

They do recommend updating the control app first, but it doesn’t seem to make a difference in practice which one you do first. I wasn’t too happy today to find that my Roon core had automatically updated itself to 2.0 overnight, so I had no option but to update my iOS apps.

I have absolutely no intention of installing ARC and agree that the likely knock on impact on SQ are only likely to be negative. I don’t really understand the appeal of ARC - if I wanted music on the move, I would just use the Qobuz app and get similar benefit without compromising the security of my Roon Core. Oh well, XDMS here I come!

Edit - For any anxious Roon users, I can detect no adverse impact on SQ of Roon 2.0 and in fact, in my system, it has improved, albeit only to where it was previously. Of late, I had detected a loss of high end detail and clarity and was only yesterday messing around testing everything to try and ascertain how this had come about. With a fresh Roon 2.0 installation, this detail is back and I am happy. This is on my system with my ears so YMMV.

Edit - I probably should have read this. It advises how to avoid ’upgrading’ to Roon 2.0 if anyone is interested. https://community.roonlabs.com/t/how-to-stay-on-old-version-instead-update-to-2-0/213343/24?page=2

That link is definitely worth repeating and highlighting.

Here's how to stick with 1.8 "Legacy" while riding out the developments of 2.0. It won't be supported indefinitely, but at least until the end of 2022:
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/how-to-stay-on-old-version-instead-update-to-2-0/213343/24?page=2

PS: Roon should not auto-install. Auto-downloads happen for more minor updates, but they should only be installed after restarting the server or the server software.

Correction: I just noticed that Roon 2.0 is actually enforced. I couldn't access the Grimm MU1 from the tablet unless I updated it. I haven't looked at Roon on the Extreme just yet but will do, at some point...

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Sorry for a beginner’s question (still waiting for delivery):

When you don’t want to fool around with roon’s compromised sound and xdms still only in test versions, what would I use to run my Extreme?

Either TAS or Roon. But, honestly, if you want smooth sailing, I would use Roon for the time being. It works well and still provides much better sound quality than other servers running Roon. Get comfortable with the server, enjoy your music, and when the time comes, switch to XDMS.

 

[simorag]

Sorry for a beginner’s question (still waiting for delivery):

When you don’t want to fool around with roon’s compromised sound and xdms still only in test versions, what would I use to run my Extreme?

The only other option I am aware of is TAS, which is great for SQ, but has some shortcomings that may be of importance or not depending on many subjective factors.

If you play local files and know in advance what to play, then TAS simple interface does the job very nicely, provided the gaps between the tracks don't bother you.

When it comes to streaming and/or discovery mode, the experience provided by Roon is vastly superior, the content-rich interface takes the overall enjoyment from a listening session to a whole new level, at least intellecually if not strictly sonically.

In my experience, defining Roon sound as "compromised" is a bit of an exaggeration. The Extreme with Roon still sounds spectacular. Yes, TAS is even better, but not by a huge margin in my system, and sometimes the smoother, rounder, more laid back presentation from Roon can even be preferrable depending on the recording, the mood etc..

Now, I really look forward to XDMS as the best of both worlds, with unquestionably superior SQ vs. Roon, great GUI, near-gapless playback, but if you would not want to venture into the unavoidable pains of Alpha testing, Roon + TAS for critical listening of very good recordings, preferrably whole albums, preferrably non-classical is the way I would go.

 

[Rhapsody]

I see two fundamental reasons why Roon v2.0 will lead to reduced SQ:

Reason 1 - RoonLabs' System Complexity just took a great jump up
A) They have a new mobile client (ARC) for iOS and Android to maintain that must be capable of rendering music over a vastly different set of underlying hardware models (# cores, # RAM, quality of the built-in DAC) for a plethora of mobile devices and most likely local endpoints (headphones, speakers) reached via Bluetooth
B) They have a new transport protocol to maintain between ARC and RoonCore - this is complex matter that must offer top-notch stability (they are competing with e.g. Spotify who I know has spent 10s of man years on their protocol) over a plethora of conditions: 3G-, 4G-, 5G-networks, network roaming etc.
C) RoonCore now must enact a server-role visavis ARC over the new protocol
RoonLabs' now must maintain a lot more code over time -> less capacity left for focusing on SQ

Reason 2 - RoonLab's End User's Consumption model is likely to shift towards on-the-go-consumption via ARC running on mobile
RoonLabs are not stupid - if they had not proper evidence from prior discovery work they would not go this way -> they are fairly certain that it is worth the no-doubt big investment in system complexity, i.e. enough Roon users will be using ARC to connect remotely to their RoonCores and consume their content via Roon playlists with content transported from RoonCore via the new protocol over various mobile networks into ARC to be rendered by ARC over mobile phone HW onto headphones, over Bluetooth most often.
The SQ requirement for these end users to be content will , over time, set the bar for how much SQ is needed -> less focus on SQ

So, I see Roon v2.0 as a double-whammy blow against SQ.

I do not care about Roon - I switched to TAS 2m ago and have not started Roon since - due to SQ. I do my discovery from my desktop, leveraging Qobuz' Mac-client - that works very well. As a consequence - I will not update my 12m license for Roon.

Now I am (along many others I am sure) awaiting Apple's scrutiny of the new XDMS Alpha-client so I can take the step up to XDMS...

Very well stated!!!

 

[wil]

The only other option I am aware of is TAS, which is great for SQ, but has some shortcomings that may be of importance or not depending on many subjective factors.

If you play local files and know in advance what to play, then TAS simple interface does the job very nicely, provided the gaps between the tracks don't bother you.

When it comes to streaming and/or discovery mode, the experience provided by Roon is vastly superior, the content-rich interface takes the overall enjoyment from a listening session to a whole new level, at least intellecually if not strictly sonically.

In my experience, defining Roon sound as "compromised" is a bit of an exaggeration. The Extreme with Roon still sounds spectacular. Yes, TAS is even better, but not by a huge margin in my system, and sometimes the smoother, rounder, more laid back presentation from Roon can even be preferrable depending on the recording, the mood etc..

Now, I really look forward to XDMS as the best of both worlds, with unquestionably superior SQ vs. Roon, great GUI, near-gapless playback, but if you would not want to venture into the unavoidable pains of Alpha testing, Roon + TAS for critical listening of very good recordings, preferrably whole albums, preferrably non-classical is the way I would go.

I think much of the criticism of Roon tends to be exaggerated. While I usually prefer TAS, sometimes, depending on the music, I like Roon's sound better. They are different, not necessarily better or worse.

So far, the reports I've read are that 2.0 is not the sonic disaster that some were worried about. And it's good to know the ARC mobile is optional.

But, I'm grateful for TAS and XDMS. And as far as classical with TAS, the small gaps between tracks is usually not an issue at all for me.

 

[Cyrus]

With a major version leap like this one, Roon always recommends making sure that the tablet and server apps are the same versions. I believe they advise updating the tablet/remote apps before the server but I'm not 100% sure of that and you may want to look that up.

***Roon 2.0 has moved to different build numbers.***

"With the release of Roon 2.0 we will not be attempting to force a match between build numbers of Roon Core, Remote, Bridge, or ARC. Release notes will call out the applicable build numbers and we will always keep the Roon – Current Production Versions 161 post up-to-date."

 

[Christiaan Punter]

***Roon 2.0 has moved to different build numbers.***

"With the release of Roon 2.0 we will not be attempting to force a match between build numbers of Roon Core, Remote, Bridge, or ARC. Release notes will call out the applicable build numbers and we will always keep the Roon – Current Production Versions 161 post up-to-date."

Thanks for pointing that out, Cyrus

 

[Rhapsody]

XDMS is more ANALOG LIKE, although not in the way one would imagine.

With vinyl it's pretty automatic to at least listen at least one side of the record vs listening to individual tracks.

With streaming via Roon or TAS I usually listened to playlists or played a few tracks from an album that I liked.

With XDMS I have found myself, over the last week, pretty much never listening to individual tracks. I load an album into the Queue and listen to the album all the way through. Every track sounds so amazing, even tracks that in the past I would not listen to, now each song/track that plays seems to be a revelation.

Long live XDMS!

 

[steve williams]

I feel the same Bob. I read about people having issues with ROON 2.0.Well at the moment XDMS is far from a perfect platform but daily work on it gets us ever closer. However at the end of the day for my ears it is the SQ that destroys Roon and TAS. Now if I could only sell my lifetime Roon subscription.

 

[Rhapsody]

I feel the same Bob. I read about people having issues with ROON 2.0.Well at the moment XDMS is far from a perfect platform but daily work on it gets us ever closer. However at the end of the day for my ears it is the SQ that destroys Roon and TAS. Now if I could only sell my lifetime Roon subscription.

Maybe we can find someone that is looking for a "two-fer sale" Roon lifetime subscription.

 

[dminches]

I find it interesting that people are making a final comparison about server / playback software without even hearing the final products.

I wonder what Emile @Taiko Audio listens to currently…

 

[Rhapsody]

I find it interesting that people are making a final comparison about server / playback software without even hearing the final products.

I wonder what Emile @Taiko Audio listens to currently…

It's easy to compare even alpha XDMS with ANYTHING else. Nothing comes close.

Emile doesn't listen right now, he's too busy with the 19 projects that he has in the works:0)

 

[EuroDriver]

It's easy to compare even alpha XDMS with ANYTHING else. Nothing comes close.

Emile doesn't listen right now, he's too busy with the 19 projects that he has in the works:0)

Where’s the dislike button ?

i have joined Emile in the far two busy club

LoL

 

[Rhapsody]

Where’s the dislike button ?

i have joined Emile in the far two busy club

LoL

But you, Emile, Christiaan and team are making a LOT of people very happy. THANK YOU!!!

 

[MusicFellow]

With XDMS I have found myself, over the last week, pretty much never listening to individual tracks. I load an album into the Queue and listen to the album all the way through. Every track sounds so amazing, even tracks that in the past I would not listen to, now each song/track that plays seems to be a revelation.

For me these type of changes in listening habits are the real evidence that something changed substantially for the positive!!

Thank you Taiko Team for the great efforts you go through to make such an experience possible!

 

[Rhapsody]

This may not apply to you but some of us listen to music that significantly benefits from gapless playback which is currently not an option in either TAS or XDMS.

I've listened to Abbey Road since the day it was released as many on this forum have. I think I have 10 copies of AR on vinyl. If I would want to listen to AR I would just listen to it on vinyl. Although I have not listened to AR for I think maybe 10 years now. My musical tastes have changed. I have visitors from around the world on a weekly basis. I have been turned on to so much music, not necessarily new, that I never knew that existed from Classical, Jazz (early and late), South American, alternative rock etc,. I am overwhelmed with so much music now with streaming and if there are a few albums that require gapless, ie, Pink Floyd, Abbey Road and a few others, then I would listen to them on vinyl, which I have four TT's on which to do so. But like I said I just don't happen to listen to those albums even on vinyl. SO, for me it's not an issue.

BUT I understand for others it is. I also understand if you only listen to classical it is a real issue.

As Emile said gapless is coming. I am totally content now with XDMS in it's present state. Why not enjoy the 50+M tracks that are available now and save the X number of albums that require gapless to listen to in a few months from now?

I was coasting through my Qobuz fav's and ran across Abbey Road. Above I stated that I had not listened to AR for a long time, which was true. It was given as an example where the gaps in XDMS made AR almost unlistenable. Along with Classical.

I listened to AR all the way through the entire album, gaps and all. I have a different take on the experience vs what others expressed.

I almost needed the gaps in between tracks to catch my breath. I've never heard AR sound the way that I just experienced it. The vinyl is great, but playing via XDMS, although different than vinyl, is just as, if not more enjoyable to me. ymmv. In short MIND BLOWING!

Not just saying this, but I didn't even notice the gaps as the overall experience was so intoxicating.

 

[steve williams]

I was coasting through my Qobuz fav's and ran across Abbey Road. Above I stated that I had not listened to AR for a long time, which was true. It was given as an example where the gaps in XDMS made AR almost unlistenable. Along with Classical.

I listened to AR all the way through the entire album, gaps and all. I have a different take on the experience vs what others expressed.

I almost needed the gaps in between tracks to catch my breath. I've never heard AR sound the way that I just experienced it. The vinyl is great, but playing via XDMS, although different than vinyl, is just as, if not more enjoyable to me. ymmv. In short MIND BLOWING!

Not just saying this, but I didn't even notice the gaps as the overall experience was so intoxicating.

which version did you play with XDMS

 

[Rhapsody]

which version did you play with XDMS

I had to go back and look. It was the 2019 mix.

Edit- I REALLY enjoyed the 24 bonus tracks on the 2019 mix, which I had never heard before. I would NEVER have listened to the extra 24 bonus studio tracks before, but I found myself mesmerized by them. Like being in the studio with them, way back when. Very enjoyable.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Dear Emile and Edward,
This thread is now 615 pages long with more than 12k posts.
It's quite difficult to read through and locate specific info.

On #12067, we are happy to know that the new Origami chassis is ready and is a more affordable choice for Extreme customers.

It's mentioned that the coming optional BMS might be able to be put together with the server section into ONE Origami chassis.
Is this correct?

I would also like to know more about the new powersupply section/circuit boards which employs Gallium Nitride components (showed during the Munich Show in May).
Is it ready now or very soon?
Is this an option and can be offered to current Extreme Server owners as a powersupply upgrade?
If some Extreme owners don't want to install BMS, can this newer and better powersupply section be avaialble and installed without the battery section?
Can this new powersupply section be installed and replaced the old one inside the current CNC Extreme chassis?

Many thanks for your answers in advance!

Hi CK,

Not ignoring this! Will reply in depth when I get a chance!

 

[Taiko Audio]

I think much of the criticism of Roon tends to be exaggerated. While I usually prefer TAS, sometimes, depending on the music, I like Roon's sound better. They are different, not necessarily better or worse.

So far, the reports I've read are that 2.0 is not the sonic disaster that some were worried about. And it's good to know the ARC mobile is optional.

But, I'm grateful for TAS and XDMS. And as far as classical with TAS, the small gaps between tracks is usually not an issue at all for me.

Indeed, it is the default software the Extreme ships with. I don’t think Roon sounds bad at all, we have it sounding better then LMS (Logitech Media Server). TAS is a modification of LMS with extensions developed by us, sounding quite a bit better then LMS, however ultimately held back by using LMS. XDMS is something entirely different and unique. However TAS never made it past BETA and development stopped a very long time ago already, and XDMS, as you all know is in Alpha stage. So Roon remains the default software. We have a nice network card / switch combination launching this year which gives it quite a dramatic boost in performance IMHO. I have zero problems listening to that.