Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Taiko Audio]

But how does it compare with wire network in terms of sound quality?

The obvious problem with this is the network setup is different everywhere. But typically wired performs better. It can all sound pretty acceptable though, so I don’t tend to be overstress what to use and what not to use.

I would rank sound quality:
1) Fiber networking
2) Copper ethernet
3) Wireless extender

But they can all sound good, and I’m sticking to your USB cable having a much larger impact

Obviously I’m all for squeezing every last drop of performance out of our systems, but there are just too many variables in play in networked systems, it’s just different in every home, which makes it impossible for me to provide bulletproof advice. I can only provide some guidelines and share my own experiences.

If you want to tune your networking your results are not going to mirror other peoples results, and therefor experimentation becomes necessary.

What I have done is make the Extreme much more resilient to differences in network architectures. Even more so if you hook it up over fiber. But it will just sound good in every networking environment.

Although it is relatively speaking not an area of very large interest to me, I am testing a lot of network gear and may come up with a more extended list of recommendations somewhere in the future. This does include switches, wireless routers and access points. I do not spend a lot of time on it, maybe 2 hours a week on average, as there are areas where much larger gains can be obtained, like managing vibrations for example.

 

[Taiko Audio]

This makes sense but then the Orbi seems not be the best solution for Extreme because two Orbis communicate in the 5GHz band with each other.

Matt

Yes, but I’m unaware of current, easy to obtain, 2.4G only or configurable wireless extenders.

The Extreme does perform just fine with an Orbi, wired is better though.

 

[matthias]

Yes, but I’m unaware of current, easy to obtain, 2.4G only or configurable wireless extenders.

AFAIK, the TP-Link RE650 can do it.

Matt

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Taiko,
The problem is that most of your other wi-fi networked clients either only support 2.4 GHz or are distant enough to require the extra wall penetrating power of 2.4GHz so you need to share the 2.4GHz band with other clients. With 3 Band routers it is possible to dedicate a 5Ghz band solely to audio, picking up the wi-fi router transmission on a modified TPLinkRE650 (LPS so no 230v conversion, no wall mounting or cheap SMPS) with both 5GHz polling and the 2.4Ghz band disabled. A high quality ethernet cable takes the stream from the RE650 to either a reclocker or directly into the server, whichever sounds best. I tried a lot of other alternatives including 2 different Mesh installations and this gave by far the best sound quality. The benefits are, no wi-fi transmitter in the hi-fi room, no SMPSs, no bandwidth sharing so no dropped packets and a GUI that is so fast it feels like a local, hardwired solution
And to answer microstrip’s question, in my installation it sounded better than hardwired (even using SR CAT6 Active ethernet cable), presumably because of the isolation.

I actually do something similar, yet different, if we are persisting on discussing wireless.

As our company space is stretched out over around 50 meters / 160 feet, we have to use 3 wireless accesspoints to cover most of it. We do use dual band 2.4 and 5 GHz. But we’re connecting all company (non audio related) devices to the 5G band and only my Ipad (Roon remote) is connected to 2.4G. All these accesspoints are spaced away as far as possible from the audioroom and the 5G signal is weak there. If I move an accesspoint to within around 15 meters / 50 feet it starts to impact sound. Nothing huge, but it is noticable.

 

[Taiko Audio]

AFAIK, the TP-Link RE650 can do it.

Matt

Well that’s great, it’s cheaper too! I did not test that one though. Again it’s a bit out of my scope of interest. I would only use one if practical considerations demanded it.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I feel I should add something here:

Wireless networking does negatively impact your hifi system. It is airborne high frequency noise.

I have posted before on why we use a hole pattern in stead of slots for ventilation, it shields from high frequency noise. See: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-19#post-572517

This is a 2 way street, the Extreme is pretty well shielded from outside rfi noise, though not immune, almost nothing is unless being explicitly designed to be that. But it is much more immune to RFI then for example an Intel NUC.

Now take a good look at chassis openings in your other hifi equipment and consider cabling, rarely completely shielded, your in wall power wiring etc.

Wireless networking transmissions are going to find their way into your system. It’s just part of living in this age and time.

You can obsess about it, some people do, in fact there was a guy in The Netherlands with a dedicated listening room which was essentially inside a Faraday cage.

If you can accept it’s part of our lives now, and it provides services you are more then happy to use, why object to using something like a wireless extender, or even just use wireless networking as your main infrastructure? Especially when you have even stronger noise sources to deal with, which can make this a really minor issue.

If you’re asking me what in my experience least impacts sound quality in networking, wireless is going to be at the bottom of my list. Not just by how it works, not even because the networking stack is more complex on the software side, as that does not come into play using extenders, however I completely removed all wireless support from the Operating System on the Extreme on purpose. But just because it sprays your system with RF.

How bad is that really, well in severe cases it will make Qobuz sound like Tidal.

 

[Blackmorec]

I don’t have an Extreme (I use an Innuos Statement) but I’m guessing the principles are still the same. I have just spent the past 18 months trying to figure out the optimum way to get the very best results from local and remote streaming. My initial goal was to make my digital system sound as enjoyable and involving as my Analog system, which was competent if not SoTA (Michell Orbe, SME IV, Ortofon Cadenza Black).
The first observation I would make it that surprisingly (for me at least) every improvement I made to the remote streaming, seemed to have a correspondingly positive effect on local streaming. In other words, as I improved remote streaming, sometimes quite dramatically, it didn’t catch or surpass the locally stored files. They simply both improved. I have 2 branches of the consumer electronics store Curries reasonably close by, so I could obtain all manner of networking products on 30 day trial. This allowed me to try a wide array of strategies including wired connections, mesh connections and various wi-fi strategies.
Like most modern households I have probably 8 to 10 wireless devices connected to my wi-fi router. They break down into fixed items, mobile items, high res audio and high res video.
I use Qobuz for remote streaming and most of my local files are CDs ripped to WAV.
So here are the things that made significant differences for me when setting up my network.
1. Removing all switched mode power supplies from the network chain. In my case this included removing the SMPS built into the wi-fi extender (which actually works as a network access point). All power supplies in my network are Sean Jacobs designed DC3s, so my entire system is based on the same PS design with the same ultra low noise and ripple characteristics.
2. Adding high quality cables for all ethernet connections (I use Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref throughout)
3. Vibration control for all network devices. I use Atacama Evoque tables under all modems, routers and power supplies. They are small enough to be very unobtrusive. I built a special anti-vibration mount for the RE650 extender, which of course no longer plugs into the wall (so doesn’t get vibrated by the 230V-DC conversion and the wall itself)
4. DC cables...I use JSSG360 screened Neotech 7N cables throughout build by Ghent Audio in China. This is an extremely reliable supplier and highly recommended.
5. Router....I needed to integrate my Audio streaming with the rest of my household wi-fi requirements. I found the best way to do this was to switch my ISP provided Superhub router to modem only mode and connect it to a TPLink Archer 5400 Tri-Band router. In this way, the router has sufficient power to reach all network clients and I can dedicate one band to audio, with no sharing. This allows me to place the high power wi-fi source well away from my hi-fi room, with only a wi-fi receiver active in the room itself, so no high power source of wi-fi (neither 2,4 or 5GHz ) EMI bathing the hi-fi.
6. There are no wi-fi connections active in the hi-fi itself and with the performance of the TPLink Archer and RE650 the connection is so fast that the wi-fi spends most of its time idle, operating in very short very fast bursts.
7. Wi-fi itself sounds superior to a wired connection. At the very start I believed that a wired connection would be superior and ordered a long run of SR Ethernet Active, which indeed sounded pretty good. But isolating the system from modem and router noise brought clear improvements. Ive tried the wired solution on several occasions but each time concluded that the isolation that wi-fi brings is beneficial, regardless of router, power supply etc.
8. Finally, post server I tried a number of different strategies to connect my Zenith SE (then) and Statement (now) to my DAC. To get me started I borrowed a Chord C USB cable, which sounded fairly decent. I then went on to try a SoTM TX-USBUltra with sPS-500 supply plugged into my hi-fi’s dedicated mains supply but could never get that to the point it sounded better than straight cable, despite lots of anti-vibration measures, special cables and 400+ hours of running in. In hindsight I probably should have tried a Linear Power Supply, but hey-ho. I tried several other USB cables from Vovox, Chord, Tellurium and Audioquest before settling on a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref, which to my ears sounded substantially better than the others.

So how does it all sound? Well the first thing I would say is that I’ve rarely if every heard sound quality this good and this engaging with so much 3 dimensional immersion, drive, energy and enthusiasm and that from QOBUZ standard 16/44.1 . I sold my vinyl set up some time ago as the digital system made it sound ‘old’, with poorer, less focussed imaging, poorer dynamics, a lot more noise and frankly just less enjoyment. The fuss and bother of records no longer rewarded with superior anything and it really did come down to ‘why bother?’ I don’t know what you’d need to spend on vinyl to make it as good or better but I suspect I wouldn’t be prepared to foot that bill or cope with what is after all a major usage and maintenance hassle compared to a simple IPad Pro interface.
Anyway, to conclude, there are major gains to be made when addressing things like network EMI sources, bandwidth optimization, power supply noise, cable radiation and/or absorption and vibration control. Ignore these and you leave a lot of musical performance unrealised.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank you for sharing. Vinyl SOTA is not just about the setup itself. You need analogue mastered pressings for it to outshine digital. Once the source is converted to digital and subsequently mastered, cleaned up and/or compressed, you lose that what can make Vinyl (and tape) playback special on those recordings.

 

[matthias]

5. Router....I needed to integrate my Audio streaming with the rest of my household wi-fi requirements. I found the best way to do this was to switch my ISP provided Superhub router to modem only mode and connect it to a TPLink Archer 5400 Tri-Band router. In this way, the router has sufficient power to reach all network clients and I can dedicate one band to audio, with no sharing. This allows me to place the high power wi-fi source well away from my hi-fi room, with only a wi-fi receiver active in the room itself, so no high power source of wi-fi (neither 2,4 or 5GHz ) EMI bathing the hi-fi.

Thank you for sharing these very interesting details.

Did you compare the SQ of 2,4GHz vs. 5GHz connection between the Archer 5400 and the RE650?

Matt

 

[LeBlanc]

In this Audiobacon review Jay Luong also describes differences between wired and WiFi, ethernet vs fiber and the importance of power supplies throughout the network: https://audiobacon.net/2019/11/02/the-jcat-signature-lan-a-1000-ethernet-cable/.

 

[Sablon Audio]

In this Audiobacon review Jay Luong also describes differences between wired and WiFi, ethernet vs fiber and the importance of power supplies throughout the network: https://audiobacon.net/2019/11/02/the-jcat-signature-lan-a-1000-ethernet-cable/.

i would agree with Jay’s comparison of wifi v lan cable over a longer length. My SGM server was a 50ft away from the modem in a straight line and I preferred the sound of wifi over this length to hardwiring. That said, I have the startech fibre modules recommended by Emile ready for my Extreme arrives.

 

[Taiko Audio]

USA trip report PART1:

Around 3 weeks ago, on the 15th of October, me and my colleague Ted departed from Amsterdam to fly to LA to visit some Extreme customers and WBF forum members.

First stop fearless forum leader Steve Williams. Steve was so kind to pick us op from LAX and drive us to his home in Orange County where we had dinner and drinks with his lovely wife. We then went up to checkout Steve's dedicated listening room and do some initial listening. I currently don't use tube amps myself for practical considerations, but I've been a "tube guy" for most of my audiophile life. I started out with Krell, owned all of their models around 30 years ago, moved to Mark Levinson, then moved to several VTL and Manley amplifiers in the 100-500w range, moved to SE amps and eventually horns, 300B, 845, 211, 813, and finally returned to VTL 750W amps (I'm a sucker for large scale orchestra) before moving back to SS. From the first tone there was this instant moment of recognition, magical midrange as only the best of SE amplifiers can do. Steve's system has this in spades, it sounds glorious, it breathes music. There is zero listening fatigue, only musical bliss. Steve told us he can listen to his system for entire days without tiring, I believe him. We listened to some Qobuz, Vinyl and tape, it all sounded great. I did detect a slight mechanical quality to the digital performance, Steve told us he just inserted Center Stage footers underneath the Extreme the day before and those require a very significant settling time of about a week and sound very bad initially. I did not think it sounded that bad but suggested to try a few different locations for the footers. Big mistake, the soundstage just collapsed, the sound turned gritty, it was just plain horrible. He was not kidding about that settling time! We moved the footers back to their original location which did not help and called it a night.

We stayed over at Steve's house, had breakfast the next morning and returned to his listening room for some more listening. Wow those footers had transformed overnight and it sounded even better then when we arrived. After we left Steve kept us up to date on the progression over the next few days and as I understand it's on a whole different level now. Lesson learned, the Center Stage footers make a huge difference but be prepared to be suffer initially. This is the most shocking settling behaviour I have thus far experienced, amazing.

Steve told us rather then spend the day listening he would like to show us around the area prior to dropping us of at the John Wayne airport for our flight to Seattle at the end of the day to which we did not object having not been here before. We had a wonderful day, visited a few beach towns and a port, had lunch right at the beach, visited a pier with endless beach views, was cool watching surfers catching waves from above, stopped by an insanely large luxury shopping mall and saw some very impressive buildings and sights.

Steve reported on our visit in this thread here already : https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...stening-room-of-steve-williams.10535/page-109
There are several photos in there but I will post a few here as well.

 

[Blackmorec]

Thank you for sharing these very interesting details.

Did you compare the SQ of 2,4GHz vs. 5GHz connection between the Archer 5400 and the RE650?

Matt

Hi Matt,

No for several reasons
1. I have to share 2.4 GHz bandwidth with other clients. I can prioritize the RE650 but you still lose a lot of performance vs a dedicated band
2. 2.4 is a lot slower than 5GHz, especially when its shared, so there’s far more wi-fi and processor activity, by a factor of 10 or more when using 2.4GHz. 5 operates in very short, very fast bursts
3. With 5GHz the Qobuz user interface is as fast as a local hardwired solution, even when dealing with hundreds of album covers. This may sound trivial but wait until you want to scroll through hundreds of Qobuz Album favorites then you’ll see what I’m talking about.
4. There should be no negative consequences with 5GHz. The only radiation from wi-fi related activities comes from the router and that’s going to be present regardless which band you use. Given that the increased speed reduces activity, 5GHz should actually be beneficial.
5. Sources whose ears I do trust tried both and found a sonic difference in favour of 5GHz.

 

[steve williams]

USA trip report PART1:

Around 3 weeks ago, on the 15th of October, me and my colleague Ted departed from Amsterdam to fly to LA to visit some Extreme customers and WBF forum members.

First stop fearless forum leader Steve Williams. Steve was so kind to pick us op from LAX and drive us to his home in Orange County where we had dinner and drinks with his lovely wife. We then went up to checkout Steve's dedicated listening room and do some initial listening. I currently don't use tube amps myself for practical considerations, but I've been a "tube guy" for most of my audiophile life. I started out with Krell, owned all of their models around 30 years ago, moved to Mark Levinson, then moved to several VTL and Manley amplifiers in the 100-500w range, moved to SE amps and eventually horns, 300B, 845, 211, 813, and finally returned to VTL 750W amps (I'm a sucker for large scale orchestra) before moving back to SS. From the first tone there was this instant moment of recognition, magical midrange as only the best of SE amplifiers can do. Steve's system has this in spades, it sounds glorious, it breathes music. There is zero listening fatigue, only musical bliss. Steve told us he can listen to his system for entire days without tiring, I believe him. We listened to some Qobuz, Vinyl and tape, it all sounded great. I did detect a slight mechanical quality to the digital performance, Steve told us he just inserted Center Stage footers underneath the Extreme the day before and those require a very significant settling time of about a week and sound very bad initially. I did not think it sounded that bad but suggested to try a few different locations for the footers. Big mistake, the soundstage just collapsed, the sound turned gritty, it was just plain horrible. He was not kidding about that settling time! We moved the footers back to their original location which did not help and called it a night.

We stayed over at Steve's house, had breakfast the next morning and returned to his listening room for some more listening. Wow those footers had transformed overnight and it sounded even better then when we arrived. After we left Steve kept us up to date on the progression over the next few days and as I understand it's on a whole different level now. Lesson learned, the Center Stage footers make a huge difference but be prepared to be suffer initially. This is the most shocking settling behaviour I have thus far experienced, amazing.

Steve told us rather then spend the day listening he would like to show us around the area prior to dropping us of at the John Wayne airport for our flight to Seattle at the end of the day to which we did not object having not been here before. We had a wonderful day, visited a few beach towns and a port, had lunch right at the beach, visited a pier with endless beach views, was cool watching surfers catching waves from above, stopped by an insanely large luxury shopping mall and saw some very impressive buildings and sights.

Steve reported on our visit in this thread here already : https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...stening-room-of-steve-williams.10535/page-109
There are several photos in there but I will post a few here as well.

View attachment 58513

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to put things in perspective, the first photo is taken from our bedroom balcony over looking the golf course where I live. The second photo was taken as we drove up the Pacific Coast Highway just leaving Laguna Beach for a great ride up to Newport Beach. The last photo was taken from the pier at Huntington beach looking south towards Newport Beach

We started in Dana Point and drove north and then finally took Emile and Ted to LaLa Land (Newport Beach Fashion Island) just to see the pricey stores where the locals all shop

 

[Taiko Audio]

I am going to add this here to avoid confusion around this discussion: None of this applies to the Extreme. If you run a device with built in wi-fi, like an Intel NUC it's a whole different equation, apples and oranges.

EDIT: Additionally using a wireless extender with the Extreme works just fine, but please do not think of it as a tweak to extract better sound quality.

 

[Taiko Audio]

to put things in perspective, the first photo is taken from our bedroom balcony over looking the golf course where I live. The second photo was taken as we drove up the Pacific Coast Highway just leaving Laguna Beach for a great ride up to Newport Beach. The last photo was taken from the pier at Huntington beach looking south towards Newport Beach

We started in Dana Point and drove north and then finally took Emile and Ted to LaLa Land (Newport Beach Fashion Island) just to see the pricey stores where the locals all shop

And they call audiophiles crazy:

 

[CKKeung]

And they call audiophiles crazy:

View attachment 58530

 

[Blackmorec]

USA trip report PART1:
Around 3 weeks ago, on the 15th of October, me and my colleague Ted departed from Amsterdam to fly to LA to visit some Extreme customers and WBF forum members.

We listened to some Qobuz, Vinyl and tape, it all sounded great. I did detect a slight mechanical quality to the digital performance, Steve told us he just inserted Center Stage footers underneath the Extreme the day before and those require a very significant settling time of about a week and sound very bad initially. I did not think it sounded that bad but suggested to try a few different locations for the footers. Big mistake, the soundstage just collapsed, the sound turned gritty, it was just plain horrible. He was not kidding about that settling time! We moved the footers back to their original location which did not help and called it a night.

We stayed over at Steve's house, had breakfast the next morning and returned to his listening room for some more listening. Wow those footers had transformed overnight and it sounded even better then when we arrived. After we left Steve kept us up to date on the progression over the next few days and as I understand it's on a whole different level now. Lesson learned, the Center Stage footers make a huge difference but be prepared to be suffer initially. This is the most shocking settling behaviour I have thus far experienced, amazing.

Very interesting. I actually tried some IsoAcoustic Orea Bronze footers under one of my power supplies and could only stand 15 minutes before they were removed and returned to the dealer. According to him it was the first set they’d ever had returned. OOOPS!

 

[Taiko Audio]

Very interesting. I actually tried some IsoAcoustic Orea Bronze footers under one of my power supplies and could only stand 15 minutes before they were removed and returned to the dealer. According to him it was the first set they’d ever had returned. OOOPS!

Maybe you jumped the gun on those

 

[steve williams]

And they call audiophiles crazy:

View attachment 58530

To put things in perspective that photo was taken of a women‘s jacket inside Niemann Marcus or as we call it ‘Needless Markup”