Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Rhapsody]

Can you name a few? I will check them out.

- The Great Reunion Armstrong and Ellington
-MIles Davis of course- Kind of Blue
-MIles Davis - IN a Silent Way
-Afro Bossa- Duke Ellington
-Jazz at the Pawn Shop
-The Great Summit- Louis Armstrong

There are a whole bunch of these that sound amazing. ESPECIALLY FILES and with the new swithc/card

On albums that I grew up with but didn't float my boat to listen to UNTIl I got the new switch/card are things like-

-Crosby, Stills and Nash (first album)
-America
-Simon and Garfunkel
-The Doors
-King Crimson
-Dire Straits
- The Beatles White album and then Abbey Road

Stuff like this always sounded ok, but now it's revelatory with since the Switch/card.

This is just what I experience nothing to do with "the way it is".

 

[Rhapsody]

I would add that if you get the great vinyl all analogue of the 60's vinyl stuff with the titles from the DSD files I mentioned they are going to be mind blowing on a good vinyl set up. Better than the digital.

BUT the digital versions/DSD in Files sound so amazing that it's ok that the vinyl sounds better, you can still be totally enthralled with hearing them on the Extreme, especially since the switch/card arrived. Not to mention the coming of the router, the BPS and the TACDA. Buckle the seat belts.

 

[Zeotrope]

Can I ask a question to all the Extreme devotees out there?
How is the performance on older exclusively analog recordings versus newer primarily digital ones?
Comments also from those who run top TT based systems who've become enamoured with the Extreme.
I'm curious as to how eg Philips classical and Blue Note from 50s and 60s, and classic rock from 60s and 70s, and CD crossover period 80s and 90s recordings thru the world's premier digital source sound in comparison to LP, and the delta to today's 100% digital provenance recordings.
Because I still hear that Extreme is at its best with these later all digital masterings, all analog masterings from the Golden Age of recordings not so much.

It’s tempting to try to compare analog vs digital playback, but it doesn’t really work: there are simply too many variables and realities of each medium that cannot be properly compared.
What’s throttling digital, especially now with the Extreme, is the quality of the A to D conversion; not the D to A conversion.

I have played back the same exact recording on both vinyl (Nagra TT) and digital (Extreme/XDMS/Nagra DAC X), and vinyl wins, and it’s not even close (really).
But… there are many conveniences with digital, there is less noise, and the gap is narrowing all the time (especially with Taiko).
I equally enjoy both mediums. When I’m listening to the Extreme, I don’t feel as if anything is “missing” and it’s completely amazing.
And now about to install the latest Backend, which sounds like another big step up… amazing!

 

[seatrope]

I'm late to the party regarding my impressions on the Switch+Card combo now that people are frothing at the mouth for the router, but better late than never.

I was very impressed at the sense of calm that the switch by itself brought to the system - there was definitely a lowered noise floor, but was fully blown away when the new network card finally arrived. I was using the switch with the old SFP card initially. I would say in my system and to my ears, the uptick with the network card AND Taiko switch was probably 3x above the switch alone. I have not had time to test the network card alone, so this is likely due to some sort of synergy between the switch and the card; I doubt the card alone is responsible for most of the uptick.

The improvement with the card+switch combo for me (both on local file playback and Qobuz) is very dramatic with ambience retrieval. Despite the lowered noise floor with the switch alone, this did not slam me in the face until the card AND switch were installed and working together. The degree of "atmosphere" rendering has gone stratospheric (ha ha, pun intended). The sense of place and "you are there-ness" is markedly increased, a harder thing to achieve than "they are here-ness".

I would rate this combo, like some others have, as a significantly bigger step up than the USB card was, back in the day (itself a substantial improvement). Obviously the USB card is still in the system, so it's hard to figure out individual contributions.

Hard for me to go into the music room when music is playing even to grab something as kids and wife wonder if I've gotten lost somewhere.

This is truly amazing work @Taiko Audio @EuroDriver @Christiaan Punter and team. I was one of the tail end of the first batch, so I didn't get my card or switch early but am AGAIN blown away by the level of service demonstrated by the Taiko team. Everything worked smoothly first go. No shipping or damage or configuration issues, zero. I noticed that the switch came with it's nipple feet unscrewed and the packaging i suspect were modified after initial reports. Attention to every detail!
Thank you @LampiNA Fred for facilitating this too!

But again the bottom line is - I was skeptical how much improvement a switch and network card could yield. It's blown way past all of my expectations. And this is with TAS only (i've been unsuccessful in getting a XDMS invite and can only stare jealously from the window).

 

[spiritofmusic]

It’s tempting to try to compare analog vs digital playback, but it doesn’t really work: there are simply too many variables and realities of each medium that cannot be properly compared.
What’s throttling digital, especially now with the Extreme, is the quality of the A to D conversion; not the D to A conversion.

I have played back the same exact recording on both vinyl (Nagra TT) and digital (Extreme/XDMS/Nagra DAC X), and vinyl wins, and it’s not even close (really).
But… there are many conveniences with digital, there is less noise, and the gap is narrowing all the time (especially with Taiko).
I equally enjoy both mediums. When I’m listening to the Extreme, I don’t feel as if anything is “missing” and it’s completely amazing.
And now about to install the latest Backend, which sounds like another big step up… amazing!

Thanks for a sober, considered response.

 

[Rhapsody]

Can you name a few? I will check them out.

Better yet, why not come for a visit and hear them? I think that you are not that far from Brooklyn. It would be fun.

 

[John T]

I would add that if you get the great vinyl all analogue of the 60's vinyl stuff with the titles from the DSD files I mentioned they are going to be mind blowing on a good vinyl set up. Better than the digital.

BUT the digital versions/DSD in Files sound so amazing that it's ok that the vinyl sounds better, you can still be totally enthralled with hearing them on the Extreme, especially since the switch/card arrived. Not to mention the coming of the router, the BPS and the TACDA. Buckle the seat belts.

"But the digital versions/DSD in Files sound so amazing that it's ok" Exactly Bob...If people would just appreciate the nuanced differences without going directly to comparison, their musical experience will be so much more rewarding...

 

[steve williams]

The sense of place and "you are there-ness" is markedly increased, a harder thing to achieve than "they are here-ness".

I totally agree with this comment. There is such a palpable sense of reality, or a you are there experience. It is such an organic feeling that the performers are right in front of us and you can reach over and touch them. It must be heard to understand but when you go from TAS to XDMS please report back what you heard

 

[Rhapsody]

"But the digital versions/DSD in Files sound so amazing that it's ok" Exactly Bob...If people would just appreciate the nuanced differences without going directly to comparison, their musical experience will so much more rewarding...

That's for sure John, I NEVER think well the vinyl would sound better. I don't even think about how good the "sound" is that I am listening to, I am totally engrossed with the musical performances that I am listening to. Not really thinking about the system, the formats etc. Just the music.

 

[dminches]

Better yet, why not come for a visit and hear them? I think that you are not that far from Brooklyn. It would be fun.

I am in South Jersey which isn’t close but the next time I am going to be in the NYC area I will make arrangements to hear your rooms.

Thanks!

 

[Rhapsody]

It would be a fun visit, please do.

 

[seatrope]

Side question, sort of related to the Extreme.

When you guys are retagging your local files, there are options to embed cover art in tracks. Has anyone evaluated how big of a hit that is to SQ compared to having the cover art being as a separate file?

It would make sense that might impact SQ. @EuroDriver @Taiko Audio any ideas?

Thanks!

 

[steve williams]

That's for sure John, I NEVER think well the vinyl would sound better. I don't even think about how good the "sound" is that I am listening to, I am totally engrossed with the musical performances that I am listening to. Not really thinking about the system, the formats etc. Just the music.

spot on Bob....it's not so much the suspension of disbelief but rather the overall emotional engagement I feel with the music. Like you, I sit for hours just listening to the music and feeling so much a part of it.

 

[steve williams]

Side question, sort of related to the Extreme.

When you guys are retagging your local files, there are options to embed cover art in tracks. Has anyone evaluated how big of a hit that is to SQ compared to having the cover art being as a separate file?

It would make sense that might impact SQ. @EuroDriver @Taiko Audio any ideas?

Thanks!

The only thing it did for me was to increase the length of time for the scan to complete. I have noticed no decrease in SQ

 

[Zeotrope]

Thanks for a sober, considered response.

Fully agree with what Bob wrote above.
And then you have to consider content that is only available in digital, or vice-versa… so it’s really two separate - and equally enjoyable - spheres of experience, with little overlap.
The Extreme is the only digital source, along with my DAC, that has allowed me to ‘forget’ the details of the playback equipment, and just suspend my disbelief and enjoy the music.

 

[Armsan]

...so confirming: you have Reference DD and it plays as expected with XDMS? Thus far, it will not operate here. Did you need to change any settings in XDMS? Thanks for your reply @Armsan

Markus, I’ve send you a PM.
Cheers.

 

[nenon]

Can I ask a question to all the Extreme devotees out there?
How is the performance on older exclusively analog recordings versus newer primarily digital ones?
Comments also from those who run top TT based systems who've become enamoured with the Extreme.
I'm curious as to how eg Philips classical and Blue Note from 50s and 60s, and classic rock from 60s and 70s, and CD crossover period 80s and 90s recordings thru the world's premier digital source sound in comparison to LP, and the delta to today's 100% digital provenance recordings.
Because I still hear that Extreme is at its best with these later all digital masterings, all analog masterings from the Golden Age of recordings not so much.

Part I:

My analog rig is:
? Kronos Pro turntable (with the SCPS-1 power supply and Kronos stand)
? Kronos Discovery RS tonearm
? ZYX Universe II cartridge
? Ypsilon VPS100 (SE) Silver Edition Phono stage
? Ypsilon MC-L (SE) Silver Edition SUT
I also have a fully refurbished Studer A810 reel to reel.
The rest of the system consists of: custom autoformers with optional tube based active preamp section that can be turned on or off, custom made (with exotic parts) 45W SET monoblocks (2 pairs) and Cessaro horn speakers.

When I started building my own servers I had one goal only - to make my digital sound as good as my analog. That was probably good 5+ years ago. At the time my analog rig wasn’t even close to what I have today - I was playing with my own DIY turntables built from old Lenco turntables, magnetically levitated heavy platters, etc. To cut the TT story short, I realized I wasn’t the most talented turntable designer (although I was getting a huge bang for the buck with DIY) and bought a high-end turntable… and another one… and another one… until I got to the Kronos Pro. If I win from the lottery, I will probably buy the OMA TT.
But back to my digital DIY. I started with Raspberry PIs and moved to computers. I quickly realized how important power supplies were in the digital gear and after trying many, I convinced Sean Jacobs to sell me DIY LPS modules. He was hesitant at first, but then I became his first DIY client and a year later I started helping him building power supplies. The main objective for me was to have an unlimited number of rails of (what I considered the best) linear power supply. And I did have around 20 rails at some point.

I have a friend with big horn speakers in Chicago. He listens to vinyl only and will probably never have a proper digital rig in his system. But he had a modified Chinese Bada CD player. Every time I thought I was making progress with my digital, he would bring this Bada CD Player to my house, and we would compare some tracks between my digital and his CD. One of the tracks we used was Brian Bromberg - Come Together as it can sound quite harsh on a not very good digital system. The first 15 months of my journey, the CD was crushing my digital every time we did that. At some point it started difficult to pick which one was better. And perhaps another year later, my digital completely surpassed the CD player. But it still had no chances against my analog, especially with amazingly good vinyl pressings.

The best digital I had before joining the Taiko Extreme club was my DIY server, which was pretty much a DIY Taiko Extreme clone. That was really really good, probably quite close to the Extreme as it was released 4 years ago. But I still preferred my vinyl.
There were two main reasons I was DIY-ing digital servers:
1. When I started there were no commercial servers on the market that were as advanced as what we could do with DIY. We were at the bleeding edge trying things that were never tried before.
2. DIY was giving you a much better bang for the buck (assuming my time is free for me, of course).
The Extreme was the first server that changed #1 above. But it was too expensive for me to afford, so I kept going my own way.

Over the years my mind bend quite a bit regarding how much money I can spend on audio. There was a time when $500 for a component was a lot of money. Can you imagine what I thought about $10K cables at that time? It’s not difficult to guess - just go to the ASR forum and you will find many people with the opinion I had at the time.
Then the bar raised to $2K. And then to $5K. And at some point I joined the exclusive club of the crazy audiophiles (the only place in the world where a $10K power cord is just an everyday normal thing)!

I realized how much money I have spent on DIY and that I could have bought a Taiko Extreme instead. But in the back of my mind, I thought I knew better, and I could do better. I was actively in touch with Emile and it did not take long to realize that I will never get even close in a race with Taiko. Emile released the USB card, USB driver, TAS (XDMS), I heard the first prototype of the switch he was working on in Oldenzaal, and what was a secret back then some of his first battery experiments, he was building these GaN regulators, thinking about routers, PCIe DAC, etc. etc. And so, I realized I was done with DIY and the best thing I could do was join the Taiko community. To state the obvious, I never regretted that decision and never looked back. In fact, I couldn't be happier.

 

[nenon]

Part II:

My Taiko Extreme arrived a little over a year ago. I compared it to my DIY server, which was already sold, and it was better of course (although my DIY server held up surprisingly well). The Extreme got a lot better in the next 3-4 months. At that time, I already had the analog rig listed in the first paragraph in Part I of this post. So how did my digital rig compare to the analog? They were on par, but I still preferred my top 10 reference vinyl records over my top 10 reference digital files. So, I would say that my vinyl was still better.

I bought a Studer A810 reel to reel tape deck, fully refurbished by Soren Wittrup (our local Chicago expert). And I got some of the best recorded tapes, such as those released by Analogue Productions and others. Those were so much better than my top 10 reference vinyl recordings... it wasn't not even close. Of course, I got to hear some not so good recorded tapes too, and I did not care about these. But the best tapes (usually transferred from a master tape backup) were phenomenal. How did those recordings sound on my Extreme? Awful!

This experience made me realize something very important. How much money do we spend to extract the best out of a digital recording? $30K on the Extreme, $30K-$100K on a DAC, $10K+ on USB cables and power cords, etc. And how were those masterpiece recordings transferred from tape to digital? On some crappy old school Analog to digital convertor that does not even have a proper linear power supply.
Disconnect the Extreme from the DAC, connect your laptop, and play your reference tracks from YouTube. You will get much better sound compared to what these old analog to digital converters did back in the day. So, they really screwed up the conversion from analog to digital. We really need a state-of-the-art analog to digital convertor and to re-digitalize all these excellent recordings.

But that’s not the end of my story. With my top vinyl records sounding better than my digital and my top tapes sounding better than my best vinyl, some very interesting things happened in the past 6 months. It’s hard to track down the exact time or formula but things turned 180 degrees for me. Here is list of some things I've done in no particular order:
1. I got new speakers that are very revealing (large Cessaro horns).
2. A lot more work was done on my room acoustics and power.
3. Taiko’s advancements took place - mainly all the XDMS improvements plus the switch/NIC.
4. Added some QSA / QSA Lanedri cable and components (mainly prototypes I have been sent to try) - I’ll post more about that one day.
5. Made some major modification to my line stage and DAC.
I can’t tell the exact tipping point but now my digital sounds so much better than analog. It’s not even comparable. As good as these Analogue Production tapes sounded, I can hear the not so good electronics in the Studer. Yes, I considered buying the Doshi headamp, but not sure I want to spend so much money for the 10 albums on tape I really like. Vinyl does not have the transparency and the engagement levels that I get from playing Qobuz tracks (especially with the last XDMS backend update). Seriously, I haven’t touched my analog rig (since it was sitting on the throne) but now it sounds broken compared to my digital. Every time I listen to my top 10 vinyl records, I am thinking: “Really? That’s what I liked so much for all these years? It’s not bad but they sound nothing like good digital recordings”. Even tracks from Qobuz sound better than my analog. But I think I already said that .

You may wonder how about those analog recordings from the 60’s that had crappy digital transfers? Those still sound better on analog (because the digital transfer is so badly screwed up) but they lack the transparency and the bass I get from good digital tracks.
In the past four months, I’ve only played analog when friends came over and asked me to. Remember the friend with the big horns and the Bada CD player I mentioned? He is the last audiophile on the planet you will see going to digital. He is genuinely against digital. During his last visit, he said my digital sounded better and he asked me to play digital for the rest of the listening session. You can’t even imagine how big of a deal that is. I also had my friend JR from Wally Tools here a couple of weeks ago, and he said that he understands why I prefer digital and if he was listening to my system, he would be listening to digital too. He thought something was wrong with my analog. And yes, that's true - it sounds broken next to my digital .

Here is the thing, though. I’ve tweaked my system for digital playback. And I know what I need to do to raise the bar on my analog again. I can’t explain how, because it will take me the entire day to put my thoughts together. But I am confident I know how I can make my analog much more enjoyable again and will do that in the coming months. But I doubt it will surpass my digital ever again.

Let me finish my long post by quoting myself: “When I started building my own servers I had one goal only - to make my digital sound as good as my analog” - this goal was overachieved by a big margin!

Enjoy your weekend!

 

[dminches]

Let me finish my long post by quoting myself: “When I started building my own servers I had one goal only - to make my digital sound as good as my analog” - this goal was overachieved by a big margin!

Enjoy your weekend!

Wow. Amazing, yet surprising. My Extreme/Horizon combination has led to the best sound from digital recordings that I have heard in my system, but my reel and LP rigs still sound better (to me).

I need you to visit to assess!

 

[John T]

@nenon: A very well described journey or adventure! Most enjoyable...