Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

My router is definitely above 100Mps. There are no network specs on the NS1 streamer, but it is compatible with the router. The odd thing is that neither device recognizes any type of device/connection to or from the Switch. I tried re-seating the adaptors. Hmm.

Would be nice to have an LED telling me it is working at all.
On the rear panel you can see an LED light behind one of the sockets. Also, a free app such as LanScan may be helpful in troubleshooting. Rebooting the router with the Taiko switch energized and plugged in might help (apologies if you've already tried this).

Steve Z
 
My router is definitely above 100Mps. There are no network specs on the NS1 streamer, but it is compatible with the router. The odd thing is that neither device recognizes any type of device/connection to or from the Switch. I tried re-seating the adaptors. Hmm.

Would be nice to have an LED telling me it is working at all.
If you connect the NS1 streamer to your router, can you tell (by looking at your router) whether the connection is 100Mbps or 1 Gbps?
 
On the rear panel you can see an LED light behind one of the sockets. Also, a free app such as LanScan may be helpful in troubleshooting. Rebooting the router with the Taiko switch energized and plugged in might help (apologies if you've already tried this).

Steve Z
Good suggestions. Thanks!
If you connect the NS1 streamer to your router, can you tell (by looking at your router) whether the connection is 100Mbps or 1 Gbps?
I can probably do a diagnostic. The previous Etherregen Switch was 1 Gps.
 
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Good suggestions. Thanks!

I can probably do a diagnostic. The previous Etherregen Switch was 1 Gps.
Etherregen Switch is 1 GB and 100 Mb capable, however the Taiko Switch is only 1 GB capable

You could try ISP Modem > Taiko Switch > Etherregen > NS1

Or better still get an Extreme ;-)
 
Etherregen Switch is 1 GB and 100 Mb capable, however the Taiko Switch is only 1 GB capable

You could try ISP Modem > Taiko Switch > Etherregen > NS1

Or better still get an Extreme ;-)
Well that did it. Thanks. I wish there had been some info out there from EMM Labs...

I'm not really happy at the prospect of having to redo my entire streamer/connection/DAC thing to satisfy an ethernet switch, or having to run the Taiko Switch through an Etherregen.
 
Well that did it. Thanks. I wish there had been some info out there from EMM Labs...

I'm not really happy at the prospect of having to redo my entire streamer/connection/DAC thing to satisfy an ethernet switch, or having to run the Taiko Switch through an Etherregen.

Hi,

Looking at the photo you send to the support team your SFP+ module is not locked, the lever should be up and locked in place. Further to this it can be challenging to get Fiber to work, especially using SFP+ modules we have not tested with devices we have not tested. Is Auto-MDIX enabled on the other end? And lastly I actually strongly doubt the EMM Labs is 1Gb capable, it has leds on it's RJ45 connector though which should indicate link and/or data transfer.
 
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Can we get a quick status update on the router shipping targets?

I just received the following update:

Chrome finish routers ETA: 1.5 weeks
Black finish routers ETA: 2.5 weeks
Black finish switches ETA: 2 weeks

Chrome finish switches are currently in stock
 
A Taiko video of your listening room with all the new goodies playing something in XDMS-NSM would IMO help to increase the drool factor :)
This is complicated by the fact that at any time, several prototype products in several testing incarnations are all over the floor which would likely further add to the confusion and speculation, rather than providing clarity:)
 
My router is definitely above 100Mps. There are no network specs on the NS1 streamer, but it is compatible with the router. The odd thing is that neither device recognizes any type of device/connection to or from the Switch. I tried re-seating the adaptors. Hmm.

Would be nice to have an LED telling me it is working at all.
There is an LED inside the Switch that can be seen through the sides of the SFP connector. When a DAC cable is connected, the LED will light. This will at least indicate that the switch has power.

Switch LED Inside (circle).jpg

See also the below documents to determine the port status and network speed.
 

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Well that did it. Thanks. I wish there had been some info out there from EMM Labs...

I'm not really happy at the prospect of having to redo my entire streamer/connection/DAC thing to satisfy an ethernet switch, or having to run the Taiko Switch through an Etherregen.
I had a NS1 and EMM Labs is notorious for incomplete specs. Or NO specs...
 
Surprisingly, it seems to giving me some nice detail, holographic quality, and low noise despite being behind an Etherregen and having to divert my QSource and Sigma NR cable to the Etherregen (closest to the streamer). It does make a pretty good network moat, even if I'm losing something between there and my streamer.

I'm pretty attached to EMM Labs optical connection, and far over my audio budget this year, so I really wish there was a better work around. But I think there probably isn't it.
 
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I've had an audio bud bring his aurender over. It took 60 seconds to conclude the aurender is not in the same universe as the extreme. If the Mac with some unknown software can match the aurender, that is a low bar given where xdms is today.
Just to better understand, which model Aurender did your audio bud bring over?
 
I've had an audio bud bring his aurender over. It took 60 seconds to conclude the aurender is not in the same universe as the extreme. If the Mac with some unknown software can match the aurender, that is a low bar given where xdms is
I purchased the N30 when it was first released , I also had a Extreme at the same time and spent a great deal of time with both . I ended up selling the Extreme and keeping to N30 . There was a few others also that choose the N30 . About a month ago I purchased another Extreme and Switch card combo , I have to say Taiko came a long way with the Extreme I wasn't expecting to hear what I heard . The Extreme is a masterpiece and I can say today the N30 isn't even close to the performance of the Extreme, I'm glad I gave the Extreme another chance .
 
I purchased the N30 when it was first released , I also had a Extreme at the same time and spent a great deal of time with both . I ended up selling the Extreme and keeping to N30 . There was a few others also that choose the N30 . About a month ago I purchased another Extreme and Switch card combo , I have to say Taiko came a long way with the Extreme I wasn't expecting to hear what I heard . The Extreme is a masterpiece and I can say today the N30 isn't even close to the performance of the Extreme, I'm glad I gave the Extreme another chance .
That is great feedback! In the end there are many outstanding audio products these days and it‘s in the customer to chose which package suits her/him the most.
What‘s I think - besides the unique customer service - the greatest value in the Extreme is that it‘s a constantly improving platform. Or as Steve W likes to put it: You hop on the Taiko Train. With an Extreme you buy a piece in Emile‘s mastermind, passion for innovation and authentic music reproduction. That’s I feel the one thing that sets the Extreme apart from other offerings.
 
This is complicated by the fact that at any time, several prototype products in several testing incarnations are all over the floor which would likely further add to the confusion and speculation, rather than providing clarity:)

Yeah that’s a bit of an issue :)
 
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I have to say Taiko came a long way with the Extreme I wasn't expecting to hear what I heard . The Extreme is a masterpiece and I can say today the N30 isn't even close to the performance of the Extreme, I'm glad I gave the Extreme another chance .

the greatest value in the Extreme is that it‘s a constantly improving platform. Or as Steve W likes to put it: You hop on the Taiko Train.

I'm hooking into this as this is a good example of a changing environment affecting baseline performance. Our networking environments and usage have changed over the past 5 years since we designed and launched the Extreme. Back then network utilisation was a fraction of what it is today, we have much higher performance home networks and infrastructure, but also a rapidly increasing number of devices and applications creating activity, often even when not in use.

Network "tweaks" back then could give you a small performance boost, or introduce a small amount of colouration you might like, but in todays environment these tweaks and your home network setup have become mayorly influential, up to the point where they can even make or break your performance.

5 years ago the playing field was different to what it is today, and this affects your designs choices, in both hardware and software.

As everybody actively following this thread from the beginning knows, we started working on network solutions at around the start of 2020. It took 3 years to design and launch the switch, network card and router. Why this took so long is 1) the environment changing while we were designing, in a few occasions obsoleting certain design choices in about the same timeframe it takes to design something, and 2) gaining knowledge while designing, which is actually how we gain the most knowledge by changing parameters and listening to their effect as, especially 3 years ago, there was very little common knowledge already available on how network behaviour affects sound quality now, and perhaps even more important, how it may in the future. We went through 4 different switch designs for example, and then I'm not counting all the modifications we made to those designs before deciding to enter a redesign stage.

I deliberately mentioned the future in the previous paragraph as like the environment changed over the past years, I'm pretty certain it will change even more over the next few years. In a competitive electronic world, both in hardware and software, it may become a very realistic scenario where we are streaming 8K video and uncompressed high res audio, perhaps we'll even have 10Gb home networks, and of course even faster Wi-Fi. Hence we have tested our current designs in much more heavily utilised 10Gb networks running multiple heavy tasks, a stress test of sorts. This, perhaps unsurprisingly changes SQ performance again which we have hardened our currently launching solutions for as these are harder to upgrade and evolve in hardware with user installable cards, unlike the Extreme.

Circling back to the specifically mentioned Aurender N30SA, first of all, I actually admire Aurender for being a consistent performer, you could even call them pioneers in audio streaming. They early on developed their own music playback app to run on self designed dedicated hardware, with solid performance, basically they did everything right from the get go. This hardware platform, with (relatively) low processing power does not allow it to run Roon, however, though obviously lacking all the functionality Roon offers, in recent years this has actually been a strength from a SQ POV, not needing nearly as many adjustments to compensate for a changing (arguably evolving) software environment. This however has not been immune to the evolution of home networking like all other solutions, hence the launch of the N30SA which does a good job at addressing these changes. They "beat us to it" in this department, it simply us more time to launch our solution.

With the router we are launching our first, unique, designed from the ground up motherboard, with our perspective on how this should be designed, highly efficient, using Gallium Nitrate transistor based switching regulators at very high frequencies from which we get superior, lower noise, performance over "old fashioned" linear regulators powering digital circuits. Do note that this took considerable effort, we're now at the 8th incarnation of our GaN regulators and it took more then 4 years to reach these performance levels. Furthermore this motherboard integrates a "mil spec" hardened CPU, system memory, flash storage for the operating system, 2 M.2 PCIe slots, USB, and several configurable network links with recently added integrated Wi-Fi, while consuming only around 6 watts in total.

This motherboard, combined with our own software playback software, XDMS, could serve as a direct competitor to integrated devices, with a low support intensity, like Aurender. However if we are actually going to launch a product like this is very unsure for several reasons. First of all, this would be a streamer model which will just have to be replaced, like an Aurender or similar type of device, when technology moves forward. Of course software can be upgraded as it evolves, which it will, but you cannot supply user installable hardware upgrades while our current R&D drive is largely focused on that, and we have quite a few of these under development right now which would then be out of reach for customers having purchased this product, unless we subsequently keep launching new models. Although this could generate a lucrative revenue stream, this is in direct conflict on what we are trying to achieve with an evolving platform, attempting to minimize our customers expenditure for staying current. Nevertheless, perhaps there's a future for this kind of application, and we do now have the technology to do so. Should the router become obsolete for whatever reason, it could have a second life being a good streamer with just a software update. Anyway, for the foreseeable near future, we'll most likely just leave this market segment to others.

There is a reason I'm mentioning this bit, being the second reason, which is with everything we've learned over the years, with everything we tried, including designing this motherboard, we just cannot get the same comparable performance with low CPU power solutions as we can from high processing power CPUs, assuming comparable external environmental influences. That is not saying there's no place for them, but it's just not on our current path. Even when used as an endpoint, as a dual server setup, CPU power still matters, even on an endpoint.

Now there are several benefits to a dual server setup, and it has spawned another R&D effort on our part which I'll elaborate on in a follow up post.
 
I'm hooking into this as this is a good example of a changing environment affecting baseline performance. Our networking environments and usage have changed over the past 5 years since we designed and launched the Extreme. Back then network utilisation was a fraction of what it is today, we have much higher performance home networks and infrastructure, but also a rapidly increasing number of devices and applications creating activity, often even when not in use.

Network "tweaks" back then could give you a small performance boost, or introduce a small amount of colouration you might like, but in todays environment these tweaks and your home network setup have become mayorly influential, up to the point where they can even make or break your performance.

5 years ago the playing field was different to what it is today, and this affects your designs choices, in both hardware and software.

As everybody actively following this thread from the beginning knows, we started working on network solutions at around the start of 2020. It took 3 years to design and launch the switch, network card and router. Why this took so long is 1) the environment changing while we were designing, in a few occasions obsoleting certain design choices in about the same timeframe it takes to design something, and 2) gaining knowledge while designing, which is actually how we gain the most knowledge by changing parameters and listening to their effect as, especially 3 years ago, there was very little common knowledge already available on how network behaviour affects sound quality now, and perhaps even more important, how it may in the future. We went through 4 different switch designs for example, and then I'm not counting all the modifications we made to those designs before deciding to enter a redesign stage.

I deliberately mentioned the future in the previous paragraph as like the environment changed over the past years, I'm pretty certain it will change even more over the next few years. In a competitive electronic world, both in hardware and software, it may become a very realistic scenario where we are streaming 8K video and uncompressed high res audio, perhaps we'll even have 10Gb home networks, and of course even faster Wi-Fi. Hence we have tested our current designs in much more heavily utilised 10Gb networks running multiple heavy tasks, a stress test of sorts. This, perhaps unsurprisingly changes SQ performance again which we have hardened our currently launching solutions for as these are harder to upgrade and evolve in hardware with user installable cards, unlike the Extreme.

Circling back to the specifically mentioned Aurender N30SA, first of all, I actually admire Aurender for being a consistent performer, you could even call them pioneers in audio streaming. They early on developed their own music playback app to run on self designed dedicated hardware, with solid performance, basically they did everything right from the get go. This hardware platform, with (relatively) low processing power does not allow it to run Roon, however, though obviously lacking all the functionality Roon offers, in recent years this has actually been a strength from a SQ POV, not needing nearly as many adjustments to compensate for a changing (arguably evolving) software environment. This however has not been immune to the evolution of home networking like all other solutions, hence the launch of the N30SA which does a good job at addressing these changes. They "beat us to it" in this department, it simply us more time to launch our solution.

With the router we are launching our first, unique, designed from the ground up motherboard, with our perspective on how this should be designed, highly efficient, using Gallium Nitrate transistor based switching regulators at very high frequencies from which we get superior, lower noise, performance over "old fashioned" linear regulators powering digital circuits. Do note that this took considerable effort, we're now at the 8th incarnation of our GaN regulators and it took more then 4 years to reach these performance levels. Furthermore this motherboard integrates a "mil spec" hardened CPU, system memory, flash storage for the operating system, 2 M.2 PCIe slots, USB, and several configurable network links with recently added integrated Wi-Fi, while consuming only around 6 watts in total.

This motherboard, combined with our own software playback software, XDMS, could serve as a direct competitor to integrated devices, with a low support intensity, like Aurender. However if we are actually going to launch a product like this is very unsure for several reasons. First of all, this would be a streamer model which will just have to be replaced, like an Aurender or similar type of device, when technology moves forward. Of course software can be upgraded as it evolves, which it will, but you cannot supply user installable hardware upgrades while our current R&D drive is largely focused on that, and we have quite a few of these under development right now which would then be out of reach for customers having purchased this product, unless we subsequently keep launching new models. Although this could generate a lucrative revenue stream, this is in direct conflict on what we are trying to achieve with an evolving platform, attempting to minimize our customers expenditure for staying current. Nevertheless, perhaps there's a future for this kind of application, and we do now have the technology to do so. Should the router become obsolete for whatever reason, it could have a second life being a good streamer with just a software update. Anyway, for the foreseeable near future, we'll most likely just leave this market segment to others.

There is a reason I'm mentioning this bit, being the second reason, which is with everything we've learned over the years, with everything we tried, including designing this motherboard, we just cannot get the same comparable performance with low CPU power solutions as we can from high processing power CPUs, assuming comparable external environmental influences. That is not saying there's no place for them, but it's just not on our current path. Even when used as an endpoint, as a dual server setup, CPU power still matters, even on an endpoint.

Now there are several benefits to a dual server setup, and it has spawned another R&D effort on our part which I'll elaborate on in a follow up post.
are you suggesting we should all switch from cable to fiber ...fiber isn't even available yet by many let alone all ISP's here in the USA
 
Dual Extremes?

As some of you may recall this topic has been touched several years ago in this thread. Using 2 Extremes, one as the front-end, one as an endpoint. Back then there was no benefit to this setup, in fact this would produce slightly negative results. Today this has changed, but with a catch. This is directly related to my previous post #19,098.

5 years ago, the benefit of a dual server setup was largely dictated by a separation of processing environments. You would have a "busy" server running the front end music database, serving the user interface and handling I/O. The second server would be a "quiet" server only receiving a music stream over the network from the "busy" server and outputting this to your DAC over whatever interface you'd use. This "quiet" server could run a reduced set of services and/or a compacter Operating System.

One of the novelties of the Extreme design was using a single motherboard server with dual CPUs, creating 2 separated processing domains, taking the dual server setup to the next level by eliminating both the second server and the second Operating System while at the same time providing a superior interface, Intel Ultra Path Interconnect (UPI) with a software based network interface in stead of a hardware ethernet interface to transport music data from the front end server to the endpoint. That has evolved a bit more over time (mainly to adjust for the changing networking environment) but I'll not elaborate on that to keep a clean storyline. Bottom line, this was a vastly superior solution over a dual server setup.

Enter the changing network environment which has evolved to become a mayor player in playback performance. This has changed things, to the point where gradually a dual server setup gained additional benefits in "isolating" the second server from the network. Nowadays a dual Extreme with a software modification would significantly outperform a single Extreme. So why don't we advocate this and increase our server sales volume? The answer to that is probably quite obvious, because there's a smarter way to accomplish the same, which is adding an audio exclusive router to the Extreme. Not only does this perform better then dual Extremes, it is cheaper as well, and dare I add, better for the environment for those who care about wasting resources :)
 

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