The Dereneville Turntable Motor

[Derainer]

Dear friends,
We have gone a different way with our TT. We work with a special magnetic bearing that carries the whole weight
of the 25 kg platter.
Important to know - the magnetic field is completely isolated and does not affect the outside.
We can give a 300 year guarantee on this bearing, because there are no wearing parts.
This bearing has no temperature drift. It also does not require any special external techniques.

Thank you and take care.
Rainer

 

[Lagonda]

Dear friends,
We have gone a different way with our TT. We work with a special magnetic bearing that carries the whole weight
of the 25 kg platter.
Important to know - the magnetic field is completely isolated and does not affect the outside.
We can give a 300 year guarantee on this bearing, because there are no wearing parts.
This bearing has no temperature drift. It also does not require any special external techniques.

Thank you and take care.
Rainer

Cool ! i did not know you had a magnetic bearing in your TT, i will read up on it. Thank you Rainer !

 

[Derainer]

i did not know you had a magnetic bearing in your TT

But it should not be confused with the Maglev. It is completely different.

Thank you Rainer

 

[TooCool4]

i have finally mastered the art of changing records with the platter spinning,

I use to do that, till I dropped a record I love and damaged the last track on the record. I have since replaced the record twice, both the replacements do not sound as good as my original damaged one. So I have kept my damaged one and the best of the other two.

 

[Kcin]

I received back the motor from Rainer, yesterday.
the trial operation showed a huge improvement in terms of vibration and resonance management.
The motor run extremely smoothly and silently.
Due to very busy days I will probably install it on Sunday morning.

For the moment I can say that the controller’ s degree of precision, adjustability, functionality and convenience is second to none.
I have dealt with many motors’ controllers in the past and easily this is, by very far, the best. With confidence I would say that Rainer’s controller is a reference for the industry

Savas , It has been some time since this report on the Derenville motor. You have moved on to the Ront power supply variants in your testing for the Balance. Waiting for your conclusions there!

I am curious, you have had the Derenville vs. the Sinus for enough time to make some observations for the BB? Let us know if you are prepared to contrast the Sinus vs. the Derenville in this application.

Thanks,

 

[Vienna]

Dear Nick

the two motors have nothing in common and Brinkmann has long ago abandoned the Papst motors that Dereneville is still using because of their noisy nature.

Months ago I decided to get a Dereneville motor to try on my Balance. I did so because I wanted to see if I could have my BB sounding even better; and also because I thought that the speed adjusting buttons of the Dereneville would offer better functionality compared to the BB speed adjusting pots.

Exchanging some messages with the designer he had advised me on the software capabilities which sounded like a bonus.

I got very excited when I received the unit at my office and the greatest disappointment at home the moment I installed it.

It was very noisy and on my originally totally silent Brinkmann Balance, besides the audible from 3 m noise, I could measure resonances for the first time.
The manufacturer asked the unit back claiming that he made a mistake on assembly. He had sent me the following photos with the damping materials he had installed to correct the resonances and noise issues.




When I received back the unit was equally noisy with resonances. The designer advised me that he couldn’t do anything better than that, due to the fact that Papst motors are by nature noisy; and the only less noisy that he wanted to install at my unit, was accidentally broken.

Dereneville is using Hall Sensors to control this BLDC motor. There is nothing wrong with BLDC motors and they are great if they are frequency controlled, as Bill Carlin does With his motors and controllers on which he controls both voltage and the speed through frequency.

Using Hall sensors is the most basic way to control a BLDC motor; it is unsophisticated, but easy to do. The motor behaves just as a DC motor, with the amplitude of the square waves being switched on/off controlling the speed. Only 2 of the 3 windings are energized at any phase of the rotor and the square wave signal has limited rise time, so they appear more like trapezoids (which is why this is sometimes called trapezoidal commutation). Speed control is poor, unless you use a feedback mechanism, the designer was indenting to use one, but they aborted the effort after having seen the further negative effect on the sound (He wrote me this). Using Hall Sensors (like the Dereneville does), the controller does block commutation aka square waves. Block commutation also produces torque ripple and vibration.

@spiritofmusic has just got a Bill Carlin designed frequency controlled bldc motor and his sound is wonderful.

You can understand the negative effect on the Balance’s sound. Anyway I had to pay 4200 euro to see that Brinkmann 4 phase motor and his all-analogue controller is superior




p.s. I could disclose more details but we better leave it here.

 

[Kcin]

Wow, that is extensive and expensive experimentation for an unsatisfactory result. It really begs the question as to what is related on the sales pages vs. real user experience. So sorry for this .. I am grateful for your comments. You might of saved someone a lot of grief and money.

 

[Vienna]

Nick I have two independent labs’ (from USA and UK) reports on this but as I wrote we better leave this here.
I can send it to you for free if you like

 

[TooCool4]

I have to admit, I have a completely different experience. My motor is silent unless I am about 20cm from the unit in a silent room with no music playing. The sound is very low at that distance in a silent room, that for me it's a none issue.

Sounds like Vienna got very unlucky or maybe I got very lucky, not sure which.

In my case the new Derenville motor just transformed my Acoustic Solid and totally blows away the Acoustic Solids standard motor.
Sorry Vienna that your experience was not the same as mine.

 

[Maril555]

My Dereneville motor is silent as well. I use it with SpJ La Luce and the improvement over the original SpJ motor is HUGE.

 

[Vienna]

Unfortunately this was my case. When Rainer got back mine to install the damping materials he was supposed to replace the motor too with a silent one. He confessed later that he hadnt due to the fact that he had broken the new one accidentally.

 

[alexismaster]

I don't really think Rainer Horstmann Dereneville engines need my testimony in favor of their undisputed quality .. but I'm a little surprised to read about a single, less than positive experience.
I currently own about ten quality turntables of all kinds, and I enjoy pairing them with different platter..
Well .. Dereneville motors (I currently have two, one small and the big one Tribute) literally transform the sound of any turntable I've heard, even very expensive and big-name turntables.
Personally I consider them fundamental contributions to the quality of analogue sound and having experiences with turntables that are really important as cost and blazon, I think I have a certain authority in my judgment.
Recently a friend, one of the best electronics manufacturers on the market, asked me to let him try it ... immediately after listening to my system. Long story short. he wants it too ...

 

[Vienna]

I don't really think Rainer Horstmann Dereneville engines need my testimony in favor of their undisputed quality .. but I'm a little surprised to read about a single, less than positive experience.
I currently own about ten quality turntables of all kinds, and I enjoy pairing them with different platter..
Well .. Dereneville motors (I currently have two, one small and the big one Tribute) literally transform the sound of any turntable I've heard, even very expensive and big-name turntables.
Personally I consider them fundamental contributions to the quality of analogue sound and having experiences with turntables that are really important as cost and blazon, I think I have a certain authority in my judgment.
Recently a friend, one of the best electronics manufacturers on the market, asked me to let him try it ... immediately after listening to my system. Long story short. he wants it too ...

Well Alexismaster,

a serious manufacturer would either correct the issue or would refund the money paid.
He wouldn’t claim psychological issues (that’s right- believe It or not, this was the response I got) or accidentally broken motors.

but as I said earlier we better leave it here because many details shouldn’t be exposed

p.s. Unless you mean that because you happened to get two correct units, then it’s acceptable for someone else to get a noisy one.
p.s2. Even @ddk and many other members here, who have an unquestionable experience with THE REAL ICONIC TURNTABLES ( and not generic references to unspecific .... experiences with turntables that are really important as cost and blazon...)have never claimed any authority. Some humility would be an asset

 

[Derainer]

Quote:
serious manufacturer would either correct the issue or would refund the money paid.

This is a remarkable sentence but is not entirely true. Fact is the following:


I wrote to Savvas on the 23. November

It's up to you if you want to reverse part of the purchase. But please keep in mind
that it is an extensive and time-consuming custom-made product only for you.


Vienna = Savvas answered on the same day:

It’s not my intention to ask for money back and I will not,
I just proposed a way to reduce the noise by reducing the voltage after reaching the required rpm.


With this last answer I end my contributions in this topic.
Everyone may think what he wants.

I have given my best.

Goodbye to everyone
Rainer

 

[Vienna]

Quote:
serious manufacturer would either correct the issue or would refund the money paid.

This is a remarkable sentence but is not entirely true. Fact is the following:


I wrote to Savvas on the 23. November

It's up to you if you want to reverse part of the purchase. But please keep in mind
that it is an extensive and time-consuming custom-made product only for you.


Vienna = Savvas answered on the same day:

It’s not my intention to ask for money back and I will not,
I just proposed a way to reduce the noise by reducing the voltage after reaching the required rpm.


With this last answer I end my contributions in this topic.
Everyone may think what he wants.

I have given my best.

Goodbye to everyone
Rainer

Since you are quoting private messages Rainer let me advise you that you have omitted to write the fact that you have firstly used your depression (I can quote your messages if you like ) to avoid the full refund and counter propose a part refund.

Before asking any refund I had suggested some ways to reduce the noise. as I wrote you, after your statement that the motor couldnt not be rectified, I asked for a full refund, but you stop every communication; and instead you sent me a photo of yours drinking (I can publish the exact messages and not isolated parts )

 

[morricab]

Dear Nick

the two motors have nothing in common and Brinkmann has long ago abandoned the Papst motors that Dereneville is still using because of their noisy nature.

Months ago I decided to get a Dereneville motor to try on my Balance. I did so because I wanted to see if I could have my BB sounding even better; and also because I thought that the speed adjusting buttons of the Dereneville would offer better functionality compared to the BB speed adjusting pots.

Exchanging some messages with the designer he had advised me on the software capabilities which sounded like a bonus.

I got very excited when I received the unit at my office and the greatest disappointment at home the moment I installed it.

It was very noisy and on my originally totally silent Brinkmann Balance, besides the audible from 3 m noise, I could measure resonances for the first time.
The manufacturer asked the unit back claiming that he made a mistake on assembly. He had sent me the following photos with the damping materials he had installed to correct the resonances and noise issues.




When I received back the unit was equally noisy with resonances. The designer advised me that he couldn’t do anything better than that, due to the fact that Papst motors are by nature noisy; and the only less noisy that he wanted to install at my unit, was accidentally broken.

Dereneville is using Hall Sensors to control this BLDC motor. There is nothing wrong with BLDC motors and they are great if they are frequency controlled, as Bill Carlin does With his motors and controllers on which he controls both voltage and the speed through frequency.

Using Hall sensors is the most basic way to control a BLDC motor; it is unsophisticated, but easy to do. The motor behaves just as a DC motor, with the amplitude of the square waves being switched on/off controlling the speed. Only 2 of the 3 windings are energized at any phase of the rotor and the square wave signal has limited rise time, so they appear more like trapezoids (which is why this is sometimes called trapezoidal commutation). Speed control is poor, unless you use a feedback mechanism, the designer was indenting to use one, but they aborted the effort after having seen the further negative effect on the sound (He wrote me this). Using Hall Sensors (like the Dereneville does), the controller does block commutation aka square waves. Block commutation also produces torque ripple and vibration.

@spiritofmusic has just got a Bill Carlin designed frequency controlled bldc motor and his sound is wonderful.

You can understand the negative effect on the Balance’s sound. Anyway I had to pay 4200 euro to see that Brinkmann 4 phase motor and his all-analogue controller is superior




p.s. I could disclose more details but we better leave it here.

I guess the Sinus motor with the tube power supply is a really good upgrade! That is exactly the kind of motor that is in my Yamaha GT-2000 (although it is direct drive...and dead silent) and there is nothing like a coreless, brushless, slotless motor for zero cogging and silent running.

 

[Vienna]

I guess the Sinus motor with the tube power supply is a really good upgrade! That is exactly the kind of motor that is in my Yamaha GT-2000 (although it is direct drive...and dead silent) and there is nothing like a coreless, brushless, slotless motor for zero cogging and silent running.

This is a fact; and if you will consider that the Sinus motor is an all analogue drive, without any feedback or digital trapezoidal commutation or hall sensors, the offered speed accuracy and stability is very impressive
see below the two videos (one made yesterday and the other some months ago)

 

[morricab]

This is a fact; and if you will consider that the Sinus motor is an all analogue drive, without any feedback or digital trapezoidal commutation or hall sensors, the offered speed accuracy and stability is very impressive
see below the two videos (one made yesterday and the other some months ago)

How are you measuring the speed?

 

[Vienna]

How are you measuring the speed?

With many ways including stobe light, test records and this https://sotaturntables.com/products/eclipse-roadrunner/

 

[microstrip]

I guess the Sinus motor with the tube power supply is a really good upgrade! That is exactly the kind of motor that is in my Yamaha GT-2000 (although it is direct drive...and dead silent) and there is nothing like a coreless, brushless, slotless motor for zero cogging and silent running.

Do you have torque measurements of the Sinus motor? To be honest I can't stop asking questions about a turntable motor than needs a tube power supply and the designer does not explain why. Four phase sinus is nothing new - I worked with a precision Bergerlhar five phase sinus motor (US patent 38666104 ) motor in the 90's. It was really smooth.

I do not have faith in techniques and marketing - I rely on facts. BTW, stability of a properly designed turntable synchronous motors with no feedback only depend on factors such as belt slippage - the motor speed is always the same. The TechDas AF1 has an interesting system - it tunes the motor speed for exact 33.33 with a servo at startup, than switches it off and locks the motor speed during playback until it starts again.

And surely, what matters most is our subjective opinion.