The magic of stereo

Hi Bob
In a good stereo system, the image can be moved front and back as you turn the volume control, It should show you not only sound louder or less but also let you feel close to the image or they go far from you
cheers
tony ma

Thanks Tony for the reply; that is exactly what I thought! :) ...And I believe it is a good test for checking speakers out. The ones that can image nicely behind are usually pretty good in front.

* I'm talking about your two front main Stereo speakers, and then you walk behind them.
{Mine are five feet from the front wall.}
 
before sending your innocent signal into the big distortions of passive crossovers and multiple transducers
Gee, was that an echo I just heard? From a few days ago? Perhaps, weeks bye ...? Noooo, can't be !! :D:D

At the risk of boring everyone to tears, the "illusion" doesn't happen when the system is not up to scratch, it just sounds like a normal, relatively mediocre (to me) setup, like lots out there. If I go on with the details, I'm just repeating myself.

More interesting, Gary started a thread just before Christmas, asking for more info about the working of the ear. Unfortunately, it rapidly got derailed, and very little was learnt. But the question was very relevant, and I, for one, would like to know more. My most recent thoughts on this is that we need to exploit, or realise, the ear/brain's natural ability to compress sound when it gets louder: this automatically happens, otherwise players in an orchestra would go mad. When my setup is working correctly this same phenomenon occurs: if I am 40 feet it will sound "big", and as I get closer it doesn't get louder, it just feels more intense, more enveloping, even when I am inches away. This is exactly what happens when you approach a group of real musicians: it always sounds "big" no matter how far you are from them. If you go in the middle of them you wouldn't use the word loud, rather that you are immersed in a bath or waves of sound. This is the ear/brain's compression mechanism at work ...

Frank
 
Thanks Tony for the reply; that is exactly what I thought! :) ...And I believe it is a good test for checking speakers out. The ones that can image nicely behind are usually pretty good in front.

* I'm talking about your two front main Stereo speakers, and then you walk behind them.
{Mine are five feet from the front wall.}

In my system, 4 way horn, there are no image behind the front two horns ( mid high and mid low), 3 feet behind them are the super high and sub, they close to wall. if I stand in between, I can hear the high like noise and the very low sub only, but they don't give critical position for listening, I can sit and stand, left or right, the image still in the same position
tony ma
 
In my system, 4 way horn, there are no image behind the front two horns ( mid high and mid low), 3 feet behind them are the super high and sub, they close to wall. if I stand in between, I can hear the high like noise and the very low sub only, but they don't give critical position for listening, I can sit and stand, left or right, the image still in the same position
tony ma

Good thing you mentioned about your particular speakers.
That's right, there are many type of loudspeakers out there, and you have the bipolar and dipolar and omnipolar type.
Mine are the direct radiating type in normal rectangle boxes, with good off-axis dispersion from their tweeter drivers.

* The shape of the loudspeaker will also determine its 'magic stereo' effect; and some speakers are box-free, no real enclosure! Or very minimal, like in sphere shape (Anthony Gallo Acoustics...), or free floating drivers (Vandersteen...) or electrostatics (many...).

** I thought of designing louspeaker enclosures before having the shape of musical instruments! Like a piano, an acoustic guitar, a violin, a contrebasse, a cello,
a trumpet (horns, Avant Garde, ...), a saxophone (B&W Nautilus), etc.
 
Good thing you mentioned about your particular speakers.
That's right, there are many type of loudspeakers out there, and you have the bipolar and dipolar and omnipolar type.
Mine are the direct radiating type in normal rectangle boxes, with good off-axis dispersion from their tweeter drivers.

* The shape of the loudspeaker will also determine its 'magic stereo' effect; and some speakers are box-free, no real enclosure! Or very minimal, like in sphere shape (Anthony Gallo Acoustics...), or free floating drivers (Vandersteen...) or electrostatics (many...).

** I thought of designing louspeaker enclosures before having the shape of musical instruments! Like a piano, an acoustic guitar, a violin, a contrebasse, a cello, a trumpet (horns, Avant Garde, ...), a saxophone (B&W Nautilus), etc.

100% agree, I started a thread in here talking about one type of repro system ( speaker and amp) can't be good for all kind of music !
 
Gee, was that an echo I just heard? From a few days ago? Perhaps, weeks bye ...? Noooo, can't be !!

Sorry to repeat myself, Frank, but you called me out by name and drew me into the same old conversation. And the questions haven't changed. And I still haven't heard an answer.

Tim
 
you would be saying that tweaking switches and pots to remove insignificant distortions had suddenly enabled your drivers to have perfectly even off axis frequency response. Which is, of course, preposterous. This beautiful illusion is not in the reduction of small distortions. It is in your imagination.

The answers are:

* The distortions are not insignificant
* The speakers FR do not change. As an aside, the FR is almost completely irrelevant
* The illusion IS in the reduction of small distortions
* If it is only in my imagination why can other people around me hear it?

EXTRA: There is a good engineering maxim: the devil is in the details. Wise people, these engineers ...:)

You still haven't tasted that really good red, I'm afraid ...

Frank
 
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Certainly you feel like you can point to where you hear an instrument but if you move forward the image collapses. Nothing great about that illusion. My main issue with plain old stereo is the lack of energy anywhere in the inside image. I have heard this same lack in all kinds of stereo setups. The phantom images are seriously phantom!
Tom, that collapsing of the image shows that the illusion needs to be strengthened, as we discussed before. You should be able to move forward all the way and the image remain. Unfortunately, this is where "the devil is in the details" aspect comes in ...

Mark suggested buying better gear: this is where you might get lucky ("Punk, are you feeling ..." :D) and substantially improve the strength of your phantom. Most times, I suspect, it will only be a sideways move in this regard ...

Frank
 
It's rather a given that a phantom image will collapse the same way a visual one will at too close a distance. We see in stereo too. Are we not going a bit overboard by wanting to enjoy the stereo effect from everywhere including places we venture into only for curiosity and not practical use? :)

I agree with Tom in the sense that there is a lack of "energy" with any phantom image especially in a direct comparison with a mono recording from a single speaker aimed squarely at you. While I agree with this, multichannel has its own problems. Setting aside the need to process two channel sound and the infinite things that can go wrong in implementation, physically the typical multi-channel system is configured with a handicapped center channel. This leads to its own imbalances in SPL with the L and R at different frequencies. We also now get two phantom images instead of one between L and C and C and R. Gains in "energy" can come at the cost of coherence if implemented poorly. Something I think we are all familiar with with HTIBs haphazardly set up in most homes.

As far as two channel goes there are so many ways to skin the cat, it can be a nightmare if one doesn't know exactly what one considers their personal objectives to be, "presentation" being a common one amongst audio enthusiasts. On one extreme we have the purely direct sound camp typically using constant directivity or near field listening, and on the other extreme, the disappearing speaker camp typically midfield with loudspeakers with flatter off axis response. Curiously, one could look at the FR or Spectral displays of a song or album and get pretty close averaged measured response using an RTA with either approach. That it will typically cost more with the latter due to the higher dependency on the room itself to achieve the response I guess is to be expected but should not bear in anyway on the approach's validity.

Mr. Danley makes some very, very logical observations with regards to polar patterns not just on a channel per channel basis but even driver by driver one. If one were to listen and measure two systems with similar FR, one with a small neat stage and the other a spector like wall of sound, the measurements would say they sound similar but would not account for the obvious differences in presentation even if similar in tonal balance. Measure not from the listening position but let's say 6ft up, 3 ft left of center at the speaker plane,where there's little localization with the "neat" system and a fair amount of energy from the "wall of sound" system and there you will almost surely find one big contributor to the differences in image size and intensity....the summing of the loudspeakers as dictated by their dispersion patterns as aided by boundary reinforcement.

To be able to manipulate the phantom image we have to know what it is made of. It's not magic. It's air molecules at varying levels of excitation in a given space at a given time. It's invisible to the eye, but it is definitely there. It is PHYSICALLY there. From there we work our way back to how to excite them exactly the way we want to and to do that we need to take into account both electrical and kinetic influences. Hopefully someone actually interested to study the matter in detail, will actually plot all of this out to a point including modeling how air molecules will react when acted upon by the two original impulses as well as multiple generations of reflected energy from the same. Until then we work with what we have...............
 
Sorry to jump in the flow of the pros, but I have a quick and simple question to ask. :)

* What is the very BEST 'MAGIC STEREO' CD version of "Dark Side Of The Moon" by Pink Floyd?
Some Japanese remastered versions? MFSL version? Better than the SACD version?
About the DVD-Audio version?
This is very important to me.

Thank you.
 
Sorry to jump in the flow of the pros, but I have a quick and simple question to ask. :)

* What is the very BEST 'MAGIC STEREO' CD version of "Dark Side Of The Moon" by Pink Floyd?
Some Japanese remastered versions? MFSL version? Better than the SACD version?
About the DVD-Audio version?
This is very important to me.

Thank you.

I can not help about the CD version, but IMHO the very best LP version is the Japanese EMI Toshiba professional version - I compared it with the MFSL and preferred it.

BTW, it is one the few recordings that can be analyzed scientifically - you just count the number of clocks of track TIME and get a number. You can consider that the best is the version with the higher score. :)

I am sure there are many possible explanations, but Pink Floyd CDs usually sound less good (magic... :eek: ) than the LPs. Perhaps the master tapes were engineered to complement the vinyl limitations.
 
Are you into SACDs at all? ...CDs? ...Japanese XRCDII24?

* That's why it is very important as this is the most popular album that has ever been analysed over and over...
I would love to know about the CDs remastering from all around as there are several versions.
I got two CD versions and the SACD as well plus two LP versions. I like my original EMI LP version, but I like the SACD as well.
Now The Japanese EMI Toshiba Pro version on the LP I trust you, but I want to make sure that it is indeed the ultimate "Magic Stereo" one.

I will count 24 to 48 hours and see if someone else can come up with a better choice.
If not you'll end up the winner! :)

Thank you Microstrip from Portugal,
 
DSOTM on CD - I think that the best is the Toshiba "Black Triangle" - this was made at the same time that the EMI Pro LP was made, and came from the same master tape.

It's a pity that the DVD-A isn't stereo (it's 4.1) and I can't rip the SACD.

For me, the ultimate "magic" on CD is the Q-sound Roger Waters Amused to Death. The best CD of this is the "long box" MasterSound.
 
For me, the ultimate "magic" on CD is the Q-sound Roger Waters Amused to Death. The best CD of this is the "long box" MasterSound.

Gary, I completely agree. When that dog starts barking at the beginning of Track 1 I have to look outside to see where it is coming from or several tracks later when you hear the galloping horses going from the left side wall through the front and then along the right side wall is indeed magic thanks to Q-sound in which the album was recorded.
 
Probably some of the best recordings I've heard are the 3-track Nat King Cole and Miles Davis recordings. You definitely don't have a "collapsing phatom" center!
 
Wow

I have the Gold Version that I bought new for $18.99

Wow!! That's a great buy. On eBay, new is $700
http://cgi.ebay.com/Waters-Roger-Am...s=63&clkid=7109723177890450149#ht_3151wt_1139

and even used it's expensive:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mastersound-24K...&ps=63&clkid=7109701325025890472#ht_500wt_922

The LP's also around $700.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROGER-WATERS-AM...=UK_Records&hash=item2eb3445e63#ht_568wt_1139

The second issue, and the red vinyl is far cheaper, but still $$.
 

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