The necessity for absolute tt speed control

[Lagonda]

For my middle level rig I am using a Polish Muarah Speed Controller with InteliClamp .
It solved the issues with sound fluctuations of bad pressings and not enough accuracy of Transrotor Reference controller.
The producer claim output frequency stability < +/-0.00005%.
Not very expensive.

Accessories

muarah.pl

Looks interesting, a Polish product similar to the discontinued 5 W Phoenix Engineering Falcon controller. The Falcon needed a RoadRunner to do the same task. Still have most of mine in a draw, had to cannibalize parts of it to assemble my current controller

 

[tima]

Marketing is a wonderful thing I believe it afterTang or Jürgen write us a comprehensive review and agree.

Agree on marketing? You're asking a lot.

 

[marslo]

I have not heard of them until now, but fascinating approach with radio signal transmission from table to controller:

View attachment 75870

I gather the clamp uses a gyroscope to measure angular velocity.
That output frequency stability measurement you cite is taken at the controller?

I am not an engineer so I need help getting my simple newtonian mind around technology. I thought this page on 'How a Gyro Works' was interesting and understandable:

​

To be honest I am not technician either.
I have met the owners of Muarah , young nice people during AVS in Warsaw.
I told them about my Transrotor and some speed issues . They proposed to send them my motor and Transrotor Controller.
After one month or so the Transrotor version of speed controller was ready and ever since I use it in my analog rig.
I replace the battery every 4-5 month or so, analog is my weekend source.
My Cartesian mind tels me that if it works it means that they are right in their approach.
Patent pending btw.

 

[tima]

My Cartesian mind tels me that if it works it means that they are right in their approach.

Descartes' scepticism was the cause of his certainty.

 

[marmota]

Marketing is a wonderful thing I believe it afterTang or Jürgen write us a comprehensive review and agree.

Marketing is wonderful, no doubt
Synergy is quite a powerful entity, ask Tang if you want. The AS-2000 turntable is built around the SME 3012R tonearm, and intended as "one" with it. SME 3012R, if I remember correctly, sounded as good or better than the 30x costlier SAT tonearm in that turntable according to Tang (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Here we have a turntable that costs less than 15k eur, but has the option of custom tonearms, intended as "one" with the turntable and your cartridge. That's quite a nice package, hard to go wrong with that approach, IMO.
PS: if anything, Primary Control's marketing is quite average and, IMO, far from perfect, I had to open that thread two years ago to get more in depth info about the turntable

 

[Lagonda]

Marketing is wonderful, no doubt
Synergy is quite a powerful entity, ask Tang if you want. The AS-2000 turntable is built around the SME 3012R tonearm, and intended as "one" with it. SME 3012R, if I remember correctly, sounded as good or better than the 30x costlier SAT tonearm in that turntable according to Tang (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Here we have a turntable that costs less than 15k eur, but has the option of custom tonearms, intended as "one" with the turntable and your cartridge. That's quite a nice package, hard to go wrong with that approach, IMO.
PS: if anything, Primary Control's marketing is quite average and, IMO, far from perfect, I had to open that thread two years ago to get more in depth info about the turntable

I am not sure the AS 2000 was built around the SME 3012R arm, David probably used a variety of arm when he designed it, he just prefers the sound of the 3012R on most turntables in general. The Kinea looks price wise like a good deal, but there seems to be little information in general or on it's real world performance available, as you have noted, you have not heard it yourself either. The little i could find is not very technical, and claims of" variable torque settings" could be a fancy way of saying that the voltage gets lowered after startup or as a separate setting, something that a lot of controllers can be set for, including my own. I would love to hear it myself, or have the feedback from someone not involved with it's marketing. Their homepage does say that they work together with Wolf Von Langa and Vinylsavior

 

[Solypsa]

I am not sure the AS 2000 was built around the SME 3012R arm, David probably used a variety of arm when he designed it, he just prefers the sound of the 3012R on most turntables in general. The Kinea looks price wise like a good deal, but there seems to be little information in general or it's real world performance available, as you have note, you have not heard it yourself either. The little i could find is not very technical, and claims of" variable torque settings" could be a fancy way of saying that the voltage gets lowered after startup or as a separate setting, something that a lot of controller can be set for, including my own. I would love to hear it myself, or have the feedback from someone not involved with it's marketing. Their homepage does say that they work together with Wolf Von Langa and Vinylsavior

As I mentioned before I visited Bernd at his workshop a few years ago. Very nice man and a lovely table. I forget the details on controller implementation. I do recall the user-variable torque adjustment making VERY subtle changes. The system on that day was with a Lyra Atlas and his own Gravity tonearm.

 

[ddk]

Marketing is wonderful, no doubt
Synergy is quite a powerful entity, ask Tang if you want. The AS-2000 turntable is built around the SME 3012R tonearm, and intended as "one" with it. SME 3012R, if I remember correctly, sounded as good or better than the 30x costlier SAT tonearm in that turntable according to Tang (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Here we have a turntable that costs less than 15k eur, but has the option of custom tonearms, intended as "one" with the turntable and your cartridge. That's quite a nice package, hard to go wrong with that approach, IMO.
PS: if anything, Primary Control's marketing is quite average and, IMO, far from perfect, I had to open that thread two years ago to get more in depth info about the turntable

AS 2000 wasn't designed around any tonearm, the goal was absolute neutrality, nothing added, nothing omitted and nothing changed, only what's in the grooves and retrieving it all. At this money no object league people can afford any tonearm they want and the combination will sound excellent with any of the better ones, the only reason people including Tang opted for the 3012-R is because it's a superior tonearm.

There are record players developed as a system with their own tonearms but IME when end users talk about synergy in this context, they're compensating the coloration or shortcomings of one with character of the other, this is the last thing I would want in any turntable no less the AS 2000.

david

 

[ack]

And this brings me to a dilemma. A competent US engineer who makes his own line of amps and phonos, and who runs my tt (with Clearaudio Goldfinger cart, no less), is proposing a bespoke tt speed controller that will beef up the stock unit, and he promises way better than 0.3% accuracy.

Marc, FWIW, I've always been a firm believer that very high speed accuracy is of tremendous importance. So just the other I replaced my older VPI SDS controller with a newer unit (VPI no longer makes this product), and went from +2‰ -12‰ to +-2‰ and timbre is off the charts, with improved hall ambience and size of the bass drum. I am now in pursuit of a stellar AC-sync control unit, with no feedback, by any manufacturer that will go beyond that.

 

[tima]

Marc, FWIW, I've always been a firm believer that very high speed accuracy is of tremendous importance. So just the other I replaced my older VPI SDS controller with a newer unit (VPI no longer makes this product), and went from +2‰ -12‰ to +-2‰ and timbre is off the charts, with improved hall ambience and size of the bass drum. I am now in pursuit of a stellar AC-sync control unit, with no feedback, by any manufacturer that will go beyond that.

Does that new VPI controller work by power regeneration?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc, FWIW, I've always been a firm believer that very high speed accuracy is of tremendous importance. So just the other I replaced my older VPI SDS controller with a newer unit (VPI no longer makes this product), and went from +2‰ -12‰ to +-2‰ and timbre is off the charts, with improved hall ambience and size of the bass drum. I am now in pursuit of a stellar AC-sync control unit, with no feedback, by any manufacturer that will go beyond that.

Ack, I'm getting all that too, despite never (seemingly) experiencing SQ changes over periods as my speed swung from slow> correct > fast > correct > slow.
It only became apparent once speed was accurate over protracted periods.
But I also know my new SOTA motor is likely a "better" motor than my stock one in areas other than just speed concerns, so it's not a simple comparison based on speed accuracy alone.
For a start, it the SOTA rim wheel pod deffo produces less vibrations (chassis feels totally inert, unlike my stock pod), sits on a 16mm thick Symposium Svelte pad as opposed to 7mm thick for my stock, the SOTA pod runs a pinion rim wheel twice the size of my stock wheel, and the SOTA motor utilises a better LPS than my previous AC psu.

 

[tima]

For a start, it the SOTA rim wheel pod deffo produces less vibrations (chassis feels totally inert, unlike my stock pod), sits on a 16mm thick Symposium Svelte pad as opposed to 7mm thick for my stock, the SOTA pod runs a pinion rim wheel twice the size of my stock wheel, and the SOTA motor utilises a better LPS than my previous AC psu.

For grins, try putting a stethoscope on various parts. Can also be used for before/after.

 

[Mosin]

This is why the Yamaha GT-2000 (1982...perhaps Win was inspired by this platter?) has an oversized platter where they made the platter such that it has extra mass at the very outside of the platter to increase inertia.
View attachment 75784

Absolutely not. The mass is in the exact wrong place. It should be in the center, so there is no overshoot. That platter will smear nuances of the music.

 

[morricab]

Absolutely not. The mass is in the exact wrong place. It should be in the center, so there is no overshoot. That platter will smear nuances of the music.

Overshoot only occurs in TTS with some kind of active speed correction. So, the question of where the mass is located is a different issue. What you can be sure of though is that a higher mass platter will resist speed change due to inertia. You agree that a platter with its mass at the edges will have greater inertia (due to the much higher angular velocity at the edge than in the middle. than one with the mass at the center. P=mV)? This is basic physics.

So, if we agree that higher inertia resists speed change better than a low inertia (again basic physics) it is clear that a platter with a given mass of X will have a higher rotational inertia If the weight is located on the outside of the platter , where the angular velocity is the highest. It will therefore give a more stable velocity that is MORE resistant to over and undershoot than one with most of the mass in the center where the angular velocity, and therefore inertia is relatively low.
I think the Japanese mechanical engineers at Yamaha knew their basic physics quite well and exploited this well known principle in a way few others designing TTs have done. By having a high inertia, they relieved the need (and the problems associated with such regulation) to have a very tight speed regulation, which could result in over/undershoot

If you think there is a good physics argument for why you believe that the basic physics here don’t apply I would like to hear them. Not sure where you get that a high inertia will smear the nuances of the music. If that is true then all high mass TTs will suffer a similar fate.

 

[ddk]

Absolutely not. The mass is in the exact wrong place. It should be in the center, so there is no overshoot. That platter will smear nuances of the music.

Hard to tell how much of the smearing you get with DDs is caused by the feedback and how much caused by the platter.

david

 

[morricab]

Hard to tell how much of the smearing you get with DDs is caused by the feedback and how much caused by the platter.

david

If high inertia smears the sound, David , then your American Sound TT would be one of the worst...so I am not sure why you would agree with Mosin’s proposition.

 

[tima]

If high inertia smears the sound, David , then your American Sound TT would be one of the worst...so I am not sure why you would agree with Mosin’s proposition.

Did he?

 

[XV-1]

Only thing I know is that my old school Jap DD sound better speed wise vs any belt drive I have owned or heard.

DDK, more than happy for you to send me a as2000 to convert me

 

[ddk]

If high inertia smears the sound, David , then your American Sound TT would be one of the worst...so I am not sure why you would agree with Mosin’s proposition.

You missed the bit regarding overall design and specific related issue not inertia per se. Mosin setting the record straight regarding his Saskia.

david

 

[ddk]

Only thing I know is that my old school Jap DD sound better speed wise vs any belt drive I have owned or heard.

DDK, more than happy for you to send me a as2000 to convert me

You have a point, never said that everything else is perfect! There are the generic shortcomings of drive methods some overcome them better than others.
david