The Path to Paradise . . . or the Road to Ruin?

Alex, here's the thing of it...I personally believe that no electrostatic can come close to a great dynamic driver when it comes time to reproduce dynamics. I have owned several 'stats' in the past...when you get away from them, only then do you really realize what it is that you have been missing. Dynamics are such a BIG part of music that when you again hear what dynamics bring to to the presentation, you wonder how you could have lived without!!.
Midrange transparency used to be superior in the 'stats', that's not really so true anymore. I believe the current crop of great dynamic speakers can equal...and in some cases even surpass 'stats' in midrange transparency.
The YG's.. and a lot of other great dynamic speakers, are IMHO far superior to any 'stat' I have heard. Including the new ML Neolith...which frankly I feel is easily bested by any number of great conventional speakers. My 2 cents and all that:D

For the longest time in my long audiophile life :), i liked panels. I believe they did things that were unique. For the past 10 years or so , it could be more, I have heard l "cone" speakers do a lot better in most categories. From down low where cones were always the best to highs where dome tweeters are competitive but IMO lack the last level of resolution ribbons offer .. There areas where a given technology continues to prevail but as whole the speakers systems that are cone-based (and hybrid) have gotten to point where as a category they dominate in term of performance. Of course there are a few panels that stand up tot hem or for a given person is a superior transducer. The Gen 1.x stand head and shoulders above most speakers again IMHO, It should be reminded that the radiation pattern of most dipole speakers seems to create difficult-to-deal-with (but often addictive) artefacts. Cones are easier to integrate. Panels can no longer boast outright superiority as in the past..

For bass down 100 Hz there is IMHO no substitute for displacement and there it is cone by a landslide. I could go as high as 200 Hz but let's not throw gasoline on the fire :)... IN the mids cone can be as good as any stats you have ever heard once prejudices are put tot the side ...Up highs it seems speaker designers are doing a great job of integration, I have heard some wonderful dome tweeters although up there ribbons and ionic remain kings. these used to be a whole issue to integrate but it has worked well in VS speakers for example and I have no doubt that the EVO Acoustics speakers are doing a great job in that area. It does remain however that in term of scale and by that I mean proper scale .... It seems the best results is in hybrid a term we don't use when considering speakers like the Gen1.1 or the VS 9, 11, the EVO MM3 and MM7 and many other speakers because that is what they are:hybrids... and they occupy IME the upper register in term of being able to do more with less trade-offs .. They often come at a price ..

Panels , interestingly enough continue to provide the best bang for the bucks. It is for example difficult to match the MG 3.7, yes the lowly 3.7 at $6,000, in most areas that matter to music reproduction... The MG 20.7 would teach megabucks speakers a few tricks. I have heard the same great things about the various Apogee-like or Apogee-inspired speakers. On top of that with the new tools available to audiophiles. namely DSP and DRC it has become more than possible to erase the issue of mating cone to panels. OF course the audiophile will always believe in some myths and color its perception with the myth but it has become eminently feasible, now and more than ever in the history of sound reproduction, to mate and transparently mesh cone with a panel of whatever nature .. The transition can be be completely invisible, inaudible and imperceptible and that at a more than decent price , a decidedly non-audiophile kind of price with things like Acourate costing less than $1000 , a good mic <$250 and free tools like REW ... Combining the inherent advantages of cones in the lows with the known advantages of panels up there and that at a reasonable cost (in audiophile terms). This does take time, a lot of time and an open mind but it is more than doable and the results so great. I am surprised more audiophiles have not at least tried that ...

A mega speaker is always an interesting solution if one can afford it. They require a lot of care and the room is always an issue, especially with those speakers capable of more .. within the entire audible spectrum and beyond. Electronics also must be carefully matched. I tend to go for the more bang for the buck though .. This is just me ... I believe a combination of speakers with serious subs, DSP and DRC can more than match those uber-speakers. maybe get to 90% percent of these at 1/4 of their prices. it is a matter of philosophy and hard work but it can be done.

To conclude as I was digressing some :) :

It does take a while to fully grasp what the new cone are doing better but if accurate reproduction and by that I mean a system able to deliver most of what is in the medium without imposing their own sound , I would say that non-flat panels have arrived in a glorious fashion.
 
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Frantz, an Apogee full range will have much better bass and slam than a cone. You might get more pinpoint on the dime bass hit with a cone, but the bass waves from Mahler will be felt much more from a magnet panel like Apogees, 7 feet tall, wide, coming down the room at you. Never heard any of the big cones come close.
 
bonzo

This discussion belongs to a different thread but allow me to just say this. Bass is a matter of linear displacement and room integration. I am very much in favor of multiple subs mated with whatever mains is available. By multiple i mean more than 2. It is tricky to make these work but the best bass I have heard always came from systems with multiple subs. I don't see how eight Seaton Submersive (for exemple) subwoofers (that is less than $30K for superlative/supreme low frequency reproduction BTW) in a room will not provide more potent bass waves from Mahler or Jay-Z :)D) than any panel you want to come up with
In my philosophy of sound reproduction I will always use subwoofer with any speaker save (maybe? :) ) for things like the Gen 1.x , MM7 and perhaps the VR11 or similar many towers speakers. To me it is always better to have separate very low frequencies transducer (<100 Hz). You can place them where they reproduce the smoothest bass and the mains where they reproduce the rest of the spectrum and the laundry list of audiophiles desiderata (imaging, integration, soundstaging,e tc) better. I would say that in 99.99999% of rooms, the position that is best for smooth bass and the position for all the rest of the laundry list do not coincide. We have been led to accept the trade-offs. We no longer have to. DSP is the key to that. And keep in mind you don;t have to use DSP/DRC in the rest of the register ...
 
Yes, if we put seaton subs like that I agree with you, but then discussion of what the main speaker is becomes irrelevant.

You can mate subs, either cone subs, bass horns, or panel bass (analysis Orion) to supplement the main speaker
 
Frantz, an Apogee full range will have much better bass and slam than a cone. You might get more pinpoint on the dime bass hit with a cone, but the bass waves from Mahler will be felt much more from a magnet panel like Apogees, 7 feet tall, wide, coming down the room at you. Never heard any of the big cones come close.
Sound is minute variations in air pressure , it has frequency and amplitude.
The waves you are hearing are probably the reflected rear energy from the dipole.
Keith.
 
Yes, if we put seaton subs like that I agree with you, but then discussion of what the main speaker is becomes irrelevant.

You can mate subs, either cone subs, bass horns, or panel bass (analysis Orion) to supplement the main speaker

Well not entirely. There is the very important issue of power compression. Many heralded speakers suffer from that. They can't reproduce loud in clean or linear fashion. The uber speakers I have heard do not seem to have that problem. it is not a matter of playing loud it is matter of being able to play loud linearly, cleanly. to follow the signal faithfully and without any delay or lack of linearity in the reproduction.
I do believe that is one area that have horn standing out. Because of the way they couple the transducers to the air/ear interface they suffer less from power compression and lack of linearity. horns tend to be associated with flea-power amplifiers such as single digit wattage SET or similar.. I have heard horns with some high power amplifiers and the experience was magical. And since we are discussing uber system here if one is going horn I would like to see some serious wattages SET (>100Watts/ch) in a >100dB sensitive speaker ... I do not believe SET should ever be used in the lows .. Again that is just me ...
 
I have never heard a dynamic speaker sound anywhere as real as a stat.They are also much slower than a stat, a stat is so light and fast, a dynamic speaker is much slower by comparison.

As for non.stat panels, an Apogee will make any dynamic speaker pale on bass and dynamism. The word dynamic in dynamic speakers is misleading, because there are horns, there are panels, and then, somewhere far down, are the slowest drivers requiring the largest distance to move, the dynamic speakers, which charge silly money for a lot of cabinet material that will always leave you looking outside in at the music. The more the cabinet, the more the price and the less the SQ
Ked read up on what sound actually is,
Keith.
 
Andre,

Thanks for the write up! It seems YG plans to show people that something was amiss at JA's, since they're going to show at CES with PrimaLuna+Carmel 2.

The MM3s weren't easy to set up, and I was messing with it for two days. I still think the rake angle was a bit off (due to my rough/uneven flooring), but adjusting the spikes on these behemoths are kinda tricky, and definitely a three-man job.

But as Kevin/Evolution showed at their room this year @ Newport, once they're dialed in, and matched with the right components, they'll sing beautifully :)


cheers,
alex

alex, I as I noted, I am quite surprised that Yoav did not write a Manufcaturer's Response to the SPhile review.
But I guess, letting folks hear the speaker for themselves is the best course of action.

I thought you did a fine job setting up the room, although clearly you are aware of nuances of the mighty MM3's particulars that
i am not aware of. That being said, I noticed no imbalance, anything out of place sonically, etc.
 
Yes, I listen to Adele...and a lot of other music as well...because to me all music is good. Too bad you cannot say the same thing.:(

Davey, the post you are responding to says a lot about a poster. It is well known that in this hobby the lowest road you can take is
insulting someone's taste in music.
 
Davey, the post you are responding to says a lot about a poster. It is well known that in this hobby the lowest road you can take is
insulting someone's taste in music.

I always thought the lowest thing you could do was in an absolutist fashion throw out a whole genre of speakers (incorrectly so, too) after having started a thread on Adele.

Oh wait just reread the thread, you are a fan too, lol - the first two posters on that thread, actually. Congrats
 
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I always thought the lowest thing you could do was in an absolutist fashion throw out a whole genre of speakers (incorrectly so, too) after having started a thread on Adele.

Oh wait just reread the thread, you are a fan too, lol - the first two posters on that thread, actually. Congrats

Not sure I understand your reply.

I AM a fan of panel speakers. I am NOT an absolutist. All types of speakers will appeal different listeners.

I love Magnepans, I grew up with Quads, etc. But dynamic speakers are working better in my new main listening
space. I do have Maggie MMGs in my smaller office system.

I ALSO have both tubed and SS amps. Absolutist? Hardly.

As far as Adele.I am not the biggest fan, I respect her talent. My wife is a fanatic.
 
I always thought the lowest thing you could do was in an absolutist fashion throw out a whole genre of speakers (incorrectly so, too) after having started a thread on Adele.

Oh wait just reread the thread, you are a fan too, lol - the first two posters on that thread, actually. Congrats

You are entitled to your opinion, but it would be a very good idea to make sure that everyone realizes that it is just that---your opinion.
Since you seem to dislike Adele so much, I think you are going to be in a very small group...of bonzos:D
 
Not sure I understand your reply.

I AM a fan of panel speakers. I am NOT an absolutist. All types of speakers will appeal different listeners.

I love Magnepans, I grew up with Quads, etc. But dynamic speakers are working better in my new main listening
space. I do have Maggie MMGs in my smaller office system.

I ALSO have both tubed and SS amps. Absolutist? Hardly.

As far as Adele.I am not the biggest fan, I respect her talent. My wife is a fanatic.

The absolutist statement I referred to was by DaveyF not you - "no electrostatic can come close to a great dynamic driver when it comes to reproduce dynamics. " - to which I replied with a post on stats, non stat panels, and horns. Thing being that dynamic driver speakers are actually nowhere the last word in dynamics
 
The absolutist statement I referred to was by DaveyF not you - "no electrostatic can come close to a great dynamic driver when it comes to reproduce dynamics. " - to which I replied with a post on stats, non stat panels, and horns. Thing being that dynamic driver speakers are actually nowhere the last word in dynamics


As I said, ( and which you somehow failed to include) I personally believe no electrostatic can come close to a great dynamic driver when it comes to reproducing dynamics...IMHO...and to my ears. Now, you may believe that differently, which is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, you failed to add in your opinion. So the statements that you are and were making are far more absolutist. Unless you happen to be the all mighty a'phile that none can argue with...aka-- SIR bonzo the c...n:p
 

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