The State of High End Audio

[amirm]

What would I do..recuse myself from the moderating team.. sit back , worry free.. write those well constructed replies and enjoy life as a pleb and as such you can also hit the ignore button at your will...Seriously..you sound very stressed about all this. Really not worth it

I appreciate the thought . I can do that but the problem is that the bullies have a master plan to go after a certain group of membership next. Is that worth a fight? It has been so far for reasons I mentioned. I don't appreciate bullying against the membership and that is precisely what will happen. Me, I have my abilities and power in the forum. The members will be defenseless.

 

[Gregadd]

I was trying to post before Amir about not publishing negative PM because you are just doing their work for them.
You would think you would not have to tell grownups not to engage in name calling in public or private doscourse. I have been publicly called many names on this forum without the slightest intervention. Often the perpetrator or his supporters publicly told me I need to man up or develop a thick skin.

 

[amirm]

I thought I might shed some light on this issue because I was insulted via PM. This indidividual was very shrewd.
He disguised his insult. I sent it to a few members. They thought it was outrageous. I ?eported it. No action was taken. Defamation requires publication.

In other words the sender's assumption of privacy was false.

I was not about to publish it for him.

What if that saga went on? What if he reported you by changing the story and the management sanctioned you? What if he then came here and said you were the "bad guy?" What would you do?

I briefly reviewed WBF TOS. As you might expect I saw no mention of PM . Maybe I missed it. Documents usually are construed by there plain meaning. Private means private. Confidentiality and privledged are more precise terms.

We already have clear exclusions in our TOS. For example this:

"17. We reserve the right to reveal your identity or whatever information we know about you in the event of a legal action arising from any message posted by you."

So there should not be any implicit assumption of privacy and confidentiality here.

 

[amirm]

Please do not insinuate that I have ever sent an inappropriate PM to anyone at WBF. To my recollection, I have not.

"To your recollection?" This is the kind of statement I expect to see with someone trained on witness stand. Are you giving me permission to disclose any PMs you have sent to the management team which paints me in highly negative way?

And I have only reported two posts as being inappropriate in my entire four year history here at WBF.

I don't know how many you have reported. What I know is that you are a cause of constant agitation behind the scenes, and in public. I mean how many times have I have to tell you to not say WBF is bad? I rather see you report posts than these constant, secret and public stirring of the pot with negativity.

If you feel it is necessary to sanction me for inappropriate language, please do and help me to understand what it is that I have written that warrants such action. You keep writing "you" as though you are referring to me. I feel like you are using me and my words as an example where none exists. It is starting to feel very personal, Amir.

The "you" was the generic "you" in my post. But you want me to disclose examples of PMs that are hurtful toward me, just give me permission per above and I will post them here. Your name repeatedly comes up as a disgruntled member causing us significant amount of time dealing with it.

As I have said to you, we have heard you. You don't need to keep repeating it. You are unhappy. We get it. If you dislike the forum so much the right course of action is to go and find another forum that makes you happy. It is not to repeatedly try to agitate the situation to see if you can transform the forum to your liking. There would be nothing left of this forum if we allowed everyone to have such power and influence over us.

 

[JackD201]

We already have clear exclusions in our TOS. For example this:

"17. We reserve the right to reveal your identity or whatever information we know about you in the event of a legal action arising from any message posted by you."

So there should not be any implicit assumption of privacy and confidentiality here.

As the condition is clear, that is not a good example.

 

[Gregadd]

In other words the sender's assumption of privacy was false.


What if that saga went on? What if he reported you by changing the story and the management sanctioned you? What if he then came here and said you were the "bad guy?" What would you do?


We already have clear exclusions in our TOS. For example this:

"17. We reserve the right to reveal your identity or whatever information we know about you in the event of a legal action arising from any message posted by you."

So there should not be any implicit assumption of privacy and confidentiality here.

I would remind you I suffered a sanction by WBF that I felt was completely baseless.
I don't recall burning anyone at the stake in public or in private. I just took a hiatus.
Your interpretation of TOS is specious .unless of course there is a legal action of which I am unaware. I realize you have had a lot to digest. Privacy differs from confidentiality and privlege as I said earlier.

 

[Folsom]

Robin's brother?

No. He would have been considered the foremost expert in electron beams for many years. These days he's a bit old and not really too into it. I thought Rodney might know him/about him if he's into lasers. He's one of the guys that is responsible for how the world works today, from his multiple inventions. I've met him twice, about 27 years apart; and he's my uncle.

 

[Gregadd]

I appreciate the thought . I can do that but the problem is that the bullies have a master plan to go after a certain group of membership next. Is that worth a fight? It has been so far for reasons I mentioned. I don't appreciate bullying against the membership and that is precisely what will happen. Me, I have my abilities and power in the forum. The members will be defenseless.

"...the bullies have a master plan to go after a certain group of membership next...?"
I think you should go back to Vegas for a vacation.
Don't think about WBF or Audio for awhile

 

[Blizzard]

Well you do seem to have something of the evangelical about you Mike but I am aware the message is of no formal organised religion in its origins.

It's not complicated either it's implementation is beyond our programming on any meaningful scale.

Oh and conflict is the humans one constant, whether it be behavioural based, individual of as part of a collective or biological in nature as our body's are fields of war one way or another. Anyhow this is why we are all still here and why we are advanced like we are as a species...Might be to complicated for so some I would hope not

the conflict going on here will stop when both sides realise there is merrit in each other's arguments and feelings of dissatisfaction. Ones theoretical in nature, the private is private and the other is a guy who feels he has no support and got a little fed up... Probably been feeling this way for some time but it's all seems to of got blown up now.

I don't know what's going on behind the scenes but when your in the public eye like the bosses here you will get dumped on, the secret is coming together in support of one another. That will give you the strength to rise above the abuse and nonsensical goings on that are bound to happen in this domain.

It's sad that one of you felt so lacking in that support, to be driven to publish pm messages. Rather than have a song and dance about what's passed why don't you have a private chat about how you all got thier in the first place...

Warning this will require some emotional honesty.

Good luck to you all..

I never said it was complicated, but is for some as we see the bickering persists. Anyways I trimmed it down just for you and left the last paragraph. You should pickup the entire book one day. It's in the public domain now so no copy write protection as it's over 50 years old. PDF version available here for free:

https://ia601404.us.archive.org/6/i...n_16_Lessons/law-of-success-napoleon-hill.pdf

 

[bonzo75]

...the bullies have a master plan to go after a certain group of members...?

There's a hit list that's classified as above top secret (seriously, there exists a classification called above top secret in the US)

 

[amirm]

Two moderators did apologize to me on behalf of WBF, and I appreciate that.

I was not aware of this and have to speak to ones that did that. I am very surprised to hear that such apology has gone out to you and not disclosed to me in advance for discussion.

I trust that those apologies came via PM? And that you do not have permission to disclose such PMs from the senders?

Can you explain if privacy in PMs is vital to you, why you felt free to so casually post the nature of those two PMs here?

 

[Blizzard]

"...the bullies have a master plan to go after a certain group of membership next...?"
I think you should go back to Vegas for a vacation.
Don't think about WBF or Audio for awhile

The problem with the bullies is, they feel their audio gear is weak, so they attack others. This is an audio forum, so if it's not about audio, then they are in the wrong forum anyways. If you're confident with your system, no need to bully others, as you should be smiling too much to think about it.

 

[Blizzard]

No. He would have been considered the foremost expert in electron beams for many years. These days he's a bit old and not really too into it. I thought Rodney might know him/about him if he's into lasers. He's one of the guys that is responsible for how the world works today, from his multiple inventions. I've met him twice, about 27 years apart; and he's my uncle.

Ahh ok, so I guess he's not quite as generous as his brother then.

 

[amirm]

I would remind you I suffered a sanction by WBF that I felt was completely baseless.
I don't recall burning anyone at the stake in public or in private. I just took a hiatus.

There are only four of us in management team. You just disclosed that to the public with the arrow pointing at us. So there is no consistency in what you wrote above.

It is fine actually. It made you feel good and for all I know, you may have been right. Send me a PM on which sanction it was and I will revisit.

For now, you have disclosed the PMs you said were private with other parties and by reporting it, to all four of us in management. I am puzzled why as an attorney you are advocating what you did was wrong as a matter of law???

Your interpretation of TOS is specious .unless of course there is a legal action of which I am unaware. I realize you have had a lot to digest. Privacy differs from confidentiality and privlege as I said earlier.

No. I was addressing your point that nothing in TOS addresses PM. I pointed out that there is coverage of that in that specific clause of TOS so your casual read missed that. Read the rest and you will see that we have other rights as clearly stipulated there.

For now, I have made it clear that as an individual, if you write unprofessional, bullying, insulting, rude PMs to me as a number have done in the past, I may disclose them. If you know of a statute that bars me from disclosing communications made *to me* in this regard, I appreciate reading about it.

 

[thedudeabides]

THIS is the State of High End Audio??? !!! ???

I'm confused. The above is Post No. 659, which is the title of the thread. The following 110 posts or so seem to have nothing to do with the original thread and everything to do with personal issues, insults and conflict amongst forum members.

Can someone please explain why this seems to happen (this is hardly the first time) and how this is consistent with the TOS and the overall goals and objectives of WBF?

Frankly, if I was a first time visitor and read the last 100+ posts, I'd likely have a not so positive opinion of this forum and question whether or not I would choose to participate.

And now, people are talking about "legal action".

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'm confused. The above is Post No. 659, which is the title of the thread. The following 110 posts or so seem to have nothing to do with the original thread and everything to do with personal issues, insults and conflict amongst forum members.

Can someone please explain why this seems to happen (this is hardly the first time) and how this is consistent with the TOS and the overall goals and objectives of WBF?

Frankly, if I was a first time visitor and read the last 100+ posts, I'd likely have a not so positive opinion of this forum and question whether or not I would choose to participate.

And now, people are talking about "legal action".

It's almost embarrassing IMO.

 

[Folsom]

Ahh ok, so I guess he's not quite as generous as his brother then.

Actually as a matter of perspective, extensively more so... He under charged for everything his whole life. The one time he did a fair charge he was going to retire on the payment. Then some inside action with the company doing the sale of the equipment and a state senator prevented him from being paid - absolute corruption.

If you own anything made from titanium it is because of his work with electron beams.

 

[spazmatron]

I'm confused. The above is Post No. 659, which is the title of the thread. The following 110 posts or so seem to have nothing to do with the original thread and everything to do with personal issues, insults and conflict amongst forum members.

Can someone please explain why this seems to happen (this is hardly the first time) and how this is consistent with the TOS and the overall goals and objectives of WBF?

Frankly, if I was a first time visitor and read the last 100+ posts, I'd likely have a not so positive opinion of this forum and question whether or not I would choose to participate.

And now, people are talking about "legal action".

I know what your saying but in fact it's a plus in my view people get the chance to work things through in this way. If this had been shut down the glowing embers of discontent would keep burning us forever.

Quite how all this upset comes to pass is another matter, why anyone would feel the need to send caustic messages to one another is beyond me. We all like a moan now and then but the kind of nonsense pm messages amir seems to of received are plain bizarre.

A tip to anyone who would send me insults please try harder to offend me than the sad unimaginative and thoroughly underwhelming efforts amir has received. I won't ever be offended but you may if you try really hard make me laugh by trying.

 

[amirm]

PM short for Private Message.....................perhaps private merely refers to the fact it is on a private forum rather than WWW email or something.

In any case, Private Messages aren't private. So what is the correct name for them not to confuse people?

Maybe PM, personal message or maybe PNPM for Personal not private message?

I knew PM's weren't private altogether. However, like calling someone I work with personally at their house and discussing things, I would generally expect that not be relayed to everyone where I work. If the phone call involved threats of violence or sabotage okay I get it. Other than such extremes it seems at least decorus to keep such things out of the public. Not a requirement I guess, and not a rule as PM's work on forums, but certainly something you might generally expect to be the case.

I was taken back by the points you made and wanted to give a thoughtful response and hence waiting 'till today.

It is a good way to reflect in our real life as a guiding principle on how we do this. What you are saying is that there are unwritten rules of ethical conduct that you uphold yourself and neighbor to that would give you very high confidence of privacy sans legal consideration. That rule works here too. Let's say you consider Frantz such a neighbor here. I am confident he will reciprocate just the same and any discussion you two have will come with the same implied assumption of privacy. Ditto if you did it with me.

Let me make you feel worse before better . Both Steve and I and our service provider have computer privileges to read everything ever posted in our forum including all PMs! Everything is an object in a database and with sufficient skills and knowledge, it is there for all to see.

Here is the good news. Neither Steve or I have ever felt the need to go and do that, nor have we investigate how it can be done. We have no need or desire to go and snoop on your communications any more than someone at Microsoft or Google want to sit there and read what you have sent using their systems. So if you are worried about whatever you have said to a friend, there is no reason to be concerned. Whatever confidence you have with your neighbor in real life, you can have it here.

What went on here was different. A member repeatedly sent me insulting PMs and then proceeded to expand that by reporting me. This would be like your neighbor going and reporting you to the county saying you have no permit for your fence when you do. How much would you trust him after pulling that stunt? You think he would keep your voicemails private and you can confess you stole a pencil from work to him there?

As a site co-founder, I have a responsibility to come up with solutions to these problems. A handful of member have become so emboldened with lack of action on my part that they feel they can create any and all amount of agitation in the forum and that for doing us that favor, they even deserve some thanks. I have decided to do something about that. It is a personal decision by me. I have been very clear under which circumstances I will share PMs and this has been it.

So to summarize, nothing has been said here to imply your communications with your friends in a friendly manner has been compromised. It has not. If you send PMs however that violate what we stand for, that person can report it and we see it. This is a function of our forum software which thousands of other sites online use and hence its use is prevalent. There is nothing different about ours. Conduct yourself in professional manner and this should not impact you one bit. Ditto for sending me the same messages.

 

[Gregadd]

There are only four of us in management team. You just disclosed that to the public with the arrow pointing at us. So there is no consistency in what you wrote above.

It is fine actually. It made you feel good and for all I know, you may have been right. Send me a PM on which sanction it was and I will revisit.

For now, you have disclosed the PMs you said were private with other parties and by reporting it, to all four of us in management. I am puzzled why as an attorney you are advocating what you did was wrong as a matter of law???


No. I was addressing your point that nothing in TOS addresses PM. I pointed out that there is coverage of that in that specific clause of TOS so your casual read missed that. Read the rest and you will see that we have other rights as clearly stipulated there.

For now, I have made it clear that as an individual, if you write unprofessional, bullying, insulting, rude PMs to me as a number have done in the past, I may disclose them. If you know of a statute that bars me from disclosing communications made *to me* in this regard, I appreciate reading about it.

I think I said PM was not mentioned.A personal message sent to you in your role as member. That is not information in the possession of the. management team. Finally your right to divulge information is conditioned on the presence of a legal action.
You have not named any such action.
As to the TOS. You refer to a managent team. I assume you are not allowed to unilaterally amend TOS. Do you have their consent?
I have not revealed any PM from the management team. My sanction was a very public three day ban. The reason was publicly stated after the fact.
Seriously.
Take a vacation.