The State of High End Audio

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
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Two points that (as usual) were overlooked. First, I clearly stated "approximated". Second, the posts I reported made a big deal out of using the Fletcher-Munson curves, including using up a large part of the page with their graphic representation. One particular person's posts continue to be arrogant, authoritative in tone, and often incorrect. It is reminiscent of another member who no longer participates here (first name initial E).

And I think amirm still owes PeterA a public apology.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Two points that (as usual) were overlooked. First, I clearly stated "approximated".
No, you said and I quote: "A-weighting approximates an inverse of the Fletcher-Munson curves." Curves? How can one filter curve in the meter approximate all of those curves? And further, as I said, the db error with 40 phon alone is 10 db. Since these are power ratios, every 3 dB corresponds to doubling of power. 10 db is 8X difference in power.

So there approximations and there are approximations. Here is the wiki again on this topic:

The curves were originally defined for use at different average sound levels, but A-weighting, though originally intended only for the measurement of low-level sounds (around 40 phon), is now commonly used for the measurement of environmental noise and industrial noise, as well as when assessing potential hearing damage and other noise health effects at all sound levels; indeed, the use of A-frequency-weighting is now mandated for all these measurements, although it is badly suited for these purposes, being only applicable to low levels so that it tends to devalue the effects of low frequency noise in particular.[1] It is also used when measuring low-level noise in audio equipment, especially in the U.S.A.[citation needed] In Britain, Europe and many other parts of the world, broadcasters and audio engineers[who?] more often use the ITU-R 468 noise weighting, which was developed in the 1960s based on research by the BBC and other organizations. This research showed that our ears respond differently to random noise, and the equal-loudness curves on which the A, B and C weightings were based are really only valid for pure single tones.[citation needed]

Exactly the same points I have been making. When a measurement has such gross errors, you don't get a free pass by saying "well, I said approximately." This, when I gave the correct explanation. Not once. But twice. I even linked you to my article. Yet here you come again???

Second, the posts I reported made a big deal out of using the Fletcher-Munson curves, including using up a large part of the page with their graphic representation.
Yes, as *curves* with the threshold being key. Not as one dumb number your uncalibrated SPL meter spits out. You perform an FFT of the noise in your room and then compare the two spans together as I showed:



You see the solid line saying "threshold?" That is Fletcher-Munson. The dashed lines are computed conversion of the noise to corresponding sine power (ERB) and plotted against that.

Now you can easily compare the two. Where your measurement falls below the solid line of Fletcher-Munson threshold, to the average population it would be inaudible at those frequencies. If above, the reverse. No single number on your meter may apply.

One particular person's posts continue to be arrogant, authoritative in tone, and often incorrect. It is reminiscent of another member who no longer participates here (first name initial E).

And I think amirm still owes PeterA a public apology.
Right now I am looking for your apology in accusing me of not knowing what A-weighting is. And for continuing to throw terms and misinformation out there that you have not researched in the slightest.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Here are the other PMs Rob sent me:

rbbert said:
amirm said:
Hi Rob. Not following you here. If there is an issue and you have some technical knowledge to share, please do it in the thread so that everyone can learn. I don't mind being corrected that way so please go ahead.
rbbert said:
Do you suppose you might find the time to remove your irrelevant and inaacurate posts, #544 and #547, from this thread

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19525-The-State-of-High-End-Audio/page55

I think on review and reflection you can see that "shooting from the hip" leads to statements we wish we had never made (or posts we had never posted)

Rob

PeterA gave his A-weighted room SPL measurements. You then spouted 2 posts worth of nonsense, or do you not understand what A-weighting is?

You speak of being cordial to members yet this is what you send me? And explain how what I post is irrelevant to figuring out if your room is silent or not in the presence of noise with unknown spectrum?
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
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The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
Amir, PM's are just that. PRIVATE messages. Please respect that aspect sir or give fair warning to the membership that private messages to you aren't....well, private.

Tom
 

Blizzard

Banned
Sep 30, 2015
3,049
3
0
Amir, PM's are just that. PRIVATE messages. Please respect that aspect sir or give fair warning to the membership that private messages to you aren't....well, private.

Tom

What it they are unwanted?
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
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Reno, NV
I'd have to check to be sure, but I think posting a PM without both people's permission is also a violation of the TOS (not that I care in this case); it is in most forums.

And 10 dB represents a 10x power difference (not 8).
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Amir, PM's are just that. PRIVATE messages. Please respect that aspect sir or give fair warning to the membership that private messages to you aren't....well, private.

Tom
No they are not Tom. PM is the name for email in our forum. If someone sent you an email and cursed you three times, you have the right and justification to show that to anyone you like. You cannot use the PM system to abuse a member. Indeed right in every PM, there is an option to report it as violating our terms. As you know, many PMs have been reported and as such are no longer private. You have seen them and I don't recall you raising any privacy issues then.

Write cordial emails/PMs and you don't have to worry about them becoming public. Write unprofessional and insulting ones and you better assume it will get out. The last guy who is going to respect your privacy is the one you just insulted!
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
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www.avrev.com
I'd have to check to be sure, but I think posting a PM without both people's permission is also a violation of the TOS (not that I care in this case); it is in most forums.

And 10 dB represents a 10x power difference (not 8).

If it is not against the TOS, it is at the very least low class. I had it happen to me one time and it told me all I needed to know about the person who did it.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
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Seattle, WA
I'd have to check to be sure, but I think posting a PM without both people's permission is also a violation of the TOS (not that I care in this case); it is in most forums.
Well, in any forum I know, if you curse the forum founder in PM, you wouldn't last long enough to know what the TOS is. We provide such extensive freedom to membership that they go as far as cursing said founder not once but repeatedly. And then come here ask for protection due to TOS?

FYI I created our Terms of Service and in doing so, reviewed a number of other forum TOS. I don't remember any of them having such terms. But I love to read them. Can you list a few?

And 10 dB represents a 10x power difference (not 8).
So you realize that your "approximation" was off by a factor of 10 and this is all you thought to comment on?
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
If it is not against the TOS, it is at the very least low class. I had it happen to me one time and it told me all I needed to know about the person who did it.
For a week I have kept what Rob sent me private. Yet he kept going after it. Then he goes and reports me to the admin. Let me ask you this: what do you know about him now?|

So it is clear, I have kept dark secrets in PM to my absolute detriment. I had a guy on AVS forum come to us ask for a consulting deal and in exchange he would write good things about us there. I told him no. He immediately went and trashed us to no end. I bit my lip and did not disclose whatsoever what he had done despite the punishment we took. So you don't need to tell me about this principal.

In this forum, I am sitting on a mountain of nastiest, most insulting PMs sent to me in the last three months than my entire lifetime elsewhere. None of you have seen them. What has happened is that this has emboldened those members to do more and more of it. There is no cost to them so why not?

As I mentioned in the other thread, the latest one said this about me in PM: "People are saying you look like an ill kept hunched over old man. It's a shame what 10 hours in front of a computer screen does to one's heath."

Let me ask you this. If someone had written the above to you, what obligation do you feel to keep their message private? And what should I think of you if you disclosed such a message?

Note how I have not told you who wrote the above.
 

spazmatron

Banned
Dec 4, 2015
190
0
0
Somerset, uk
Well, in any forum I know, if you curse the forum founder in PM, you wouldn't last long enough to know what the TOS is. We provide such extensive freedom to membership that they go as far as cursing said founder not once but repeatedly. And then come here ask for protection due to TOS?

FYI I created our Terms of Service and in doing so, reviewed a number of other forum TOS. I don't remember any of them having such terms. But I love to read them. Can you list a few?


So you realize that your "approximation" was off by a factor of 10 and this is all you thought to comment on?

Praise be our merciful King :D

You all do I great job, but you are straying into territory that undermines your own hard work and effort. It's some what uncouth to say the least.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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so the forum owner is now disclosing PM's. he must be pretty desperate to get to that point. and then to say that it's like an email so then it's ok. as if any of us would be ok for our personal email exchanges to be posted.

somewhere out there is a line. it just got crossed.

I guess that is where things have now gone to.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
so the forum owner is now disclosing PM's. he must be pretty desperate to get to that point. and then to say that it's like an email so then it's ok. as if any of us would be ok for our personal email exchanges to be posted.

somewhere out there is a line. it just got crossed.

I guess that is where things have now gone to.

A line was crossed Mike. This is not it.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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A line was crossed Mike. This is not it.

it's you that is disclosing private messages. no one else. besides that just conjecture and innuendo.

in business it's called 'fiduciary responsibility'.....'good faith' and all that. or maybe dirty laundry. in any case; it's not for public consumption....unless.....one is looking to bend public sentiment and get out ahead of an issue.

sorry; but you can't have it both ways. either there is trust between forum managers or there is not. if there is not, then it's only a matter of time before this implodes.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
it's you that is disclosing private messages. no one else. besides that just conjecture and innuendo.

in business it's called 'fiduciary responsibility'.....'good faith' and all that. or maybe dirty laundry. in any case; it's not for public consumption....unless.....one is looking to bend public sentiment and get out ahead of an issue.

sorry; but you can't have it both ways. either there is trust between forum managers or there is not. if there is not, then it's only a matter of time before this implodes.
That's fine. Let me be clear though on my position from here on:

Do not send me insulting, rude and obnoxious messages to me in PM. If you do so, I may disclose them to my peers in the forum admin and in public. Your only assurance of privacy comes from being respectful, professional and person of high ethics. To the extent you leave those at the door, please don't look to me to continue to follow them for you (although I do my best to do better than you/the PM sender do).

BTW, I have seen PMs you have sent to others. And I have heard you forwarding my PMs to others. True or not, I am Ok with all of them or I would have come complaining to you.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
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A line was crossed Mike. This is not it.

Believe it or not, I agree with you, Amir. You do have a point. And insulting PMs have no place here and should be able to be disclosed if warranted.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,602
11,695
4,410
That's fine. Let me be clear though on my position from here on:

Do not send me insulting, rude and obnoxious messages to me in PM. If you do so, I may disclose them to my peers in the forum admin and in public. Your only assurance of privacy comes from being respectful, professional and person of high ethics. To the extent you leave those at the door, please don't look to me to continue to follow them for you (although I do my best to do better than you/the PM sender do).

BTW, I have seen PMs you have sent to others. And I have heard you forwarding my PMs to others. True or not, I am Ok with all of them or I would have come complaining to you.

Amir;

no doubt the best defense is a good offense. I have no doubt you can sling it with the best.

WBF is not worth being threatened.

you reap what you sow.

enjoy.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Sep 30, 2015
3,049
3
0
If the tears aren't flowing in Blizzards corner, we can always be assured they will be flowing elsewhere. And always the same guys. Reminds me of elementary school in the playground at recess. Some of the kids would always be crying at a drop of a hat. I guess this is the adult playground and it's the same kids, only now fully grown up.
 

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