tima's DIY RCM

[rDin]

However, keep in mind that the P60 us a powerful unit for its size and will heat up pretty quickly.

Going from your book I did a quick calculation that the P60 is 30w/L, very similar to the P120, which suggests to me that going with the 80% rating for the wash that Tim uses seems reasonable.

Your requirements are most the severe of anyone I have ever worked with cleaning records.

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment!

Anyway, so far so good. The machine seems to perform extremely well - a combination of power and optimal rotation (the Kirmuss, I now see, really spins the disc - I'll measure it but I'm guessing 1.5 - 2.0 RPM: edit it’s 2 1/4 RPM). Heating the water is slower than the Degritter, although it's cold here at present, so ambient temperature is low which may help, but which means more work time is available. The ease of cleaning the unit between sessions is a joy and removes all residue anxiety I have with the Degritter.

Tim, how long have you been running yours - any signs of reliability issues? I'm on my 3rd and 4th Degritters. The Kirmuss continues to plod along. Elma note that the transducers and tank are "wear items", but, rather like the Kirmuss, I hope to get years from these machines...

 

[rDin]

I'm imagining you can ... declamp from the wash and move to the rinse ... 3 records should be manageable.

Exactly this. Lift from one machine to the other. Going from Neil's book and spacing discussion within, 3 records seems maximum/optimal.

 

[tima]

Tim, how long have you been running yours - any signs of reliability issues? I'm on my 3rd and 4th Degritters. The Kirmuss continues to plod along. Elma note that the transducers and tank are "wear items", but, rather like the Kirmuss, I hope to get years from these machines...

I bought the P120H in the spring of 2018 and it contnues to run well. My original Chinese tank did not last a year. The rheostat on the heat control went out.

Elma claims their units use a metal tank that resists wear, nonetheless, it is a consumable. The transducers eventual wear the metal tank where they are attached to it. You should be able to see where the transducers are, appearing as circles. A symptom of wear is a gray-ish coloration inside a circle -- it is no longer as shiny as when new -- metal fatigue. I do see this happening to mine in a couple spots -- it is not uniform across all transducers. Today it is minimal and I'm guessing I probably have a couple more years. It has served me well and I'm happy I made the Elmasonic choice.

 

[tima]

It was the width of the Kuzma rig - I couldn't see whether that was adjustable in any way to the narrowness of the P60...?

The width of the RD is not adjustable. However the useable width area of the spindle is adjustable with a hex key. As I have not tried with a P60, I speculate that the RD would sit over the P60 and you could adjust the spindle end stop to center your records properly. The other end of a the spindle uses an adjustable clamp that you fix against the front side record when you load the spindle with records and spacers. Fwiw, the RD comes with a weighted stand that can hold the spindle straight up for loading and at a 45-degree angle for drying and dismount.

The RD does have two ways to adjust height. That is where a measurement would help before purchase. Of course Franc might be able to tell you. He is very approachable via e-mail.

I can take pictures of the details if you want to pursue this.

 

[rDin]

Thanks for the info. It confirms what I thought. I have limited surface space in my cleaning room, which is why I went for the P60s. I don’t think the Kuzma is for me at this time.

 

[rDin]

Is there any utility to heating the bath and allowing the records to spin in the water for a while before using ultrasonics? I'm thinking two possibilities here - 1) the heat expands the records a little which might help loosen some dirt 2) the warm water might soften any dirt present, allowing the ultrasonics an easier time. Or is it felt that the time in the water under ultrasonics does the same any way and so a "pre-soak" would be redundant?

 

[tima]

Is there any utility to heating the bath and allowing the records to spin in the water for a while before using ultrasonics? I'm thinking two possibilities here - 1) the heat expands the records a little which might help loosen some dirt 2) the warm water might soften any dirt present, allowing the ultrasonics an easier time. Or is it felt that the time in the water under ultrasonics does the same any way and so a "pre-soak" would be redundant?

Interesting questions.

Certain surfactants work more effectively at certain temperatures -- which is one reason some ultrasonic machines have heaters. I don't have the 'best' number for Tergitol off the top of my head, but likely Neil will tell us.

What I do is run the de-gassing function of the Elma for 10 minutes before the start of a cleaning session. This will heat the water. Though varying somewhat by room temperature in my case it typically gets to ~30-31° C. I no longer use the heater. As the machine cleans the records across 2 10 minute cycles the water continues to heat up. By the end of the session the temperature measures ~34-35° C.

I prefer not to get the water too heated. Some systems will include a radiator like those used in gaming computers to control temperature. Caution there as the metal used in some radiators gets into the water. I believe stainless steel is best, but expensive.

The other half of your topic is pre-soaking to soften or loosen particles as a record spins prior to ultrasonic action. Interesting idea. I have not tried this. Then again I tend to buy NM and not clean records with large amounts of dirt on them. I'd say try it and report back. Thus far I find the regimen I use is quite adequate. On occasion I will clean a record twice.

 

[rDin]

I don't use surfactants any more - long story. I may experiment again when my 2nd P60H finally turns up.

My P60 goes from roughly 20C to 23C after 10 minutes of degass at current ambient temps. The 2 x 10 minute cycles will top it off around 28C. I tried pre-heating to 30C and 2 x 10 had it over 35 so I aborted. But I did feel the heated water cleaning benefitted the sound, which got me thinking about the questions above...

I reckon I can heat to about 28, or at least start when 28 and then run the 2 x 10 minute safely.

 

[Neil.Antin]

I don't have the 'best' number for Tergitol off the top of my head, but likely Neil will tell us.

Tim,

For nonionic surfactants there is a property called cloud point. From the book Chapter IX, Cloud point is the temperature when the mixture starts to phase-separate, and two phases appear, thus becoming cloudy. The cloud point is the optimum temperature for detergency, but above the cloud point the surfactant comes out of solution and detergency drops. Cloud point is generally specified at 1% and will generally increase at lower concentrations as much as 75%.

The cloud point maybe the theoretical optimum temperature, but it adds high risk for residue and if filtering, the surfactant concentration can be affected. The cloud point for Tergitol 15-S-9 is 140F (60C), and as long as you are under the cloud point, all is good. However, Tergitol 15-S-7 cloud point is only 99F (37C), so use heated can be a bit dicey.

Take care,
Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

Is there any utility to heating the bath and allowing the records to spin in the water for a while before using ultrasonics?

Read this post and draw your own conclusions. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/timas-diy-rcm.26013/post-742031.

When the record heats up, it will expand - not that you see it. It "may', reduce the energy required to remove small particles since it is very unlikely the particle is going to expand at the same rate. As far as very thin viscous type films, at the temperatures used, the higher temperature is marginal since the film, which is somewhat elastic, will just move with the record. In metal cleaning, the UT tanks are heated 140-180F and now the temperature has a major benefit because it can cause the oil/grease to be more viscous and want to flow.

Otherwise, pre-heating the tank as @tima addresses is recommended.

Take care,
Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

Caution there as the metal used in some radiators gets into the water. I believe stainless steel is best, but expensive.

Tim,

The standard computer radiators are copper just like your car, and exposed to DIW, the DIW will extract Copper ions causing the TDS to rise. However, I found an inexpensive aluminum radiator which is addressed in the book and what @dminches uses for his setup, and it does not cause an increase in TDS. I also have had others use the same radiator successfully with a P60H. It does a good job of keeping the tank temp right about 35C when serial cleaning.

Take care,
Neil

 

[rDin]

Thanks, Neil. I note this point in your linked post: "80khz...with the goal to operate 100% power (with pulse)" - is that a general rule for 80kHz with these machines - use Pulse mode?

 

[rDin]

@tima are you degassing with 80kHz? And pulse?

 

[tima]

@tima are you degassing with 80kHz? And pulse?

Hi - I do 80kHz for degas. I use pulse only when I have particularly dirty records which is not often. If I feel the need to clean a record for the second time, I may use pulse. I tend to be a bit on the conservative side with the P120H as long as I am happy with the results.

 

[rDin]

Thank you. Still getting up to speed with this machine, so your input is most helpful.

 

[tima]

Thank you. Still getting up to speed with this machine, so your input is most helpful.

You have come a long way. It's fun.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Thanks, Neil. I note this point in your linked post: "80khz...with the goal to operate 100% power (with pulse)" - is that a general rule for 80kHz with these machines - use Pulse mode?

You need to experiment and develop a process that works best you. The Elmasonic P-series offers a wide range of operating modes and variable power level. Which combination will work best you, only you can work that out. Otherwise, note that unit in the operating manual Section 6.4, it has a specific Degas mode and during degas, the Sweep or Pulse mode can be active at the same time. The op-man on page 7 implies that degas occurs at 37-kHz. The research I did for the book, indicates 80-kHz would be more efficient in degassing the fluid versus 37-kKh.

Take care,
Neil

 

[rDin]

Which combination will work best you, only you can work that out.

Let me rephrase the question: what does pulse mode bring to the cleaning process that might be beneficial and worth experimenting with?

Re: Degas - I seem to be able to use 80kHz, but when I select Sweep or Pulse mode, the degas light goes off and the machine starts constant ultrasonics rather than the pulsing you get with degas, so unless I'm doing something wrong I think the only degas options on the P60 are frequency and power.

 

[rDin]

@tima does the Kuzma rig hang the records low enough that the deadwax is under the max line in the tank, or do you find you have to top the water up? With the rotisserie I use I'm having to add water to about 1/4" above the max line in order to get into the deadwax. I cannot lower the records any further. Testing suggests they are cleaned as dirt vanishes under UV testing and grooves sound ok, but I'm guessing cleaning efficiency is compromised somewhat...

 

[tima]

@tima does the Kuzma rig hang the records low enough that the deadwax is under the max line in the tank, or do you find you have to top the water up? With the rotisserie I use I'm having to add water to about 1/4" above the max line in order to get into the deadwax. I cannot lower the records any further. Testing suggests they are cleaned as dirt vanishes under UV testing and grooves sound ok, but I'm guessing cleaning efficiency is compromised somewhat...

I put in water to the very top of the tank's water line as the default and that will cover just over the deadwax area of most records. If the record run-out is narrow, I'll add a bit more water. I check that when I insert a spindle-full of records. I also check there is sufficient clearance on both sides of the tank for the records to spin freely.

In addition to stainless steel inserts to vary the height of the Kuzma RD, it does have threaded height adjustable feet, so some fine tuning is available. I also use those to make sure the RD is level.

---------------

According to Elma documentation, for Pulse mode -- "the ultrasonic effect is increased by 20% through an increase in the amplitude of the ultrasonic signal. Advantageous for the removal of tenacious contaminations."

In my P120H manual for each mode it says: "Degas, Sweep and Pulse cannot be operated simultaneously."