Time spent blogging on WBF and ROI

[Mike Lavigne]

I guess I'm not sure who the "naysayers" are because someone arguing against one topic's premise in one place may be arguing for a different topic's premise. Because there obviously isn't a consensus "world's best" there are certainly going to be many different paths to try to get there; why is one more right than another? We don't have many (any?) low-power SET with single-driver and/or horn proponents here, but most of them clearly think their path is the path. I don't agree with that; should I never say anything about that?

a naysayer to me is someone who tends to be 'anti' toward the validity of listening impressions, and 'anti' toward using listening to make choices. and at the same time elusive about their own listening experiences. they live in the theory of their own opinions as opposed to the relating their experiences.

I have no problem in any way with strong opinions contrary to mine based on listening impressions. everyone is entitled to their opinion. we all select our own path for our own reasons.

I'm against anything 'anti'. tell us about what you heard.....and we will go from there.

to be clear I'm not suggesting that we change anything, I'm simply explaining what I meant. it's probably good for us to be stirred up a bit.

 

[thedudeabides]

Mike,

There's a big difference between "stirring up the pot" and posting remarks that have caused numerous threads to be closed by the moderators.

I think reasonable people would agree that this happens quite often on this forum (not to mention the stress that it causes the moderators) and that there's got to be a better way.

But then, maybe I'm wrong.

GG

 

[RBFC]

We're at an impasse. Points are not discussed by examining the topic, but by belittling and attacking those who post. Steve and Amir laid out the Terms of Service for WBF to hopefully set the foundation for collegial debate and conversation. It's never easy or fun to shut down a thread, warn or ban members, or to clean up the trash of a discussion-gone-bad. I'd guess that no two members here have the same exact system or ears, so there will be no "consensus". I see the subjective/objective debate as an exercise in examining why we like the things we do. Thus, subjective preference rules for each of us. We will not buy a piece of equipment that has measurements which correlate with sound qualities we do not enjoy, regardless of the "goodness" of those measured values. The converse does not always seem to be true, so subjective preference rules on an individual basis. The fascinating thing is that we are still in pursuit of understanding all these measured values and how they contribute to the final result, much as variations on food recipes. I absolutely appreciate the science involved: it identifies points of diminishing returns, demonstrates best "areas of compromise", and lets us rule out or rule in certain pieces of gear easily.

The admin team has had to ban folks from the forum who are undoubtedly good people with good ears. Participating here (or on other forums) requires a certain comportment that is not universal.

Lee

 

[MylesBAstor]

We're at an impasse. Points are not discussed by examining the topic, but by belittling and attacking those who post. Steve and Amir laid out the Terms of Service for WBF to hopefully set the foundation for collegial debate and conversation. It's never easy or fun to shut down a thread, warn or ban members, or to clean up the trash of a discussion-gone-bad. I'd guess that no two members here have the same exact system or ears, so there will be no "consensus". I see the subjective/objective debate as an exercise in examining why we like the things we do. Thus, subjective preference rules for each of us. We will not buy a piece of equipment that has measurements which correlate with sound qualities we do not enjoy, regardless of the "goodness" of those measured values. The converse does not always seem to be true, so subjective preference rules on an individual basis. The fascinating thing is that we are still in pursuit of understanding all these measured values and how they contribute to the final result, much as variations on food recipes. I absolutely appreciate the science involved: it identifies points of diminishing returns, demonstrates best "areas of compromise", and lets us rule out or rule in certain pieces of gear easily.

The admin team has had to ban folks from the forum who are undoubtedly good people with good ears. Participating here (or on other forums) requires a certain comportment that is not universal.

Lee

I think that there's a common thread among the threads that have been locked. It's the same thing, just in a different package. Practically ever three to four months like clockwork. And we all know the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expect ing a different result. No one has anything new to add to the discussion and it's the same old xxxx rehashed again and again. Lot's of circular reasoning.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I agree with myles here as with some other posters ,with my new fullrange speakers to me the whole high end thing is more or less a done deal , i could certainly improve the listening expirience by investing in a room but its not where my interest lies and off course practical reasons , if the industry would come up with a modern made tape machine ,now that would be new and cool .
But since that doesnt happen i am happy with the soundsystem and hell there are other nice hobbies to enjoy

 

[rockitman]

if the industry would come up with a modern made tape machine ,now that would be new and cool .

The closest you can get to that is a UHA Phase11. Major parts...control bd, spooling motors are still available NOS. The rest of the stock Tascam components...heads and preamp, ect are gone and replaced with superior components.

 

[thedudeabides]

The fascinating thing is that we are still in pursuit of understanding all these measured values and how they contribute to the final result, much as variations on food recipes.
Lee

HI Lee,

Maybe that's one of the "rubs" with the measurement people. Outside of verifying the obvious, I could care less about measurements. The "O" crowd could interpret that as an "insult", consider me uninformed, and question my judgment as a result of "their" beliefs.

That's not to mean they are insignificant but I am a "trust your ears" type at my heart, have been for some 35 years plus and always will be.

I mean no harm or disrespect to those that place significant value on measurement but it's just who I am.

Seems pretty basic.

GG

 

[DonH50]

People like to help each other, and do not like it when their help is questioned. Beliefs enter into it, people get riled, conversation degenerates.

Example:

A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B. I do not see how a pet rock can do any of that. Have you measured the system?
A: Why would I care about measurements? I can hear it!
B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.
A: I don't need some test, I can tell it works! And I just had my friend over and he heard it too so there!
B: That's ridiculous you are both nuts. I'm just trying to save you money.
A: OK, I found an article by the Pet Rock Sound chief engineer. I don't understand it, but he says it aligns the molecular flow of the universe inside my room and that's why it works.
B: Sounds like marketing. What measurements did they take?
A: There's a graph, it shows ripples in the force without the Pet Rock that are gone when it is added. Happy now?
B: No, that is meaningless. You are all mad.
A: Well, prove it! Measure the molecular flow with and without a Pet Rock and see the difference! Then you can see and show us all why it works.
B: That is nuts and I don't have anything like that kind of equipment.
A: Then you can't prove it doesn't work! You're a geek with no ears!
B: You have so much expectation bias it is running out of your ears. No wonder you think you hear something.
A; Snooty objectivist scumbag.
B: Ignorant gullible subjectivist.
<Thread closed>

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE! No relation to any actual people, audio systems, or Pet Rocks is implied. No Pet Rocks were harmed in the making of this post.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

That's hilarious! LOLOLOL!

 

[LL21]

Incredibly well written...all the way to the <thread closed> bit...just had to laugh...

People like to help each other, and do not like it when their help is questioned. Beliefs enter into it, people get riled, conversation degenerates.

Example:

A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B. I do not see how a pet rock can do any of that. Have you measured the system?
A: Why would I care about measurements? I can hear it!
B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.
A: I don't need some test, I can tell it works! And I just had my friend over and he heard it too so there!
B: That's ridiculous you are both nuts. I'm just trying to save you money.
A: OK, I found an article by the Pet Rock Sound chief engineer. I do't understand it, but he says it aligns the molecular flow of the universe inside my room and that's why it works.
B: Sounds like marketing. What measurements did they take?
A: There's a graph, it shows ripples in the force without the Pet Rock that are gone when it is added. Happy now?
B: No, that is meaningless. You are all mad.
A: Well, prove it! Measure the molecular flow with and without a Pet Rock and see the difference! Then you can see and show us all why it works.
B: That is nuts and I don't have anything like that kind of equipment.
A: Then you can't prove it doesn't work! You're a geek with no ears!
B: You have so much expectation bias it is running out of your ears. No wonder you think you hear something.
A; Snooty objectivist scumbag.
B: Ignorant gullible subjectivist.
<Thread closed>

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE! No relation to any actual people, audio systems, or Pet Rocks is implied. No Pet Rocks were harmed in the making of this post.

 

[RogerD]

I love it....Well done Don

People like to help each other, and do not like it when their help is questioned. Beliefs enter into it, people get riled, conversation degenerates.

Example:

A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B. I do not see how a pet rock can do any of that. Have you measured the system?
A: Why would I care about measurements? I can hear it!
B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.
A: I don't need some test, I can tell it works! And I just had my friend over and he heard it too so there!
B: That's ridiculous you are both nuts. I'm just trying to save you money.
A: OK, I found an article by the Pet Rock Sound chief engineer. I do't understand it, but he says it aligns the molecular flow of the universe inside my room and that's why it works.
B: Sounds like marketing. What measurements did they take?
A: There's a graph, it shows ripples in the force without the Pet Rock that are gone when it is added. Happy now?
B: No, that is meaningless. You are all mad.
A: Well, prove it! Measure the molecular flow with and without a Pet Rock and see the difference! Then you can see and show us all why it works.
B: That is nuts and I don't have anything like that kind of equipment.
A: Then you can't prove it doesn't work! You're a geek with no ears!
B: You have so much expectation bias it is running out of your ears. No wonder you think you hear something.
A; Snooty objectivist scumbag.
B: Ignorant gullible subjectivist.
<Thread closed>

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE! No relation to any actual people, audio systems, or Pet Rocks is implied. No Pet Rocks were harmed in the making of this post.

 

[Bruce B]

I love it....Well done Don

Ditto... !!

 

[treitz3]

If this is what is on your mind when you post, you should post more Don! Quite the chuckle from over here...

Tom

 

[garylkoh]

People like to help each other, and do not like it when their help is questioned. Beliefs enter into it, people get riled, conversation degenerates.

Example:

A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B. I do not see how a pet rock can do any of that. Have you measured the system?
A: Why would I care about measurements? I can hear it!
B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.
A: I don't need some test, I can tell it works! And I just had my friend over and he heard it too so there!
B: That's ridiculous you are both nuts. I'm just trying to save you money.
A: OK, I found an article by the Pet Rock Sound chief engineer. I do't understand it, but he says it aligns the molecular flow of the universe inside my room and that's why it works.
B: Sounds like marketing. What measurements did they take?
A: There's a graph, it shows ripples in the force without the Pet Rock that are gone when it is added. Happy now?
B: No, that is meaningless. You are all mad.
A: Well, prove it! Measure the molecular flow with and without a Pet Rock and see the difference! Then you can see and show us all why it works.
B: That is nuts and I don't have anything like that kind of equipment.
A: Then you can't prove it doesn't work! You're a geek with no ears!
B: You have so much expectation bias it is running out of your ears. No wonder you think you hear something.
A; Snooty objectivist scumbag.
B: Ignorant gullible subjectivist.
<Thread closed>

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE! No relation to any actual people, audio systems, or Pet Rocks is implied. No Pet Rocks were harmed in the making of this post.

Many thanks, Don. You made my day - a Monday yet - with two disasters. I think that I can now shut down, and go home and forget today ever happened.... except for this

 

[puroagave]

Mike,

There's a big difference between "stirring up the pot" and posting remarks that have caused numerous threads to be closed by the moderators.

I think reasonable people would agree that this happens quite often on this forum (not to mention the stress that it causes the moderators) and that there's got to be a better way.

But then, maybe I'm wrong.

GG

self-moderation works for me (almost always). I've seen this time and time again on many forums besides this one, posters feel compelled to respond immediately (usually within minutes) it then escalates rapidly into innuendo, and gets personal. There are many posts in which I bite my tongue and abstain from commenting, despite my best efforts I cant always refrain and say (write) more than necessary. the best cure is to push yourself away from your pc/smart device and take a break from the forum for the rest of the day or as long as necessary.

 

[Steve williams]

Many thanks, Don. You made my day - a Monday yet - with two disasters. I think that I can now shut down, and go home and forget today ever happened.... except for this

My day as well but last I looked it was Tuesday

 

[treitz3]

The monitor.

Good evening, members of the WBF. Just a few thoughts on my mind this evening. Perhaps it may invoke a few thoughts of your own.

Do you ever stop to think who is on the other side of the monitor? Do you always remember that it is a breathing human being? When you post in a community such as ours, do you consider how your words (Which reflect the image as well as reputation of the WBF, BTW) might be taken by others? Do you care? Well, you should.

When someone posts a question/statement that you or maybe even others may consider completely out of whack, rude or even circular in nature, does your own response add to the problem? Or, might you go out of our way to help turn a negative into a positive? As WBF members, we should. The What's Best Forum should include the what's best on constructive (not destructive) and polite, cordial posting. Does being right but humiliating/attacking/poking/saying the same thing over and over, being rude, argumentative, targeting someone personally and launching the arrows of war somehow magically prove to others that you are even more right?

Do you imagine that people are watching and thinking how smart you are?

Do you stop to think how that person on the other side of the monitor feels?

Do you ever stop to think what other members think about your actions as an educated adult posting in the style you do?

I have heard people relay that if someone posts something stupid, rude or circular in nature, they deserve whatever they get as a response. Seriously? Have you ever once considered that you have no clue what is going on in their lives? Perhaps they are completely alone in life and they’re just looking for some attention. Maybe our response can show them a better way through our own example....(hint). Quality and kindness over quantity will always benefit those involved within our community.

Have we considered that they may be extremely depressed and are acting out? Could your response make a difference, not just for the individual, but for the community as a whole? We don’t know what is going on in their lives, but as in any community, we know that right now, in this moment, we are all dealing with our own personal issues.

......

Right now, someone is trying to deal with a loss of a loved one. Someone else may be dealing with extensive financial difficulties or has been burned so many times that they choose to hurt others before someone can hurt them. They may even be considering taking their own life. We simply don’t know.

One thing we know for sure, on the other side of the monitor is a human being.

Am I asking that you be “nice” to those who you honestly feel don’t deserve it?

Nope.

I am simply suggesting that you might kindly consider if your own response(s) helps or hurts the community as a whole. Perhaps you can make a difference in someone’s life today, just by responding in a manner that considers the aforementioned.......

Please allow me to share something with the members of the forum. I recently found this and thought some of you may enjoy it;

An old Cherokee told his grandson,

"My son, there is a battle between two wolves inside us all.

One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.

The other is good. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth".

The boy thought about it and asked, "Grandfather, which wolf wins?".

The old man quietly replied, "The one you feed."

FWIW

Tom

 

[zztop7]

. No Pet Rocks were harmed in the making of this post.

Forensic analysts should be called in to verify that the Pet Rocks were truly not harmed.


zz.

 

[garylkoh]

My day as well but last I looked it was Tuesday

It was a bad day today.....

 

[FrantzM]

Good evening, members of the WBF. Just a few thoughts on my mind this evening. Perhaps it may invoke a few thoughts of your own.

Do you ever stop to think who is on the other side of the monitor? Do you always remember that it is a breathing human being? When you post in a community such as ours, do you consider how your words (Which reflect the image as well as reputation of the WBF, BTW) might be taken by others? Do you care? Well, you should.

When someone posts a question/statement that you or maybe even others may consider completely out of whack, rude or even circular in nature, does your own response add to the problem? Or, might you go out of our way to help turn a negative into a positive? As WBF members, we should. The What's Best Forum should include the what's best on constructive (not destructive) and polite, cordial posting. Does being right but humiliating/attacking/poking/saying the same thing over and over, being rude, argumentative, targeting someone personally and launching the arrows of war somehow magically prove to others that you are even more right?

Do you imagine that people are watching and thinking how smart you are?

Do you stop to think how that person on the other side of the monitor feels?

Do you ever stop to think what other members think about your actions as an educated adult posting in the style you do?

I have heard people relay that if someone posts something stupid, rude or circular in nature, they deserve whatever they get as a response. Seriously? Have you ever once considered that you have no clue what is going on in their lives? Perhaps they are completely alone in life and they’re just looking for some attention. Maybe our response can show them a better way through our own example....(hint). Quality and kindness over quantity will always benefit those involved within our community.

Have we considered that they may be extremely depressed and are acting out? Could your response make a difference, not just for the individual, but for the community as a whole? We don’t know what is going on in their lives, but as in any community, we know that right now, in this moment, we are all dealing with our own personal issues.

......

Right now, someone is trying to deal with a loss of a loved one. Someone else may be dealing with extensive financial difficulties or has been burned so many times that they choose to hurt others before someone can hurt them. They may even be considering taking their own life. We simply don’t know.

One thing we know for sure, on the other side of the monitor is a human being.

Am I asking that you be “nice” to those who you honestly feel don’t deserve it?

Nope.

I am simply suggesting that you might kindly consider if your own response(s) helps or hurts the community as a whole. Perhaps you can make a difference in someone’s life today, just by responding in a manner that considers the aforementioned.......

Please allow me to share something with the members of the forum. I recently found this and thought some of you may enjoy it;



FWIW

Tom

Thanks Tom

Great Post!!