Would you feel qualified having never been behind the wheel (or even seen one for that matter) to comment on the performance of a Mercedes? Or that one car is superior to another simply because it can go from 0-60 faster? Same thing goes for audio equipment. And for that matter having listened to it in your system, not at an audio show, not at a friends, nor at a dealer.
Not just the hobby, but here as well. The opinions of those with gear that doesn't measure up in financial terms are mostly just ignored. You see, it's not about the pleasure something gives you, but rather how high up on the tree you can p!ss.
Not just the hobby, but here as well. The opinions of those with gear that doesn't measure up in financial terms are mostly just ignored. You see, it's not about the pleasure something gives you, but rather how high up on the tree you can p!ss.
Really John? Hardly. We all started out with humble beginnings; my present system has been pieced together over 35 years. No the difference is that when I was younger and a noob in the hobby, I went around to a lot of systems of all levels and learned from each of them. I didn't know it all and still don't. But I heard what the great audio systems could do as far as music reproduction and understood what say HP was talking about when he wrote a review. That's because HP could hear it on his system and I couldn't on my system (s) at the time. But I didn't **** on the equipment or was jealous back then. And there's a lot of that going on here!
You know what? The best audio systems can every once in a while suspend disbelief. That's why people strive for the best gear, not elitism. Why don't you take a poll here and see how many concerts on average the subs vs. the obs attend a year. Oughta tell you something. Me, I try to get to one concert of different musical genres every week.
Not just the hobby, but here as well. The opinions of those with gear that doesn't measure up in financial terms are mostly just ignored. You see, it's not about the pleasure something gives you, but rather how high up on the tree you can p!ss.
I can not see how you feel this. Not long ago we had a participated thread about your system (22 pages) http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1161-My-humble-2CH-room!, that I think most of us really enjoyed. IMHO positive and encouraging constructive opinions are not financially weighted, but unfortunately many times the argument "everything competently designed sounds the same and the difference is individual preference" appears mixed with financial arguments. IMHO synergy is important irrespective of system cost!
At times, I find that the discussions get so obtuse and rationally incomprehensible that I have to scratch my "going bald" head and ask why.
Other perspectives?
It might help in understanding why things go south on this forum and get fractionalized / personal when there is no need / purpose for that to occur. And it ends up being counter productive to the original discussion at hand.
And yes, I admit I have been guilty as charged from time to time.
Hey the dude Is that a name that eminates from The Big Lebowski? I like it!
Anyways, maybe back OT since I am quoting your OP. Having served as a Super Mod here for a spell, I tried to steer people to post about the topic and not about the poster. At the admin level of this forum I can assure you that Steve, Amir, Lee (hey, where is Lee?), Mr. T and I desired this at least as much as, if not more than, any other goal. Nevertheless some (all?) of us stray from time to time. But to the extent we stay on track, we are all the better for it. As you wrote, "there is no need / purpose for that to occur."
We all have different degrees of self-awareness. Maybe we need to create the equivalent of a 12-step program for members to get out of their own skin and recognize their own boundaries. Diversity leads to enlightenment.
And that carries zip weight to anyone who has heard the equipment in their system. Otherwise reviewers could just pop in anywhere and review the equipment.
So you are actually telling us you can set up gear in an hour and get the same out of it as someone that has spent two months carefully tuning that gear to sound it's best. I need to pull up my pants because it's too late to save my shoes. Puhleze! Now we're talking snake oil.
Now please let all of us idiots know how much the average audiophile actually hears. You've heard more than an average audiophile hears in a lifetime. What audiophiles do you know? I'm really curious where you got your statistics from. Certainly not based on the audiophiles on this board. Now that's elitist.
No Myles, I'm telling you that, among other things, I worked in the business for two years and I moved components, wire and speakers in and out of systems I listened to every day all the time. Well, that's one of the things I'm telling you, the other is that your dismissal of my experience is little more than a weak excuse to dismiss my point of view. That has been obvious for a long, long time. You're probably one of the few who doesn't get it.
What high-end gear Tim? What were the brands carried and what part of their product line did those brands represent? Some stores that mainly cater to home theater have some decent brands in the store, but they are mainly selling receivers, CD players, TVs, and speakers. Even when they carry speakers like Martin Logan, they seldom carry anything but the bottom of the range. Even the store that I bought my Def Tech speakers from which sold very expensive TVs and nice receivers didn't carry my Def Tech BP7000SC speakers even though they stocked the cheaper part of the line and my speakers only retailed for $5400. It's all relative.
No Myles, I'm telling you that, among other things, I worked in the business for two years and I moved components, wire and speakers in and out of systems I listened to every day all the time. Well, that's one of the things I'm telling you, the other is that your dismissal of my experience is little more than a weak excuse to dismiss my point of view. That has been obvious for a long, long time. You're probably one of the few who doesn't get it.
Agreed. Folks, Steve asked for this thread to stay on topic. Please show him respect by doing so.
Also, the conversations have tilted toward jabs and not so polite rebuttals. This isn't the goal of the forum. If you feel the need to argue, do it in a PM or simply do not say anything. There is absolutely no need to belittle anybody for any reason on this forum.
The opinions of those with gear that doesn't measure up in financial terms are mostly just ignored. You see, it's not about the pleasure something gives you, but rather how high up on the tree you can p!ss.
People come to forums for various reasons: some to argue, some to feel important, some to share and discuss experiences, some to shape ideas, etc., or a combination of above.
Since this is a hobby, my advice is just to completely ignore those whose comments get on your nerves. Why read stuff that aggravates and causes stress? Life is too short.
My take-away from the hours spent reading and posting on WBF, and to my mind an important and valuable return on the investment of my time is that I understand and appreciate how polarized the people in this hobby is. As a result, I design for and sell to music lovers - people who enjoy music.
I've walked away from customers, I've stopped dealing with some dealers, I've dropped products that are targeted at the audience that I do not resonate with, and I am much happier as a result. I almost never talk about specifications, I talk about the requirements of music. Not that I don't understand the technical requirements of what it takes to reproduce music, but I understand that there are things that I don't know that I don't know. I understand that there is a universe of people who know everything there is to know about music reproduction. To those, I tip my hat. I am not as enlightened as you are and would not dare contradict anything you say.
My take-away from the hours spent reading and posting on WBF, and to my mind an important and valuable return on the investment of my time is that I understand and appreciate how polarized the people in this hobby is. As a result, I design for and sell to music lovers - people who enjoy music.
I've walked away from customers, I've stopped dealing with some dealers, I've dropped products that are targeted at the audience that I do not resonate with, and I am much happier as a result. I almost never talk about specifications, I talk about the requirements of music. Not that I don't understand the technical requirements of what it takes to reproduce music, but I understand that there are things that I don't know that I don't know. I understand that there is a universe of people who know everything there is to know about music reproduction. To those, I tip my hat. I am not as enlightened as you are and would not dare contradict anything you say.
My take-away from the hours spent reading and posting on WBF, and to my mind an important and valuable return on the investment of my time is that I understand and appreciate how polarized the people in this hobby is. As a result, I design for and sell to music lovers - people who enjoy music.
I've walked away from customers, I've stopped dealing with some dealers, I've dropped products that are targeted at the audience that I do not resonate with, and I am much happier as a result. I almost never talk about specifications, I talk about the requirements of music. Not that I don't understand the technical requirements of what it takes to reproduce music, but I understand that there are things that I don't know that I don't know. I understand that there is a universe of people who know everything there is to know about music reproduction. To those, I tip my hat. I am not as enlightened as you are and would not dare contradict anything you say.
why are a higher percentage of threads more polarized on WBF than most High End Forums? even though many times the same topics get churned over again and again with neither side almost never giving in even a little.
without judging the right or wrong of it, there are more active objectivists as a percentage on WBF than is typical on other High End audio forums I'm familiar with, and those objectivists are quite active and seem to enjoy extending discussions. some of the objectivists followed the founders to WBF from AVS, and then the founders of AVS invited some 'experts' to participate and brought that perspective here.
many times on other forums objectivists get ignored or marginalized and are simply not attracted to those forums as much, and objectivists don't intrude as often or to the same effect. I think since there are enough objectivists on WBF to have some mutual support that this results in the objectivist perspective to remain strong here. and there are quite a few people who 'go both ways' depending on the subject.
I do think that there is a healthy aspect to this issue and it does stimulate a more overall balance to the viewpoints if also causing more angst and aimless meandering and polarization in the process. I also think it puts a damper on some aspects of listening viewpoints from time to time. I have my reservations about some aspects of WBF (not wholely related to the objectivist issue) but I know making everyone happy is impossible. I recently decided to sit out for almost 6 months after getting tired of some things. I came back because it was time for me to do that.
I disagree, the UK forums hifiwigwam and especially Pink Fish Media are massively flooded with so-called objectivists, and most of them inexperienced. You have people with basic 100 pounds hifi regusing to upgrade and challenging everyone who says a cable makes a difference. I find WBF extremely friendly in that regard, there are maybe 4 characters here who keep touting measurements all the time. On the UK forum, seldom have I seen anyone admit to having tried a tweak - he will be drawn and quartered.
On Audiogon I find that the some sales people jump on to the chat immediately. The WBF really encourages experiments, the only flaw I find with the website is that there are more people here who think expensive is best than on other forums.
I disagree, the UK forums hifiwigwam and especially Pink Fish Media are massively flooded with so-called objectivists, and most of them inexperienced. You have people with basic 100 pounds hifi regusing to upgrade and challenging everyone who says a cable makes a difference. I find WBF extremely friendly in that regard, there are maybe 4 characters here who keep touting measurements all the time. On the UK forum, seldom have I seen anyone admit to having tried a tweak - he will be drawn and quartered.
On Audiogon I find that the some sales people jump on to the chat immediately. The WBF really encourages experiments, the only flaw I find with the website is that there are more people here who think expensive is best than on other forums.
please note that I qualified my comments with 'other forums I'm familiar with'......I know of hifiwigwam and Pink Fish Media and I've been pointed to negative comments about myself from those forums....but am not really familiar with their cultures. I know there is one forum out there which has bylaws that prevent/restrict any listening claims not scientifically proven based on their view on what that means. as I also said, I do view the landscape at WBF as relatively healthy in balance.
I think we have a very health ecosystem here. I really enjoy the "entertainment" factor of some of the threads. When it gets down and dirty here the moderators step in gently and re-guide the threads.
I spend time here to take a break from it all and connect with likeminded folks. Why critique the purpose of the board and your ROI? It's an individual thing, some are here for knowledge, some for challenge, some for fun, some for debating. It's all good. Threads like this have zero purpose in my humble opinion.
