Time spent blogging on WBF and ROI
- Thread starter thedudeabides
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Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
this is the fundamental, underlying issue between objectivists and subjective listeners. always has been, and always will be. i've dealt with this for 15 years i've discussed high end audio on the web.
i not yet had a person leave my room still carrying their objectivist credentials in tact.
yet, asking for 'leaps of faith' from an objectivist is not ever going to happen either. and since they know they are right, they have no need to investigate.
so here we are together.
Point of View
Unless I am missing some context here, these are the type of comments that start the pot boiling. Reading the comment this refers too I took it to mean that the poster has actually determined that the people who are disagreeing with his position have admitted that they haven't heard either the system or the equipment being spoken about i.e. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
To me these debates are pretty silly but without them I guess these board wouldn't exist. I can't understand why conversations can't go this way;
Visitor; "What are the distortion measurements of your obviously inferior measuring SET amplifier"
Me; "Have no clue, you are welcome to measure them if you wish, but in the mean time have some bourbon and tell me what you think of this new Barney Wilen LP"
Instead of worrying about this trivial stuff we need to tackle the the serious issues in audio like, red or white with classical music, and whether the lights need to be off in order to enjoy the music.
Unless I am missing some context here, these are the type of comments that start the pot boiling. Reading the comment this refers too I took it to mean that the poster has actually determined that the people who are disagreeing with his position have admitted that they haven't heard either the system or the equipment being spoken about i.e. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
To me these debates are pretty silly but without them I guess these board wouldn't exist. I can't understand why conversations can't go this way;
Visitor; "What are the distortion measurements of your obviously inferior measuring SET amplifier"
Me; "Have no clue, you are welcome to measure them if you wish, but in the mean time have some bourbon and tell me what you think of this new Barney Wilen LP"
Instead of worrying about this trivial stuff we need to tackle the the serious issues in audio like, red or white with classical music, and whether the lights need to be off in order to enjoy the music.
People may have something to offer even if they have not heard the gear.
Much of the gear is very difficult to hear simply because it is not available at any local dealer, or perhaps not even in their country.
The definition of "best" varies among people.
I am pursuing the best I can afford, and what I feel performs best for me, realizing it is far beneath the status of most of the gear described here. The attitude that I am not worthy because my gear and tastes are not good enough for WBF is part of what keeps me from posting much anymore. Gives me more time to practice the real thing anyway.
yes you are missing some context here. This -- that those who believe in measurements and reject the superiority of high-end conventional wisdoms haven't heard good audio, don't have credible audio experience is one of the standard contexts around here.
Don-I'm pretty sure that the statement that jap posted is more about those people who don't believe in the high-end and feel the need to comment negatively on gear they have never heard. You are not close to being in that spectrum.
Non-sadly, I don't believe that is true in general around here and I think Don took a comment out of context which I commented on as well.
I sold the stuff for a couple years. I heard what we carried. I heard what was brought in by reps and very carefully set up to impress. I heard what was demonstrated at seminars. I heard more high end outside of a trade show context, in those two years than most audiophiles hear in a lifetime. And this argument -- the illegitimacy of my opinion due to a lack of high end experience -- has been repeatedly used to dismiss my POV. it's not the experience, or lack thereof, that brings out this argument, it is the POV, and the inability of some who don't share it to believe that anyone could possibly disagree with them from a foundation of knowledge and experience.
And that carries zip weight to anyone who has heard the equipment in their system. Otherwise reviewers could just pop in anywhere and review the equipment.
So you are actually telling us you can set up gear in an hour and get the same out of it as someone that has spent two months carefully tuning that gear to sound it's best. I need to pull up my pants because it's too late to save my shoes. Puhleze! Now we're talking snake oil.
Now please let all of us idiots know how much the average audiophile actually hears. You've heard more than an average audiophile hears in a lifetime. What audiophiles do you know? I'm really curious where you got your statistics from. Certainly not based on the audiophiles on this board. Now that's elitist.
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What high-end gear Tim? What were the brands carried and what part of their product line did those brands represent? Some stores that mainly cater to home theater have some decent brands in the store, but they are mainly selling receivers, CD players, TVs, and speakers. Even when they carry speakers like Martin Logan, they seldom carry anything but the bottom of the range. Even the store that I bought my Def Tech speakers from which sold very expensive TVs and nice receivers didn't carry my Def Tech BP7000SC speakers even though they stocked the cheaper part of the line and my speakers only retailed for $5400. It's all relative.
Tim,
As vague as ever. No names, no models, no systems - just stuff. BTW, quantity is not quality. I am sure that you have listened to some excellent systems. Why always referring the negatives and never giving extensive details of the best you have listened?
when Tim first visited WBF i confronted him strongly on exactly your point......when he kept insisting he knew exactly what high level vinyl performance was....yet knew nothing about any specific gear. i went too far in my insistance that he name names, and then i backed off and apologized. since then he has been somewhat less insistant with his claims of experience, while continuing to infer the same claims in a round-a-bout way.
i give him credit for navigating the slippery slope of being careful not to cross the line of claiming too much in his own elegant way.
we must choose our battles, this one is simply not worth fighting about.
Tim visits and knows the sound of his friend's system but can never remember the component's names especially the turntable.. What am I missing? It's like an episode of Law and Order. Your honor they opened the line of questioning.
This was a very bold statement to make without backing it up with names and model numbers:
First of all, new gear doesn't come and go that many times a year in a store. Stores carry limited brands and limited depth of lines. In two years, you might have seen a new line up of models from the manufacturers you carried once, maybe twice. Go to one trade show like RMAF and you will see and hear more high-end gear in several days than you would in a life time at Joe's Home Theater Emporium.
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