Tips for ABX Tests

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Gregadd

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Apr 20, 2010
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Tips
1. Never take an ABX test.
2. Go back to Tip 1. and follow that advice.
3. For some reason you failed to follow Tips 1 and 2. You might want to check on what happened to Michael Fremer he successfully negotiated an amplifier test.
4. Even if you have publicly accepted an ABX challenge it's not to late to get out. yes you'll take some flack for withdrawing. The challenger will claim you knew you were wrong and the test would expose it. Not to worry they would not respect you or support your position anyway.
Get out now before it's to late!

OK Tough Guy you are hell bent on proceeding with the test.

5. It is essential you have the negative position. When you obtain the statistically insignificant results you can claim they failed. Make them prove there is no audible difference between cables. Don't let them suck you into proving there is a difference.
If you can't do that withdraw from the test.
6. Don't let the test become personal. Make them prove that there is no audible difference. Don't fall into the trap of proving you can't hear a difference.
7. Don't let the challenger design or conduct the test. The reasons for that should be obvios. Remember despite what they say they want you to fail
8. Demand to know all the details in advance. The only thing that shoud be secret is the identiy of x during the test. If they try to switch anything on the day test don't let them
9. Practice, practice, practice. Make sure that the characteristic you claim exist are actually present in device A and not present in device B. in the music to be played after levels have been matched.
10. Call thier bluff. That's how you get here in the first place. Take every advantage they offer. Make sure it is infact an advantage.
11 Don't guess. You have already identified the chahracteristics you are looking for. Take your time and locate them
 
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You demand the impossible, so we can tell what your advice is worth.

It is literally impossible to "prove no difference". The only thing that can be proven is that "in this test, no difference was detected, to a probability value of 'x'".

That is all that is ever available in any test that is falsifiable.

Tests that are not falsifiable are not part of the scientific method.
 
You demand the impossible, so we can tell what your advice is worth.

It is literally impossible to "prove no difference". The only thing that can be proven is that "in this test, no difference was detected, to a probability value of 'x'".

That is all that is ever available in any test that is falsifiable.

Tests that are not falsifiable are not part of the scientific method.

Do these tactics actually work for you?

You assign a position to me I never took. Then you offer a cursory defense.
 
yes ou can prove the negative. you need only ask the person do you hear a difference between A and B. If they don't they can honestly answer No If you are concerned about bias do it blind bias here I have presented articles on proving the negative and on proving the null hypothesis
 
Hello Gregadd

Pssst Your backing the wrong horse.

yes ou can prove the negative.

Maybe in layman's terms not in Scientific terms. There's a difference that has been explained in the previous posts if you take the time to read them and think about it.

Rob:)
 
Hello Gregadd

Pssst Your backing the wrong horse.



Maybe in layman's terms not in Scientific terms. There's a difference that has been explained in the previous posts if you take the time to read them and think about it.

Rob:)

When it comes to proof I am somewhat of an expert. 30 years experience as a criminal defense lawyer.

Read this http://departments.bloomu.edu/philos...eanegative.pdf been useful.

posted in my thread On proving the negative.http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3909-On-proving-the-negative&highlight=proving+negative

Now you go back nd read number 4. If a precondition cannot be met don't take the test
 
When it comes to proof I am somewhat of an expert. 30 years experience as a criminal defense lawyer.

The jury decides how good the "proof" is and that comes from the prosecution. On your end it's to cause reasonable doubt and find holes in their case which they put together. Absolutely none of this has anything to do with what JJ is talking about. You trying to use the reasonable doubt tactics here on the forum??

Rob:)
 
For some reason you ignored the article on proving the negative.
you have heard of summary judgment, and judgement of acquittal? You do know what forensic evidence and an affirmative defense is? Yes I have a degree in math and some background in scientific proof.

After reading the article do you still maintain you can't prove the negative?. Are you aware that absolute innocence can be proved with DNA to a judge years after the jury is gone?
 
Different occupations have different requirements that's the point. What's acceptable in your profession may not be in another discipline. You may be an expert in your profession but that doesn't help you understanding what's required in other professions. You are trying to use your book of rules where they don't apply. Kind of like Baseball vs. Football. All I am suggesting is think outside of your box.

Rob:)
 
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I would have to agree with Greg's first and second points. I have never understood how people equate ABX and double blind audio tests to scientific tests. My wife has had over $30M of NIH grants doing double blind, peer reviewed studies. She never relies on the patient determining by how they feel the success or failure of an outcome. "I can definitely feel that the disease is worse, or I have or do not have disease before or after the treatment." This is crazy stuff. Scientists actually measure the blood level of a chemical in the body, or the change in the size of a tumor. The study of the brain has advanced to the degree that one can measure activity in the pleasure and pain centers to see what is happening and whether one stimulus has more or less effect than another, independent of what the verbal response of the subject is. One does not put psychological pressure on the patient to determine whether their tumor has gotten smaller. These tests are not free, but they can, given sufficient sample sizes, give clear answers to whatever levels of probability one wants.

My experience with "golden ears" who can tell the difference between A and B with high precision, and I have been able to do it, is that they usually are able to hear something - it may be musical or amusical - in A that they do not hear in B. Once they hear that characteristic, they easily can hear the difference between A and B, all the time. Listeners who do not hear that, say there is no difference, but once they have been shown what to listen for, it becomes easy for them to hear it also. I liken it to the old puzzles in the funny papers which show two seemingly identical pictures and one is asked to identify the differences. At first look, the pictures do look identical, but as one explores, one can see more and more differences. Perhaps you can see 8 of the differences and are told there are 10 differences. However, you spend a long time and cannot find more than the eight. Someone finally points out the other two differences, and then you can immediately see them, and if you go back and look again, you will see them without difficulty. However, this ability to see (or hear) differences probably has little or no consequence or whether picture A or picture B gives you more pleasure.

Larry
 
Thanks Larry
 
You demand the impossible, so we can tell what your advice is worth.

It is literally impossible to "prove no difference". The only thing that can be proven is that "in this test, no difference was detected, to a probability value of 'x'".

That is all that is ever available in any test that is falsifiable.

Tests that are not falsifiable are not part of the scientific method.
I'll make this reason 4a bit to take an ADX.
 
yes ou can prove the negative. you need only ask the person do you hear a difference between A and B. If they don't they can honestly answer No If you are concerned about bias do it blind bias here I have presented articles on proving the negative and on proving the null hypothesis

One can never prove the universal negative. If you claim otherwise, you have upset all of modern philosophy.

I doubt that.
 
When it comes to proof I am somewhat of an expert. 30 years experience as a criminal defense lawyer.

Read this http://departments.bloomu.edu/philos...eanegative.pdf been useful.

posted in my thread On proving the negative.http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3909-On-proving-the-negative&highlight=proving+negative

Now you go back nd read number 4. If a precondition cannot be met don't take the test

This shows nothing more or less than how poorly the legal profession understands science. Tell you what, you stick to your field, ok?
 
Larry,

Your article, as far as Audio DBT or ABX is concerned, is completely inaccurate. Discussing how one feels, despite what you suggest, has nothing to do with a standard threshold test in audio. Nothing. "This is crazy stuff", coupled with your assumption of professional credentials, is both inappropriate and inaccurate, and I am asking that you fully and completely retract that unwarranted, defamatory attack on the professional standing of many recognized scientists in the field (myself included), immediately and without qualification. Your presumption of psychological pressure is exactly opposite any reasonable test protocol for threshold of audibility testing, and would constitute a serious violation of the blinding of the test to boot, even if the identity of an unknown was not exposed.

I will agree, good tests are anything but "free", they are tricky to execute, hard to run, and require great care. They are not to be causally attempted except, maybe, by the extremely experienced, and even then, with great caution.

Your second paragraph assumes that a primary requirement for any psychoacoustic test has been omitted, specifically the need for training and expertise in the actual effect being listened for. That is exactly what pointing out differences in a photograph are, training to find those differences. The same process must be done with audio stimuli, it's not an option.

Your straw-man model of an audio DBT reads like a horrible example of how not to run a test. Probably somebody's done something like that, after all, somebody's done most anything that can be done wrong, wrong.

That does not indict the science involved. If you know of people running that sort of test, please ask them to start with the ITU standard BS1116 (to which I have had some small contributions) and its revisions for some wise advice. They, as well as you or your expert who incorrectly dismisses formal DBT's as "crazy stuff" should start here: http://www.itu.int/rec/r-rec-bs.1116-1-199710-i/e

Harvey Fletcher, Stevens, Zwicker, Helman, Greenwood, Zwislocki, Hall, Allen, the MPEG_Audio committee (despite some lapses, which require a discussion of standards politics not appropriate for here), the BBC, the CRC, Deutsch Telecom, and many other individuals, myself included, have run audio DBT's or their cognates that are scientifically recognized, published, and in fact that represent the basics of audiology as well as psychoacoustics and the understanding of cochlear operation (which is certainly not yet complete). Your dismissal of the entire, recognized, peer-reviewed, well-published field, which is what your article mistakenly does, is inappropriate and frankly insulting to many individuals, living and dead, who have spent their time studying human hearing, its function, pathology, and the like, and I'll thank you to retract it.
 
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Some Readings on the subject of hearing and testing:

"Speech and Hearing in Communication" By Harvey Fletcher, the ASA Edition, ISBN 1-56396-393-0 (Yes, that book resides next to my computer.)
http://my.safaribooksonline.com/boo...ten-determination-of-loudness/zwickers_method (n.b. most of his work is in German and no longer available)
"Psychoacoustics" by S. S. Stevens

There are many articles on various DBT and signal-detection methods (which include a blinded unknown by a computer) for testing hearing in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.
I doubt I'll find anything by Fechner, that goes back a ways.

http://srmo.sagepub.com/view/the-sage-encyclopedia-of-social-science-research-methods/n257.xml is a pointer to some stuff behind a paywall (grr).

You can readily establish the existence of various kinds of DBT's for auditory stimuli in many highest-quality refereed journals.

So, let's not have this "crazy stuff" obscenity any long.
 
This shows nothing more or less than how poorly the legal profession understands science. Tell you what, you stick to your field, ok?

We are excellent at detecting B.S.
 
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One can never prove the universal negative. If you claim otherwise, you have upset all of modern philosophy.

I doubt that.
THINKING TOOLS: YOU CAN PROVE A NEGATIVE
Steven D. Hales
Thinking Tools is a regular feature that introduces tips and pointers on thinking clearly and rigorously.
A principle of folk logic is that one can’t prove a negative. Dr. Nelson L. Price, a Georgia minister, writes on his website that ‘one of the laws of logic is that you can’t prove a negative.’ Julian Noble, a physicist at the University of Virginia, agrees, writing in his ‘Electric Blanket of Doom’ talk that ‘we can’t prove a negative proposition.’ University of California at Berkeley Professor of Epidemiology Patricia Buffler asserts that ‘The reality is that we can never prove the negative, we can never prove the lack of effect, we can never prove that something is safe.’ A quick search on Google or Lexis-Nexis will give a mountain of similar examples.
But there is one big, fat problem with all this. Among professional logicians, guess how many think that you can’t prove a negative? That’s right: zero. Yes, Virginia, you can prove a negative, and it’s easy, too. For one thing, a real, actual law of logic is a negative, namely the law of non-contradiction. This law states that that a proposition cannot be both true and not true. Nothing is both true and false. Furthermore, you can prove this law. It can be formally derived from the empty set using provably valid rules of inference. (I’ll spare you the boring details). One of the laws of logic is a provable negative. Wait… this means we’ve just proven that it is not the case that one of the laws of logic is that you can’t prove a negative. So we’ve proven yet another negative! In fact, ‘you can’t prove a negative’ is a negative ? so if you could prove it true, it wouldn’t be true! Uh-oh.
Not only that, but any claim can be expressed as a negative, thanks to the rule of double negation. This rule states that any proposition P is logically equivalent to not-not-P. So pick anything you think you can prove. Think you can prove your own existence? At least to your own satisfaction? Then, using the exact same reasoning, plus the little step of double negation,
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you can prove that you aren’t nonexistent. Congratulations, you’ve just proven a negative. The beautiful part is that you can do this trick with absolutely any proposition whatsoever. Prove P is true and you can prove that P is not false.
Some people seem to think that you can’t prove a specific sort of negative claim, namely that a thing does not exist. So it is impossible to prove that Santa Claus, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, God, pink elephants, WMD in Iraq, and Bigfoot don’t exist. Of course, this rather depends on what one has in mind by ‘prove.’ Can you construct a valid deductive argument with all true premises that yields the conclusion that there are no unicorns? Sure. Here’s one, using the valid inference procedure of modus tollens:
1. If unicorns had existed, then there is evidence in the fossil record.
2. There is no evidence of unicorns in the fossil record.
3. Therefore, unicorns never existed.
Someone might object that that was a bit too fast ? after all, I didn’t prove that the two premises were true. I just asserted that they were true. Well, that’s right. However, it would be a grievous mistake to insist that someone prove all the premises of any argument they might give. Here’s why. The only way to prove, say, that there is no evidence of unicorns in the fossil record, is by giving an argument to that conclusion. Of course one would then have to prove the premises of that argument by giving further arguments, and then prove the premises of those further arguments, ad infinitum. Which premises we should take on credit and which need payment up front is a matter of long and involved debate among epistemologists. But one thing is certain: if proving things requires that an infinite number of premises get proved first, we’re not going to prove much of anything at all, positive or negative.
Maybe people mean that no inductive argument will conclusively, indubitably prove a negative proposition beyond all shadow of a doubt. For example, suppose someone argues
Hales Thinking tools
Think summer 2005 • 111
that we’ve scoured the world for Bigfoot, found no credible evidence of Bigfoot’s existence, and therefore there is no Bigfoot. A classic inductive argument. A Sasquatch defender can always rejoin that Bigfoot is reclusive, and might just be hiding in that next stand of trees. You can’t prove he’s not! (until the search of that tree stand comes up empty too). The problem here isn’t that inductive arguments won’t give us certainty about negative claims (like the nonexistence of Bigfoot), but that inductive arguments won’t give us certainty about anything at all, positive or negative. All observed swans are white, therefore all swans are white looked like a pretty good inductive argument until black swans were discovered in Australia.
The very nature of an inductive argument is to make a conclusion probable, but not certain, given the truth of the premises. That just what an inductive argument is. We’d better not dismiss induction because we’re not getting certainty out of it, though. Why do you think that the sun will rise tomorrow? Not because of observation (you can’t observe the future!), but because that’s what it has always done in the past. Why do you think that if you turn on the kitchen tap that water will come out instead of chocolate? Why do you think you’ll find your house where you last left it? Why do you think lunch will be nourishing instead of deadly? Again, because that’s the way things have always been in the past. In other words, we use inferences — induction — from past experiences in every aspect of our lives. As Bertrand Russell pointed out, the chicken who expects to be fed when he sees the farmer approaching, since that is what had always happened in the past, is in for a big surprise when instead of receiving dinner, he becomes dinner. But if the chicken had rejected inductive reasoning altogether, then every appearance of the farmer would be a surprise.
So why is it that people insist that you can’t prove a negative? I think it is the result of two things. (1) an acknowledgement that induction is not bulletproof, airtight, and infallible, and (2) a desperate desire to keep believing whatever one believes, even if all the evidence is against it. That’s why people keep
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believing in alien abductions, even when flying saucers always turn out to be weather balloons, stealth jets, comets, or too much alcohol. You can’t prove a negative! You can’t prove that there are no alien abductions! Meaning: your argument against aliens is inductive, therefore not incontrovertible, and since I want to believe in aliens, I’m going to dismiss the argument no matter how overwhelming the evidence against aliens, and no matter how vanishingly small the chance of extraterrestrial abduction.
If we’re going to dismiss inductive arguments because they produce conclusions that are probable but not definite, then we are in deep doo-doo. Despite its fallibility, induction is vital in every aspect of our lives, from the mundane to the most sophisticated science. Without induction we know basically nothing about the world apart from our own immediate perceptions. So we’d better keep induction, warts and all, and use it to form negative beliefs as well as positive ones. You can prove a negative — at least as much as you can prove anything at all.
Steven Hales is professor of philosophy at Bloomsburg University, Pennsylvania.
 
in case you don't want to read all that "
"But there is one big, fat problem with all this. Among professional logicians, guess how many think that you can’t prove a negative? That’s right: zero. Yes, Virginia, you can prove a negative, and it’s easy, too."
 
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