Tweaks : A sensible investment or a waste of money?

Barry2013

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It's interesting how this thread has revealed differing interpretations of what constitutes a tweak and what doesn't.
The problem I suspect is the range of real or perceived snake oil products, many of which have been real, and the suspicion that people have of products which currently defy measurement despite frequently widespread reports from respected audiophiles attesting to their efficacy in improving sound quality.
It may well be too much to expect a generally accepted understanding of the term "tweak" but I am inclined to define it as an addition to what is in the box of the component in question. Many come with stock i/cs and power cables which are included simply to get started but of which the manufacturer would make no claims to be suitable for other than that purpose. DCS is one such manufacturer with which I am familiar whose products fall into that category and many speakers come with no cables at all. Obviously with the latter you just have to buy some cables from the very wide range available at an equally wide range of prices. Logically it seems to me to be difficult not to regard such purchases as a tweak and we resist doing so because of the unflattering connotations of the term "tweak" and its aforementioned associations with the snake oil products referred to earlier.
Is there really any logical difference between adding up market cables and footers such as CMS and Stillpoints, Stacore platforms etc?
In saying this I am conscious that it is contrary to my OP but as this thread has progressed I find it increasingly difficult to logically justify excluding cables from tweaking.
 

Barry2013

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Interesting thread. Considering that roughly 65% of my entire system’s cost is dedicated to many of the so-called “tweaks” and “accessories” mentioned in this thread, my take is perhaps a bit out of the ordinary.

The words "tweak" and "accessory" by their very definitions imply insignificant contributors and since both terms are often times used synonymously and interchangeably, so will I. Ignoring for the moment all the potential superior/inferior designs, materials, treatments, and installation methods (superior means everything) many of the tweaks and accessories listed in this thread just so happen to apply either to the electrical energy management or mechanical energy management sectors.

That’s interesting because about 6 years ago I reached the conclusion that even though electrical and mechanical energies are a basic requirement for any playback system to even function - that when under-controlled or poorly managed these same two energies will utterly cripple our sensitive components’ precision and accuracy such that they can only perform at a small percentage of their real potential. Thus leaving a majority of the music information embedded in a given recording (regardless of format) so distorted that even though read and processed, much of the info remains inaudible at the speaker due to a much raised noise floor. A universal performance-limiting governor if you will (think hi-fi sound).

Few if any can agree on what is most important in a playback system as that horse has been beaten to death many times. But hopefully most would agree that whatever is truly most important must apply somewhat universally to every playback system and that becomes the foundation for which to build any playback system.

It’s fundamental from an architectural building structure perspective that the structure’s foundation is paramount to the structure’s performance and longevity. I’m also convinced that for perhaps every performance-oriented industry, it is the foundation that ultimately determines the performance of whatever is placed on top of it.

Try thinking of a playback system as a vineyard where every component/object has its place in the vineyard with little or no overlap (impact) into other parts of the vineyard. That is, unless its related to the electrical or mechanical mgmt. sectors which impact all or nearly all parts of the vineyard.

Sure upgrading a tiny fuse in a single component may be considered somewhat of a joke. But when all fuses are upgraded in all components the laughter turns to a little smile. Even more impacting when all AC plugs, outlets, and IEC connectors are upgraded to superior versions. Vast improvements can be achieved when installing/upgrading to superior line conditioners for all components. Still more significant gains can be achieved when all cables, fuses, connectors, and outlets are cryo-treated. Still more gains can be achieved when such electrical objects are cryo’ed via the superior cryo’ing method.

With every superior upgrade to the foundation, it’s simply observing the sonic gains exponentiate as perhaps every part of the vineyard is impacted. The keyword being superior. Superior products, designs, treatments, and installation methods. Thus implying there exist plenty of inferior types that give the illusion of little or no sonic benefits can be had.

If you haven’t noticed, what we’re talking about here is building blocks. Building piece by piece a superior foundation to address universal distortions induced by electrical and mechanical energies that severely cripples every last component when left untreated. Moreover, it’s imperative to note that building such a foundation requires an all or nothing effort. Especially for the mechanical energy mgmt. sector. A token or half-assed effort is hardly better than no effort. Whereas, applying an extreme focused effort is potentially life-changing as every component built on this foundation is allowed to perform far closer to its real potential. IOW, when taken to the extreme, you just might eventually conclude that the components and speakers from the buy-sell merry-go-round are the real tweaks and accessories when it comes to performance. Even though this seems bass-ackwards.

If I stop here and consider my entire foundation complete, most any playback system employing superior electrical tweaks / accessories including those ingredients listed above will have already achieved a level of musicality few other systems can match. But the electrical energy mgmt. sector only gets us maybe 1/3rd of the way toward a well-rounded complete and superior performing foundation. The other 2/3rds falls to the mechanical energy mgmt. sector.

So when you ask, “Is a tweak a sensible investment or a waste of money?” my broad-brushed response is, that depends. Not on the tweak but on your own mindset, the importance you place on performance, and your end-game plan toward experiencing real musical pleasure. For example. There are those who arrive at the drag strip with hubcaps removed from their station wagons to lower wind resistance and there are those who arrive with their finely-tuned fully-blown Top Fuel dragsters indicating one group is taking performance far more seriously than the other.

Maybe a better question is, when you think of a building structure’s foundation, do you envision the foundation as a single unit? Or do you envision all the various products, designs, ingredients, and installation methods that make up a superior foundation e.g. rebar, cinder blocks, beams, cement, stones, columns, packed soil, curing times, frames, etc? And do you envision that the responsibility has to fall to somebody to assemble a superior foundation?

You said, “I do not believe you can turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse.” But I say, show me a playback system regardless of cost that employs few or no so-called tweaks and/or accessories and I’ll show you a playback system that cannot rise above the all-too-common me too hi-fi sound aka a sow’s ear.

Alternatively I say, show me even a humble system that employs superior versions of these so-called tweaks and/or accessories i.e. superior designs, materials, and installation methods (aka a well-thought-out foundation) and I’ll show you a playback system with a level of musicality aka a silk purse that is perhaps unmatched by any other system regardless of cost.

IME, this explains exactly why a few years ago a well-regarded amp designer admitted in another forum when discussing measurements that every last one of his designs as well as every other designers’ designs included at least one serious and unknown flaw that could not be measured. Having never heard his designs, my response to him was that his designs contained no such serious unknown flaws but rather his designs were simply incomplete without being properly installed in a playback system employing a superior foundation that would allow his and others’ designs to soar far beyond the universal performance-limiting governor. My response was not well-received even though I touted his designs far higher than he did.

The bottom line is, whether we realize it or not and whether superior or inferior every last playback system is built on this same foundation whose performance is determined solely by our desire to sufficiently manage electrical and mechanical energies – bar none.
 

spiritofmusic

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Barry, I remember back in the 80s when £10k was a good sum for an excellent system, £30k for a top 6 amp active Linn Naim system to be drooled over, the estimate was 90/10 re how much to spend on gear/ancilliaries e.g. cables, rack.

At £10k, it was unheard of to spend less than £9k of that sum on the components.

And then Mana upgradeable supports came along, and for the first time one could contemplate spending well in excess of that 10% on ancilliaries.

Fast forward 3 decades and things really have changed. Of course it's totally healthy skepticism to ask whether this is right.
 

Barry2013

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Stehno many thanks for your post.
I found it very interesting and deliberately did not reply immediately in order to reflect at length on what you said.
It's obviously a well thought through contribution based on long experience which deserves to be taken seriously, but your choices are unusual in that the cost of the "tweaks" is such a substantial part of your system spend. Having said that it may well be that that figure includes expenditure on cables which not everybody defines as a tweak.
I am sure I am not alone in my curiosity about what products you have installed in your system and the benefits that they have brought. Can I therefore ask you to tell us more about your choices which I am sure will be interesting and helpful to many members, and certainly to me.
 

Barry2013

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Barry, I remember back in the 80s when £10k was a good sum for an excellent system, £30k for a top 6 amp active Linn Naim system to be drooled over, the estimate was 90/10 re how much to spend on gear/ancilliaries e.g. cables, rack.

At £10k, it was unheard of to spend less than £9k of that sum on the components.

And then Mana upgradeable supports came along, and for the first time one could contemplate spending well in excess of that 10% on ancilliaries.

Fast forward 3 decades and things really have changed. Of course it's totally healthy skepticism to ask whether this is right.
 

spiritofmusic

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I do think the 90/10 split is bogus. Maybe not then, because there really wasn't a market in anything sophisticated or pricey in supports, cables, mains products.

So, if I own gear that talks to me and I believe outperforms gear up to 2-3x the price, should I feel wrong in spending some of that value excess on things that first maintain the sonic signature I so admire to begin with, and which with effort and cumulative goodness goes on to synergistically extend this goodness by addressing some of the shortcomings or restricted performance envelope apparent on day one of purchase?
 

Barry2013

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Yes I agree Mark and the evidence on the benefits of better cables, supports, etc has become increasingly evident over the years.
But as the range of such products has expanded it has become more important and more difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff and to get the balance right between spending on upgrading system components and spending on tweaks.
I doubt that anybody gets that right all the time but the closer one can get to achieving the right balance the better.
 

spiritofmusic

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Barry, I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I view tweaks as a bit of hot rodding, regular Vitamin shots, Botox injections LOL.

For me, I've chanced on a blend of gear and specific type of presentation that totally speaks to me. But I'm fully aware where things lag compare to more neutral, sophisticated gear. So for me, tweaks both enable me to max out what I Iove, and bridge a little twds what other gear does so well.

Zus are very rarely commended for neutrality and transparency. My attention to detail is getting me way further into these areas, while not losing any of their core good time soulful DNA. At least, IMHO.

And I put all of this down to attention to detail on tweaking and my room.

But hey, my POV goes nowhere w those who would just say, Marc, just buy those Magicos and be done w all that tweaky spending and obsessing LOL.
 
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stehno

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Stehno many thanks for your post.
I found it very interesting and deliberately did not reply immediately in order to reflect at length on what you said.
It's obviously a well thought through contribution based on long experience which deserves to be taken seriously, but your choices are unusual in that the cost of the "tweaks" is such a substantial part of your system spend. Having said that it may well be that that figure includes expenditure on cables which not everybody defines as a tweak.
I am sure I am not alone in my curiosity about what products you have installed in your system and the benefits that they have brought. Can I therefore ask you to tell us more about your choices which I am sure will be interesting and helpful to many members, and certainly to me.


Thanks for your kind words, Barry.

If we just dive into a rabbit hole about controversial details, it generally just spawns new controversies. It's been done before. Besides, words are cheap, right? So instead I provided some links in my media page (click link below) of some in-room recordings I took with my iPhone in recent months.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/media/simple-as-possible-but-no-simpler.201/

It's a bit risky as I've not heard these recordings on anything other than my iPhone and MacBook speakers but I think there's enough substance there to get some points across.

The iPhone's mic certainly has its limitations but I'm surprised how well the iPhone mic preserved at least some of the detail, timbral accuracy, ambient info, and the lack of negative sibilance.

Included in the list are a few dynamic/complex pieces as well as a few supposedly old and inferior recordings just to demonstrate there's quite a bit of music info in those too.

Anyway, give a few of these a listen and if you think there's any substance there, I'd be happy to share any details with you. Otherwise, we can just move on and save some time and anguish. :)
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Barry, I remember back in the 80s when £10k was a good sum for an excellent system, £30k for a top 6 amp active Linn Naim system to be drooled over, the estimate was 90/10 re how much to spend on gear/ancilliaries e.g. cables, rack.

At £10k, it was unheard of to spend less than £9k of that sum on the components.

And then Mana upgradeable supports came along, and for the first time one could contemplate spending well in excess of that 10% on ancilliaries.

Fast forward 3 decades and things really have changed. Of course it's totally healthy skepticism to ask whether this is right.
Only one way to find out; get yourself an old NAD Integrated from the late 80s/early 90s and an old pair of Missions or B&Ws and put on the expensive cables, isolation base, room tuning etc. and see if it delivers proper good sound or not. If yes, then 90% on ancillaries might be the right split :eek:.
 
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TooCool4

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Wow this has been a very long read as I was late to the party, so had to read all the posts before I could comment.

With tweaks I have tried loads but the only ones that have work with a night & day difference for me has been a regenerative power conditioner and Finite Elemente Cerabase Classics under my equipment support.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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It's interesting how this thread has revealed differing interpretations of what constitutes a tweak and what doesn't.
The problem I suspect is the range of real or perceived snake oil products, many of which have been real, and the suspicion that people have of products which currently defy measurement despite frequently widespread reports from respected audiophiles attesting to their efficacy in improving sound quality.
It may well be too much to expect a generally accepted understanding of the term "tweak" but I am inclined to define it as an addition to what is in the box of the component in question. Many come with stock i/cs and power cables which are included simply to get started but of which the manufacturer would make no claims to be suitable for other than that purpose. DCS is one such manufacturer with which I am familiar whose products fall into that category and many speakers come with no cables at all. Obviously with the latter you just have to buy some cables from the very wide range available at an equally wide range of prices. Logically it seems to me to be difficult not to regard such purchases as a tweak and we resist doing so because of the unflattering connotations of the term "tweak" and its aforementioned associations with the snake oil products referred to earlier.
Is there really any logical difference between adding up market cables and footers such as CMS and Stillpoints, Stacore platforms etc?
In saying this I am conscious that it is contrary to my OP but as this thread has progressed I find it increasingly difficult to logically justify excluding cables from tweaking.

NIce thread, Barry. What is and is not a tweak? Right now I am listening to the stock power cords that came with my Pass preamp and phono stage. I am leaning toward the notion that after-market power cords are tweaks. Sure, one needs them for the component to work, but most components come with power cords. The stock cords are essential. Anything different is a tweak. I am now finding that other power cords simply change the sound of these components, just like footers do. Perhaps some are better, but most just seem to be different.

I am going through a phase now where I am re-evaluating all of the tweaks in my system. I am finding that simpler is better and that many tweaks simply color or change the sound, more or less, to one's liking. One hears differences, often an increase in "detail" but upon longer listening, it is simply a changed emphasis on a particular frequency range and not really a advance or movement closer to the recording or to the sound of the real thing. I find it an often frustrating exercise, and quite ear opening over time. When confused, unsure or lost, I tend to refer back to ddk's preference of "natural". Does a particular tweak make the overall system sound more "natural" or not? That is the question these days.
 
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Lee

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Interesting thread. Considering that roughly 65% of my entire system’s cost is dedicated to many of the so-called “tweaks” and “accessories” mentioned in this thread, my take is perhaps a bit out of the ordinary.

The words "tweak" and "accessory" by their very definitions imply insignificant contributors and since both terms are often times used synonymously and interchangeably, so will I. Ignoring for the moment all the potential superior/inferior designs, materials, treatments, and installation methods (superior means everything) many of the tweaks and accessories listed in this thread just so happen to apply either to the electrical energy management or mechanical energy management sectors.

That’s interesting because about 6 years ago I reached the conclusion that even though electrical and mechanical energies are a basic requirement for any playback system to even function - that when under-controlled or poorly managed these same two energies will utterly cripple our sensitive components’ precision and accuracy such that they can only perform at a small percentage of their real potential. Thus leaving a majority of the music information embedded in a given recording (regardless of format) so distorted that even though read and processed, much of the info remains inaudible at the speaker due to a much raised noise floor. A universal performance-limiting governor if you will (think hi-fi sound).

Few if any can agree on what is most important in a playback system as that horse has been beaten to death many times. But hopefully most would agree that whatever is truly most important must apply somewhat universally to every playback system and that becomes the foundation for which to build any playback system.

It’s fundamental from an architectural building structure perspective that the structure’s foundation is paramount to the structure’s performance and longevity. I’m also convinced that for perhaps every performance-oriented industry, it is the foundation that ultimately determines the performance of whatever is placed on top of it.

Try thinking of a playback system as a vineyard where every component/object has its place in the vineyard with little or no overlap (impact) into other parts of the vineyard. That is, unless its related to the electrical or mechanical mgmt. sectors which impact all or nearly all parts of the vineyard.

Sure upgrading a tiny fuse in a single component may be considered somewhat of a joke. But when all fuses are upgraded in all components the laughter turns to a little smile. Even more impacting when all AC plugs, outlets, and IEC connectors are upgraded to superior versions. Vast improvements can be achieved when installing/upgrading to superior line conditioners for all components. Still more significant gains can be achieved when all cables, fuses, connectors, and outlets are cryo-treated. Still more gains can be achieved when such electrical objects are cryo’ed via the superior cryo’ing method.

With every superior upgrade to the foundation, it’s simply observing the sonic gains exponentiate as perhaps every part of the vineyard is impacted. The keyword being superior. Superior products, designs, treatments, and installation methods. Thus implying there exist plenty of inferior types that give the illusion of little or no sonic benefits can be had.

If you haven’t noticed, what we’re talking about here is building blocks. Building piece by piece a superior foundation to address universal distortions induced by electrical and mechanical energies that severely cripples every last component when left untreated. Moreover, it’s imperative to note that building such a foundation requires an all or nothing effort. Especially for the mechanical energy mgmt. sector. A token or half-assed effort is hardly better than no effort. Whereas, applying an extreme focused effort is potentially life-changing as every component built on this foundation is allowed to perform far closer to its real potential. IOW, when taken to the extreme, you just might eventually conclude that the components and speakers from the buy-sell merry-go-round are the real tweaks and accessories when it comes to performance. Even though this seems bass-ackwards.

This point matches my experience well. When I first started with upgrading my system, it got lower and lower noise (& more enjoyment) at each step. I added in the following:

1. Better cables (including new jumper wires for the Maggies when I had them)
2. Line conditioner in a Synergistic Research PowerCell 12 UEF SE
3. Fuses
4. Grounding cables
5. Isolation devices
6. Room treatments
7. FEQ generator from Synergistic

By themselves (minus the PowerCell and room treatments), one would not be able to argue a "component level" change in sound. However, taken together it transformed the sound. Collectively it is expensive but manageable individually albeit great cables can be expensive and the line conditioner is $6K.

So I agree with Stehno that building a foundation like this is important if you really want the most enjoyment. At the level of the systems here that many have, it seems a shame if we wouldn't take it that far and really hear how the components perform.
 

Simon Moon

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Room treatment is NOT a tweak!

It is as important, if not more so, than any other piece of equipment. It is much more important to the sound of the overall system than cables, for example.
 

the sound of Tao

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NIce thread, Barry. What is and is not a tweak? Right now I am listening to the stock power cords that came with my Pass preamp and phono stage. I am leaning toward the notion that after-market power cords are tweaks. Sure, one needs them for the component to work, but most components come with power cords. The stock cords are essential. Anything different is a tweak. I am now finding that other power cords simply change the sound of these components, just like footers do. Perhaps some are better, but most just seem to be different.

I am going through a phase now where I am re-evaluating all of the tweaks in my system. I am finding that simpler is better and that many tweaks simply color or change the sound, more or less, to one's liking. One hears differences, often an increase in "detail" but upon longer listening, it is simply a changed emphasis on a particular frequency range and not really a advance or movement closer to the recording or to the sound of the real thing. I find it an often frustrating exercise, and quite ear opening over time. When confused, unsure or lost, I tend to refer back to ddk's preference of "natural". Does a particular tweak make the overall system sound more "natural" or not? That is the question these days.

Peter, the last sentence you wrote here is among the most pertinent written on this subject within this thread IMHO. Great point.

An “improvement” can be a deceptive thing and chasing windmills is almost a national sport in this game... having a relative subjective benchmark like does this now sound more natural or less is one of the most fundamental values in assessing any sound quality change for improvement.

Whether something is a tweak or not, whether it is a component level upgrade or not, these things in themselves are waaay too poorly defined (what is or what is not a tweak or what is the exact generic value of changing a component) as to be largely moot but if a change or system modification makes the rendition of music more natural then that is fairly much most everything. For me any system change is just that... a system change, be it component change or tweak or whatever every specific context will yield different outcomes and different values... that is what makes this pursuit such a challenging, sometimes frustrating but for me more times an exciting and wildly joyful one.
 
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microstrip

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An alternative formulation:

Anything that deviates from an wire with gain is a tweak. Speaker modifications and acoustic treatments should not be considered tweaks as they are allowed forms of preference. A tweak must be something not allowed ... In case of doubt a null test is the only allowed method to escape from the shame of being a tweak.
 

the sound of Tao

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Ahh Micro, well perhaps but then point me to that wire with gain and introduce me to the guy who gets to set allowance on what is a valid preference.
 
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DaveC

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An alternative formulation:

Anything that deviates from an wire with gain is a tweak. Speaker modifications and acoustic treatments should not be considered tweaks as they are allowed forms of preference. A tweak must be something not allowed ... In case of doubt a null test is the only allowed method to escape from the shame of being a tweak.

Ah I see. Since the wire with gain is a fictional ideal I guess every part of every system is a tweak.
 
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DaveC

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NIce thread, Barry. What is and is not a tweak? Right now I am listening to the stock power cords that came with my Pass preamp and phono stage. I am leaning toward the notion that after-market power cords are tweaks. Sure, one needs them for the component to work, but most components come with power cords. The stock cords are essential. Anything different is a tweak. I am now finding that other power cords simply change the sound of these components, just like footers do. Perhaps some are better, but most just seem to be different.

I am going through a phase now where I am re-evaluating all of the tweaks in my system. I am finding that simpler is better and that many tweaks simply color or change the sound, more or less, to one's liking. One hears differences, often an increase in "detail" but upon longer listening, it is simply a changed emphasis on a particular frequency range and not really a advance or movement closer to the recording or to the sound of the real thing. I find it an often frustrating exercise, and quite ear opening over time. When confused, unsure or lost, I tend to refer back to ddk's preference of "natural". Does a particular tweak make the overall system sound more "natural" or not? That is the question these days.
What you say about power cables applies to every part of the system. The power cable is just easier to switch out.
 

the sound of Tao

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and also tweak is such an unattractive sounding word... I do rather like the word mod tho, much nicer sound, much more uhmm mod.
 

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