VAC 452 iQ review in Stereophile

[Mike Lavigne]

Except when it’s Fremer of coarse!

Fremer is no more than a data point. maybe one who we know well, and so we put more weight on it, or less weight depending on our viewpoint......or whether his view is friendly to our own.

 

[ALF]

Fremer is no more than a data point. maybe one who we know well, and so we put more weight on it, or less weight depending on our viewpoint......or whether his view is friendly to our own.

...

 

[ALF]

This example is wrong. Doubling in power is 3db.

....actually, it is 6db SPL...

 

[Ron Resnick]

i think it's wrong to view this feedback as authoritative, it simply anecdotal. as i said it's no proof, and it's maybe just as likely that he found a tube-speaker combination that worked as well. but let's not get dogmatic, but be open to possibilities. if someone claims to hear something, it's a data point to just think about.

no absolutes.

All fair enough.

I meant authoritative in the sense that I consider him to be a knowledgeable and critical listener who, by virtue of being a professional musician, surely knows what instruments sound like live, and how they should sound when reproduced on a stereo system; not in the sense of capriciously substituting his judgment for my personal preference.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . The unrealistic signature of SS will drive me away every time. Doesn't matter how SOTA they claim to get...

. . . .

What is the "unrealistic signature of [solid-state]"?

(Even I don't paint with that broad and generically prejudicial a brush!)

PS: If I wanted to investigate solid-state amplifiers, as PeterA asked me about recently, I would audition CH (because so many people here have switched to CH), darTZeel, Gryphon, Pass and Vitus. Other than CH, which I have never heard outside of audio shows, I know I like the sound of amplifiers from these companies from hearing them in people's systems.

 

[tima]

Hi Tima,
I think a lot of comments and the view of the audio world we have is based on our experiences. My recommendation is that when it's safe, please get to hear a high efficiency system driven by SET. Something as basic as Zu will do, or of course a top horn system would be incredible.

I think the quote I highlighted from Fremer is what separates not only tubes vs SS, but box speakers vs. high- efficiency speakers. It's that "little microdynamic stuff" is what makes music sound so alive.

I would then be interested to then hear your opinion on whether the low level passages are "hi-fi", as to me it's the very opposite of "hi-fi" and why I despise most popular box speakers, big SS, and the dCS that Fremer is using.

Hi - My post was not about SET or SS or tubes or speakers. It was about what is one's reference for assessing sonics and what one hears when listening to live acoustic music.

 

[tima]

Actually, based on Caesar's quoted text from Fremer's write up, I disagree with your interpretation of that text.

What he is saying is what I hear with AR or VTL. There is not enough nuance or inflection, which happens due to the micro dynamic contrast that Fremer mentions. I don't think he is searching for something negative to write, he usually gets out some negative in an article unless he is fully impressed, and if he is impressed, in follow up articles he mentions the product favorably. The negative that Caesar has quoted is, imo, quite significant. Though on Wilsons I am not surprised at all. The start and stop laziness that Fremer mentions is what I would call lack of flow or continuity. So his criteria here is quite the opposite of hifi. He also goes on to mention this is the "first tube amp I have heard in decades that leaves me satisfied on all genres"... is lukewarm for tube amps. Again, I am not surprised.

I'm was not talking about gear.
Yes I know how you feel about Fremer.

 

[bonzo75]

I'm was not talking about gear.
Yes I know how you feel about Fremer.

I am not talking of the gear either, but of the interpretation of the given text

 

[tima]

Of course we disagree. As noted, I know how you feel about Fremer and it is not a surprise that you want to explain him. Fwiw, nothing I wrote was a criticism of Fremer.

Bonzo: "I don't think he is searching for something negative to write ..."
Fremer: "But truly, I'm reaching for something negative to write ..."

I am not talking of the gear either, but of the interpretation of the given text

Bonzo: "What he is saying is what I hear with AR or VTL. "
Bonzo: "Though on Wilsons I am not surprised at all."

Kinda sounds like you were talking about gear - along with a gratuitous swipe at Wilson, which, last time I looked, is what Fremer uses (Alexx). Sounds a bit like you are construing Fremer's not hearing what he said he didn't hear not on VAC but on the fact that he uses Wilsons and not some Bonzo approved speaker.

Fremer: "those small, low-level dynamic gestures—where I noticed a kind of smoothness and leveling off of dynamic contrasts, coupled with what I'd call "start-and-stop laziness," where I'd expect things to "pop" with somewhat greater gusto."

tima: "When I think about listening to live acoustic music I can sometimes hear "small, low level dynamic gestures" but they are just that. Emphasizing small low level dynamic passages to where they "pop" seems like stylization "

You wrote of "nuance and inflection" (which Fremer does not mention). I do not equivocate nuance and inflection and "pop with greater gusto" - but maybe you think they mean the same.. Note that Fremer does not say that he does not hear small, low-level dynamic gestures, he says he expects them to "pop with greater gusto." To my ears an amplifier that makes "small, low-level dynamic gestures" pop with gusto sounds stylized vs what I typically hear from live music; there are performance specific exceptions.

Fremer is comparing what he heard with (as he says) what he expects to hear, probably from some other amplifier as you were comparing with "AR or VTL". You were talking about what you hear with some other amplifiers. I was talking about comparing VAC sonics not to some other amplifier or comparing it with my expectations, I was talking about what I hear in the concert hall.

That Fremer chooses to compare gear with whatever he chooses is fine and while he is not quite clear, he does lay some of that out so we get some frame of reference about his comparisons. It seems like he tends to adopt what I have named a "synthesist" frame of reference. Using a different frame of reference might lead to different comparisons, contrasts, strengths and weaknesses.

 

[bonzo75]

Of course we disagree. As noted, I know how you feel about Fremer and it is not a surprise that you want to explain him. Fwiw, nothing I wrote was a criticism of Fremer.

Bonzo: "I don't think he is searching for something negative to write ..."
Fremer: "But truly, I'm reaching for something negative to write ..."



Bonzo: "What he is saying is what I hear with AR or VTL. "
Bonzo: "Though on Wilsons I am not surprised at all."

Kinda sounds like you were talking about gear - along with a gratuitous swipe at Wilson, which, last time I looked, is what Fremer uses (Alexx). Sounds a bit like you are construing Fremer's not hearing what he said he didn't hear not on VAC but on the fact that he uses Wilsons and not some Bonzo approved speaker.

Fremer: "those small, low-level dynamic gestures—where I noticed a kind of smoothness and leveling off of dynamic contrasts, coupled with what I'd call "start-and-stop laziness," where I'd expect things to "pop" with somewhat greater gusto."

tima: "When I think about listening to live acoustic music I can sometimes hear "small, low level dynamic gestures" but they are just that. Emphasizing small low level dynamic passages to where they "pop" seems like stylization "

You wrote of "nuance and inflection" (which Fremer does not mention). I do not equivocate nuance and inflection and "pop with greater gusto" - but maybe you think they mean the same.. Note that Fremer does not say that he does not hear small, low-level dynamic gestures, he says he expects them to "pop with greater gusto." To my ears an amplifier that makes "small, low-level dynamic gestures" pop with gusto sounds stylized vs what I typically hear from live music; there are performance specific exceptions.

Fremer is comparing what he heard with (as he says) what he expects to hear, probably from some other amplifier as you were comparing with "AR or VTL". You were talking about what you hear with some other amplifiers. I was talking about comparing VAC sonics not to some other amplifier or comparing it with my expectations, I was talking about what I hear in the concert hall.

That Fremer chooses to compare gear with whatever he chooses is fine and while he is not quite clear, he does lay some of that out so we get some frame of reference about his comparisons. It seems like he tends to adopt what I have named a "synthesist" frame of reference. Using a different frame of reference might lead to different comparisons, contrasts, strengths and weaknesses.

Actually, nothing you have written makes sense to me and you are writing your own interpretation of what I have written, not what I intended to say. For example, my comment "Though on Wilsons I am not surprised at all" was not a swipe at Wilsons but a reference to my earlier points in this thread that push pull amps cannot work well with Wilsons and the likes, so since he has Alexx, I am not surprised at all. You should spend more time trying to understand what the other person is saying rather than responding so verbose

 

[tima]

Actually, nothing you have written makes sense to me and you are writing your own interpretation of what I have written, not what I intended to say. For example, my comment "Though on Wilsons I am not surprised at all" was not a swipe at Wilsons but a reference to my earlier points in this thread that push pull amps cannot work well with Wilsons and the likes, so since he has Alexx, I am not surprised at all. You should spend more time trying to understand what the other person is saying rather than responding so verbose

If you want to be understood, you should spend more time writing with clarity so your intent is clear. Don't blame your reader.

 

[bonzo75]

If you want to be understood, you should spend more time writing with clarity so your intent is clear. Don't blame your reader.

Can't help when reader has so many predefined notions.

 

[gian60]

I never liked CH in Munich,always listen something wrong and not very natural,I don't know why
Liked only in Marten room,with Stromtank,there was very good,for the 2/3 song i listen.

But tried in my room with my speaker Montagna,97 db and EV Sentry III,96 db,destroyed in every parameter all my Audiotekne,Kondo 2 Souga in biamp,Mactone M 8 V otl,Shindo shinonia,Eccecc and with all Gobel cable sound was also magic.

Listen CH in the shop in Italy,20 minutes from my home,now closed, in comparison,for some weeks with Pass Xs and XS 300,Dan D' Agostino,Esoteric Grandioso pre and mono amp,Pandora and Mephisto stereo,Aestetix Atlas mono,Rowland pre and 925,with Rockport Cygnus,Tad Ref mk II and B&W 800 D 3 and Gryphon Trident,in every combination L1/M1 mono was much better in everything.

My friend has Bergmann Sindre with Atlas and Wilson Alexandria and had before Krell Evo 1,then VIVA pre with external power supply,Phono and New Aurora mono amp,then tried D'Agostino,but when tried my CH,L1,P1 and A1 mono bought immediately and much better of what he had or tried
So i think need to try at home and find a right set up

 

[tima]

Can't help when reader has so many predefined notions.

Apparently. All readers bring their own context. But that is not an excuse for lack of clarity.

You're like the guy who says "don't read what I say, read what I mean."

 

[bonzo75]

Apparently. All readers bring their own context. But that is not an excuse for lack of clarity.

You're like the guy who says "don't read what I say, read what I mean."

No you quoted my sentences and wrote incorrect interpretations clearly showing a bias. And then you are further interested in arguing. You are doing a very selective reading

 

[analogsa]

....actually, it is 6db SPL...

When in doubt use a calculator

You can change amplifier power, number of speakers, sensitivity and importantly, distance

The calculator before the last

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm

 

[tima]

No you quoted my sentences and wrote incorrect interpretations clearly showing a bias. And then you are further interested in arguing. You are doing a very selective reading

I wrote about frames of reference for gauging a component. None of my posts were directed at you until you stepped into it. Now you claim bias and misinterpretation. Don't blame me for the confusion of your prose. That sounds like whining.

Bonzo: "I don't think he is searching for something negative to write ..."
Fremer: "But truly, I'm reaching for something negative to write ..."

 

[bonzo75]

I wrote about frames of reference for gauging a component. None of my posts were directed at you until you stepped into it. Now you claim bias and misinterpretation. Don't blame me for the confusion of your prose. That sounds like whining.

Bonzo: "I don't think he is searching for something negative to write ..."
Fremer: "But truly, I'm reaching for something negative to write ..."

quoting out of context is also a silly game, but at least your reading comprehension skills are consistent. How the reviewers pass on negative feedback is well known to keen readers. The main component that Fremer ever directly lambasted (and even there he used some user quotes) is the same brand of TT that you praised.

My first reply to you was purely conversational, to which you started grossly misinterpreting and using silly statements like I know how you feel about Fremer.

 

[microstrip]

When in doubt use a calculator

You can change amplifier power, number of speakers, sensitivity and importantly, distance

The calculator before the last

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm

IMHO it is better to understand the why's than just using online calculators:

 

[analogsa]

IMHO it is better to understand the why's than just using online calculators:

Absolutely! But sadly, this does not really work in practice, does it?