VAC 452 iQ review in Stereophile

[bonzo75]

it's all about matching amps to speakers. plenty of people try and use underpowered amps on speakers and then figure it out at some point. the problem is the metric used is the "i can turn the volume up to X even" or "volume at Y% on the control is really loud" which is 100% fallacy.

i'd also add that underpowered tubes may sound "musical" but really people are just hearing more 2nd harmonic distortion at higher wattage levels. totally wrong.

effortless sound is the goal. it's not a volume control setting. it's the shove that Fremer said was missing on the big Vacs.

Yeah when I told Brad the KR integrated was constrained on the acoustats, he told me I must be listening too loud. I never got that. The much more powerful project sphinx, a hybrid, was so much better. I see this the speaker is 85 db the amp is 20 watts so add 85 plus 20 = 105 you should be fine kind of argument too many times.

 

[caesar]

Imagine Caesar if we didn't all hear differently, or value different things from our playback. We'd all be buying Soulution preamps to go into our tube power amps Lol.

Hahaha.

Time to take a break, hit some balls outside, and jam my Zus! The tone, the coherence, the dynamics, the emotion- a great antidote to the madness that's going on.

P.S. I actually think Soulution is killer with Sonus Fiber Aida

 

[spiritofmusic]

Nice one Caesar. Same here, Beethoven string qts DG box flying on my Zus.

 

[morricab]

Yeah when I told Brad the KR integrated was constrained on the acoustats, he told me I must be listening too loud. I never got that. The much more powerful project sphinx, a hybrid, was so much better. I see this the speaker is 85 db the amp is 20 watts so add 85 plus 20 = 105 you should be fine kind of argument too many times.

Unlike you, I actually owned both amps (one of Christoph's Sphinx amps was mine once), so I think i had a pretty good idea of what each could do...

 

[morricab]

Hahaha.

Time to take a break, hit some balls outside, and jam my Zus! The tone, the coherence, the dynamics, the emotion- a great antidote to the madness that's going on.

P.S. I actually think Soulution is killer with Sonus Fiber Aida

You lost me on that PS Ceasar...

 

[analogsa]

the speaker is 85 db the amp is 20 watts so add 85 plus 20 = 105

This example is wrong. Doubling in power is 3db.

 

[bonzo75]

Unlike you, I actually owned both amps (one of Christoph's Sphinx amps was mine once), so I think i had a pretty good idea of what each could do...

Shame you still cannot hear it then. Shouldn't take more than warm up time to hear when something cannot drive a speaker.

 

[cjfrbw]

The waves of critic's darlings of "SS amp finally has achieved tube richness" FOTM and "tube amp finally has achieved SS precision and dynamics" alternating over the years cloyed.
It's like the alternating apotheosis between linear tracking tonearms and gimbaled/unipivot etc, idlers vs. belt vs. DD. It's the Endless Recycle Of Anointed Components.
Most audiophiles just get inured to what they have, no matter how costly, and probably any old thing winds up sounding like a new epiphany.

 

[PeterA]

Boy, this thread sure has caused a lot of “I am right” and “you’re wrong” kinds of statements. Here we are all cooped up and the chickens are coming home to roost.

 

[jeff1225]

I suggest you go back and read the postings on this thread and it is obvious who has come after who and been disrespectful. I’m am just simply responding to the comments, as they relate to me.

By the way, which of my seven rooms did you feel was less balanced? I’m curious as there is simply no comparison in my mind; my systems have been carefully curated with very special, rare and one of a kind pieces, while I can write a check and recreate Mike’s system tomorrow if I wanted to; which I would never do as I have a disdain to being a member of the flavor of the month club.

My 9 year old says stuff like this all the time. "I could do (insert any word here) if I wanted too."

I say: "then do it!"

 

[cjfrbw]

Wigs on the Green? Maybe with audiophiles, it's Tubes on the Green.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ve read the review which is online now .
Comes basically down to what was discussed here i think (reading between the lines )
VAC tubes can do something his darts cant but he misses the ultimate control what the darts give.

 

[microstrip]

my local friend and tone arm designer, who happens to be assistant dean of the music school at the university and a professor of music composition, a classical composer, and musician, uses darTZeel solid state amplifier and preamp. it replaced tubes, and his comments to me are that it's just more real. closer to what he hears with live music. a better tool to use for his needs.

it's fair to say if he was listening just for pleasure and maybe had different speakers he might choose tubes. and one could say that about me too. i walk the line of liking tubes but finding truth in solid state.

which proves nothing, but shows that there are lots of completely valid perspectives out there. so we are left to find our own path to musical truth and pleasure.

Mike,

I must say I disagree with the suggested tone that DartZeel is "more real" or more "true" and tubes are for listening for pleasure.Most people find that systems are pleasant just because they sound to them more real. I have owned Dartzeel for several years in the past and even hosted the new preamp and the NH458 for several weeks. It is an excellent brand, but IMHO there is nothing more real in it than in many other top tube systems.

Again IMHO what creates the feeling of more real is the synergy with the whole system, room and the education of the listener. Stereo is extremely limited in the capability of reproducing real events. But yes, audiophiles love nice rules and stereotypes in an hobby that is mostly an individual experience.

 

[microstrip]

(...) P.S. I actually think Soulution is killer with Sonus Fiber Aida

Are you addressing the new Aida?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have to admit that I find the testimony of the particular person to whom MikeL is referring to be extremely authoritative.

But I still have to defer to whatever preferences make me happy to sit in the chair and listen for hours.

 

[morricab]

I have heard a couple of panels Brad recommends with SETs. I think he is biased to valves against SS as those clearly showed lack of drive, lack of extension, compression, hardness on the SETs.

Think what you like. The unrealistic signature of SS will drive me away every time. Doesn't matter how SOTA they claim to get...I still hear it (like my comments about CH above). I had a several people copy that setup...must have ticked a lot of other people's boxes as well and people whose hearing I trust consistently were more than a little impressed (I am not sure what to make of your "flavor of the month" virtual gear dance). You have to stay within the limits of whats given but within that limit it is to me and not a few others no contest...bad power doesn't sound better because you have a lot of it. Read my review on the KR Kronzilla monos (42 watt version...before the DX and SX models came out)...I put it head to head with the Sphinx and it wasn't close. The KR had all the apparent power of the 280 watt (into the electrostatic load) Sphinx but with way more resolution, soundfield dimensionality and depth and microdynamics, which added up to simply greater realism. It was this revelation that lead me to become a dealer for KR after that. i had been playing a bit with SET before that (I had Cary monos for a bit) but hadn't decided that it was inherently right until then.

I also put it head to head against an ASR Emitter I Exclusive on an 86db ribbon hybrid from Relco (the Mantis). This was the time when the Emitter II Exclusive was the bomb in TAS (HP days still). A guy was there thinking about buying the Emitter. After 5 seconds it was painfully clear how inferior the Emitter was to the KR (the guy was literally muttering to himself and I asked him what he was saying and he says to me, " I don`t understand, the Emitter sounds broken in comparsion". I had another friend who copied the speakers I had at that time (it was Acoustat 1+1...Spectras came a bit later) but he also had this Emitter amp from ASR (he had the two chassis version) and his girlfriend (a ballet dancer and singer) came with him once to my place and after hearing my system rather bluntly asked him "why doesn't your system sound like this? This is so much more natural and realistic like what I hear at the Opera than your system". Those comments from non-audiophiles who are nonetheless in touch with the real deal say an awful lot to me and I pay attention to comments from them. Of course it wasn't perfect, but it could fool you from time to time and that is more than most do.

The funny thing is that i am not inherently transistor phobic like you think. KR amps are 2/3rds SS. My NAT was SS output as was the Sphinx...I still like how they sound. I am pretty sure I would like the Robert Koda gear and the K70 amp. There are a couple of all transistor amps that I thought were good enough sounding that I could, if I had to, live with them (The old BAT VK200, 500 series was a bit lacking in resolution and somewhat dark but sounded pretty nice nonetheless...I had the VK200 BTW and it worked quite well on the Acoustat Spectras). Oh, the Brinkmann monos are not half bad either…again a little dark but with more resolution than the old BAT stuff. Also the hybrid amp I had for review from AcousticPlan was pretty nice...higher resolution than the Sphinx but a little less musical. I am not a big fan of the Lamm hybrid though...compared to the Aries Cerat Concero 65s on Odeons it sounds crude and uncivilized.

I have not warmed though, it is true, to the latest Class D or the new hyper clean SS amps that are out there...they have signatures I don't like despite claims they don't have signatures. I would be willing to give darTZeel another chance someday and would like to try the Pass First Watt stuff but beyond that nope...regardless of the speaker. If I had no other choice I would try a higher powered hybrid like from Aesthetix, which is not too bad...or the one from Thrax.

 

[cjfrbw]

Wow. You think this thread is bad. Read all the catty remarks in the letters section after the review in Streophile.

 

[microstrip]

(...) VTL actually has a three position damping control. (...)

Actually a four position damping control. Coupled to the triode/pentode mode you get eight different sounding amplifiers in one package!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have to admit that I find the testimony of the particular person to whom MikeL is referring to be extremely authoritative.

But I still have to defer to whatever preferences make me happy to sit in the chair and listen for hours.

i think it's wrong to view this feedback as authoritative, it simply anecdotal. as i said it's no proof, and it's maybe just as likely that he found a tube-speaker combination that worked as well. but let's not get dogmatic, but be open to possibilities. if someone claims to hear something, it's a data point to just think about.

no absolutes.

 

[Lagonda]

i think it's wrong to view this feedback as authoritative, it simply anecdotal. as i said it's no proof, and it's maybe just as likely that he found a tube-speaker combination that worked as well. but let's not get dogmatic, but be open to possibilities. if someone claims to hear something, it's a data point to just think about.

no absolutes.

Except when it’s Fremer of coarse!