Dear Raul - you don't need to explain. All I'm saying is THE INFORMATION IS IN THE WRONG THREAD.
van den Hul Colibri Grand Cru
- Thread starter PeterA
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Dear Raul - you don't need to explain. All I'm saying is THE INFORMATION IS IN THE WRONG THREAD.
Raul you never give anything as your opinion, you give it as "facts." There are few fact in psychoacoustic models, all humans hear differently and imperfectly. You might not like the SME 3012, and that's your right to do so. To say that it is an interior product, and state it as a "fact" is laughable.
Dear fgriend: I'm " losting " here and I can write an hypothetical/unreal example and please let me know your opinion on it:
" some one tells me at noon with the sun shining and in a very hot/warm day that it is not noon but 3 hours before mid nigth " well my response to that gentleman could be: " hey can't you see the shiny sun in all splendor and the temperature at 40° celcius degrees and your watch says 12 noon?, then why you said a way different event to what we both are experienced? "
is that argumentative or a just common sense explanation?.
Common sense levels in between human beens makes a difference on facts appreciation. Which the true difference between you and I.Newton?, at the end his common sense extremely high level. Several " things " that we learn are confirmed by our common sense levels. Common sense does not needs nothing to prove it: common sense is self prove.
But, again: my example is argumentative or an explanation of facts and I'm not posting this for be argumentative but to understand your way of thinking. Now if in my example you still think is argumentative I really appreciated that ca show me your or the rigth answer to. Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.
Raul, we are not talking about the weather or time of day here, we often discuss subjective matters and not absolutes. When you quite often claim that your opinion is a fact, MM is better than MC, or digital is better than analog you are trying to turn your preference(at the time) into something factual. In this forum you have a high percentage of knowledgeable audiophiles with very good systems, don’t expect them to have the same patience as on Audiogon where the level of knowledge is a lot lower.
Raul, please continue to come to WBF and inject your viewpoints. The "ad print" (not) was relevant to the discussion and very interesting to read. At times, WBF tends to "rathole" off topic in its threads. Typically the thread starter (or tima) requests order and folks fall in line. Don't take it the wrong way or let it dissuade you from providing unique perspective. Feel free to open new threads as spin offs to start new conversation to avoid derailing existing threads as well. That's all.
Comment of distorting snobbish nature. Even when it contains information. It is still a DISTORTION.
Regards and enjoy humble informative comment NOT DISTORTION.
Regards and enjoy humble informative comment NOT DISTORTION.
Subjective matters?, that's something that I just posted yesterday in the best phono stage thread: that subjectivite is not important because with subjectivity no one has reason but the one that posted his opinion.
Historically AHEE teached us exactly your way of thinking and I can see you are a good trained audiophile, nothing wrong with that because that was and in reality should not be the target of any gentleman in the audio world. They teached that because it's for it's own convenience$$$ but in audio as in other orders of our life objectivity and high level of common sense is the way we should be and I learned about. I hope that sooner or latter you can achieve those targets in your life.
Dear friend: I´m noth biased in audio to any preferences, I'm not married not even with what I like or even with my audio believes. What moves any comment or action in my audio life ( from some time/years now. ) Is MUSIC and all what permit me achieve my extremely demanding targets in any room/system its reproduction.
I'm married with MUSIC and nothing else. I don't care of my preferences or the preferences of other audiophiles I care to learn how to improve my first hand experiences with the MUSIC reproduction, then if my self dersigned phonolinepreamp is not up to the task any more then I will look for a better alternative and I left in the trash and the same with my unique self tonearm design.
"" In this forum you have a high percentage of knowledgeable audiophiles with very good systems, don’t expect them to have the same patience as on Audiogon where the level of knowledge is a lot lower. ""
I know for sure about some the high knowledge levels of some WBT gentlemans but your statement that the knowledge level in Agon is lower is something that has no foundation because I know gentlemans as M.Lavigne that way before WBT started he was and is an Agoner and for me he as other of you are in his same league and no I'm not in that league because I'm a little different but aspire to be there.
He know me very well and he knows that I have a lot of respect for him and even admiration and even those some time disagree in Agon threads and even that he still is my audio friend and in those disagreements don't you think that the discussions were so " gentle " from my part because even that I try I'm not polite I'm direct and straigh and if something is black I don't say it's grey because then I will be lieying to my self.
Lagonda high knowledge levels exist every where but experts is another history.
" we are not talking about the weather or time of day here . "
my hipotethical example was posted on porpose to " see " what means common sense and that common sense needs no " facts " as a fact. 3012 vs V12 and facts not opinion or preference but true facts:
- both with way different bearing and quality design, both with different build materials way different, both with way different damping characteristics, both with way different shape design, one with removable headshell and the other non removable one, both with different internal wiring, one with continuous wiring all the way down the tonearm outputs the other with several additional issues about as the headshell wires, headshell wire additional solder joints and non continuous wiring to the outputs of the tonearm, both mounted in way different plattforms, etc, etc. The only similar characteristic in between is that both are tonearms.
So please explain me how same cartridge model can performs more alike than disimilar mounted in both tonearms: this is impossible to achieve your common sense tell you and tells me and tells to any one that the OP is in serious trouble as I posted and it's not my opinion, the facts tell us that. Noise levels, distortions levels an kind of it, resonances, vibrations,etc, etc, during playback is both tonearm are in opposite directions. No one cartridge mounted in two way different tonearms and circumstances can performs more alike than different.
Sorry but it's that way. Can I be wrong? yes but please let me know where I'm and why because jefrey, Ron and the OP even laugh of me by my posts, no bad feelings by that from my part. Sometimes our words comes by our frustration levels.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.
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I would like to report some progress with my Grand Cru cartridge. Mr. van den Hul advised me to lower tracking force by 0.05 gram every thirty or so hours as the cartridge suspension breaks in.
I now have about 35 hours and I lowered it from 1.50 g to 1.45 g. The minimum recommended value is 1.35 g.
The lighter tracking force has resulted in an opening up of the sound. It sounds a little bit lighter and freer and slightly more nuanced.
I find this to be a subjective improvement in performance. Have others tried this?
I now have about 35 hours and I lowered it from 1.50 g to 1.45 g. The minimum recommended value is 1.35 g.
The lighter tracking force has resulted in an opening up of the sound. It sounds a little bit lighter and freer and slightly more nuanced.
I find this to be a subjective improvement in performance. Have others tried this?
I’ve got a CGC on loan and ran through the setup with Analog Magik and found that the distortion did indeed drop with reduced VTF. Here are the results I got for my cart;
Azimuth:
Left = -31.10
Right = -30.88
VTF:
VTF = 1.30g
7KHz = 2.11 & 3.28
300Hz = 0.70 & 1.10
VTF = 1.35g
7KHz = 2.25 & 3.85
300Hz = 0.74 & 1.10
VTF = 1.40g
7KHz = 2.80 & 4.14
300Hz = 0.72 & 1.11
VTF = 1.47g
7KHz = 2.55 & 3.68
300Hz = 0.85 & 1.08
As you can see, I even went beyond the 1.35g minimum recommended VTF and found it continued to improve. I should note that the cart only has a few hours on it.
I use the Ortofon scale - had to break out the micrometer but the weighing surface looks to be 0.145” - so a bit higher than where a 180g LP would sit (I measured one around 0.09” thick). Are you concerned about this affecting the VTF measurement?
Yes I am. I once shared a table showing data where I measured in half millimeter changes of arm height and how that affected VTF.
Hi Peter - understood. I just checked the VTF with and without a 0.115” (2.9mm) spacer on the scale. I measure 1.33g without (0.145” height) and 1.40g with (0.260” total height) for reference. This is with an FR64s tonearm as the VTA dependency will be a function of the tonearm design.
Even so, ignoring whether the absolute VTF value is accurate, the trend is pretty clear and consistent with your observation.
Listening to Clapton Unplugged and the sound is captivating even with a few hours on this cart ;-)
And since we can’t ever be too anal when it comes to analog
, if you extrapolate the 0.07g/2.92mm factor and correct for the difference between the scale height of 0.145” and a 180g LP at 0.09”, then you get a 0.033g correction for my numbers given above. That’s assuming a constant g/mm slope, which it probably isn’t, but a close enough approximation for small displacements such as these imo.Cheers, Joe
And since we can’t ever be too anal when it comes to analog
Cheers, Joe
Note I corrected my calculation above - the delta is 0.033g - not 0.001g as I originally indicated. I mixed inches and mm the first time so got a bad result ;-)
It'd be interesting to see how this trend changes (if it changes) once the suspension is broken in.
interesting!
Are you adjusting the VTA accordingly?
I never had VTF below 1.4g on any Colibri, but had mostly lifted the Tonearm to a higher VTA instead.
Did you get a frequency response, if you did would you be so kind to share it?
No, but I think it would be best to break in the suspension first. I‘m not sure if I will have the cart long enough to reach ~50 hours as it is on loan to me.
Hi Shakti - I ran through a couple of iterations of azimuth, VTA, and VTF. I always check VTF after VTA adjustments and set to the target value. I’m waiting for some break in before going much farther with further adjustments.
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