Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England

[PeterA]

How is all of this relevant to what I've been discussing?
There are plenty of other threads to roll out the horns versus the rest "dialogue".

I am simply supporting your high-efficiency speaker approach to the hobby. You don’t need these monster, solid-state amps and tower speakers. Let’s say your approach is an alternative to the mainstream.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I am simply supporting your high-efficiency speaker approach to the hobby. You don’t need these monster, solid-state amps and tower speakers. Let’s say your approach is an alternative to the mainstream.

I do wonder if a lot of the beyond dramatic uptick I'm hearing is down my Zus high efficiency for the first time being revealed or utilised. There certainly seems to be a lot of drive, snap and shove in my sound now I've made these changes.
A little like a layer of gauze being removed.

 

[the sound of Tao]

You wouldn't even suggest two lines, one for analog, one for digital?
One thing I did learn from my Entreq period is that my CDP really did seem to benefit from being grounded separately from the analog (ie rest of system).
Or more accurately, my analog benefitted by being kept seperate.

Would putting an Entreq box back on your cdp be worth trying and just stay au naturel on the amps and analogue.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Would putting an Entreq box back on your cdp be worth trying and just stay au naturel on the amps and analogue.

That's always possible.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I do feel a bit like the crack dealer who says excellent Marc, just have one more pipe…

 

[spiritofmusic]

I do feel a bit like the crack dealer who says excellent Marc, just have one more pipe…

Just a variation on sucking down the Kool Aid.
What I've realised is that there are no absolutes in this game, implementation trumps concepts.
And set up is everything.

 

[Kingrex]

Big speakers being driven by bigger amps also fits the psychology of the post war western world especially the 60’s and through the 70’s and onwards… without even exploring the sonic differences but from a purely muscular visual perspective the answer was big cubic capacity, right back then we were being marketed with muscle cars and muscle amps and it’s easy well developed sexy marketing… it’s just downright sexier traditionally to sell on cubic capacity and big numbers.

Interesting to see the rise of the new mega amp boxes like the super big Piliums and Gryphon amps or see an amada of the ch precision super large boxes… the latest big electronics often now even visually outscale many of their system speakers. Either way it’s all a very different psychology to high efficiency being driven by a few watts.

I so get this. My wife and I were bug eyed over Boulder amps and Wilson speakers when I first started. Big Power. It makes sense to a uneducated consumer. Muscle cars, muscle amps. Power has to be better. And the more expensive, the higher the quality. And larger is a statement.

Mike L also.had an excellent point about home theater. Every audio store that makes money I know of feeds the business off the home theater. High end 2 channel is a hassle for them. Sell a theater system you get screens, projectors, seats, amps, speakers, processors and a lot of cable and installations hours.

I do think dealers and manufacturers drive some of the desire. People go to a store and get educated by a saleman. Then they validate the knowledge online. Or for the most part I hear the masses don't even go online. What percentage of audiophile are on forums??? 1%???? The store tells you what to buy. Like a car. The dealerahips and manufacturers influence the market. The dealers and manufacturers do pay attention to what catches on. Sometime slowly like in the 70 and 80s when small cars took off and Detroit still made big cars. Japan killed them in sales.

 

[Kingrex]

Never said anything about removing lines, you simply don't need to use them.




How does running multiple lines mitigate what you think an amp does to the AC power? Multiple lines are not necessarily isolated from one another. If multiple lines are being fed by the same phase then the only "isolation" is the resistance of the wires and breaker in between the lines, which is negligible. If this is such a big issue then you need a separate phase just for amps, but this will lead to issues as all phases will not have exactly the same ground potential, which will cause noise.

Further, code doesn't allow for combining grounds of different lines/circuits outside the service entrance. So if you DO run multiple lines you must plug a distributor into each line and then use a heavy gauge ground strap to connect the distributors together. Othwewise, you need a subpanel just for the audio system placed as close to the audio system as possible, and by adding a whole nother panel and breakers, you're adding complexity and expense and potantially making the sound worse vs running one simple line from the service entrance to the one receptacle near the audio system that has one distributor plugged into it. Simpler is better unless you really need the complexity to achieve a goal. For a simple 2ch audio system there is no need. For a big HT system, sure, you need the capacity to run a ton of high powered amps.

There certainly is a difference between grounding at a panel vs at a distributor, and the longer the distance in between the distributor and audio system subpanel or service entrance, the larger the difference. Noise voltage is directly dependent on resistance by ohm's law, V=IR. You want your grond connection to be as low in resistance as possible, that's why some people and almost all recording studios use heavy gauge grounding or even a copper buss bar to ground their equipment. This is especially true in a single ended system where components IEC inlet grounds are not isolated from chassis/signal grounds.

Bottom line, lower ground resistance is better than higher and you can achieve that while avoiding other potential issues by not going nuts with running multiple lines in a a system that doesn't draw much power.

Your in luck Dave. I have stepped away from audio electric for a while. Your welcome to take the reins. Have fun.

 

[Kingrex]

I do wonder if a lot of the beyond dramatic uptick I'm hearing is down my Zus high efficiency for the first time being revealed or utilised. There certainly seems to be a lot of drive, snap and shove in my sound now I've made these changes.
A little like a layer of gauze being removed.

I do believe everyone should at some time strip back all the accessories and listen. Even use cheap cords. Get a new reference. It will be interesting to see if you find anything should return.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The only install I haven't "returned to stock" on is my Stacore (I really could not face moving my 35kg TT back onto my rack and shifting the 93kg slate monster), and my ceiling diffusers which are screwed into the eaves.
I have tried my stock fuses and footers, another US plug power cord in a couple of locations.
And these changes left my sound wanting.
What I take away from my total beyond satisfied verdict after switching from balanced power to audiophile breakers and disengaging Entreq, is that my system is pretty optimised as revealed by this change.
It's not as if I've had a lift from the power changes, but revealed shortcomings elsewhere.
The two areas that I had been struggling long term to ameliorate, namely some harsh grey lack of transparency off LP, and some veiled lack of dynamics from both LP and CD, are totally addressed first by my plinth and mat/puck changes in the TT (grey lack of transparency wholly eliminated), and the power changes (soft veiled lack of dynamics addressed), fully revealed by the power changes.
The fascinating thing being how both formats are presenting these advantages differently.
LP more solid presentation, varied tone colour, more accurate timbre, less hazy; CD deeper soundstage, airier and more propulsive bass.
Especially with LP, I've ended up picking as many holes in my sound over two decades as I've been happy, this previous grey/grittiness seemingly endemic to my setup.
But attention to detail on major mods here and these power changes are banishing these blues completely.
That's why beyond these power changes, I'm not minded to eliminate or radically change anything else, and I'm completely off the endless "what if?" of interminable ongoing tweaking, my only remaining major decision will be whether to stick with GEs for 211 tubes when I next need to find a quad, or whether to go new production Mayer/Elrog, AN or Pvsane.
But that decision is a few years off.
I would never have guessed my last major decisions on upgrading would prove to be the most dramatic and radical of all.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Going to take the plunge soon on a Magnetar UDP900 universal disc/blu ray/4K disc player.
It's reputed to be highly specified to sound great with blu ray audio discs (much attention given to analog audio out), of which I have a growing collection, and 4K movies.
Got high hopes for this unit.

 

[Kingrex]

I really don't know about other isolation transformers, as I haven't had them in my room. I have gone back-and-forth with moving my amplifiers from my Torus to the wall, to the Torus, to the wall.

I do hear a small uptick in dynamic punch with Amps to the wall. But, the punch has a little edge to it. I also hear a loss of inner detail direct to the wall.

What I do not have is a good panel or dedicated lines to my room. Once those are change, I am confident my impressions of what I hear direct to the wall will change.

I will have 4 dedicated circuits. 1 for a swarm of subs. 1 for amps. 1 for preamps and vinyl/tape. 1 for digital. If people want to hobble themselves with a single circuit and power strips, go for it. The cost of bringing additional circuits to the room is low when the walls are open. A good power strip can cost the same as 2 circuits.

I see power stips as multiple unnesaary connection points. From the duplex in the wall, with a power strip, you have added the following. Male prongs from power cord to duplex. Clamp from cord to male end. Cord to clamp at female cord end. Female blade connect to input socket of power stip. Internal wire of power strip to input socket. Internal wire to clamp on duplex. All this probably dissimilar metals, oxidation over time. Its just more stuff you don't need. Bring multiple circuits to the room. Multiple circuits also allow for locating a duplex near the equipment utilizing it. It can keep wires spaced apart from one another. A big noise generstor is cables near cable. Especially power near speaker, interconnect or digital.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Removing the balanced power transformer and going to audiophile breakers has really been the correct decision.
Sorry I can't comment on your other observations and advice you've given me, but I appreciate all your thoughts on the matter.
What I'll never get to the bottom of is whether my Westwick was a poor choice, or balanced power was never a good option overall.
I'm actually not too bothered, ending up with a vastly superior outcome is all that matters.

 

[Kingrex]

Removing the balanced power transformer and going to audiophile breakers has really been the correct decision.
Sorry I can't comment on your other observations and advice you've given me, but I appreciate all your thoughts on the matter.
What I'll never get to the bottom of is whether my Westwick was a poor choice, or balanced power was never a good option overall.
I'm actually not too bothered, ending up with a vastly superior outcome is all that matters.

All bets are off when it comes to filters if you have built your power correctly. I have deduced it down to copper. If you can make your power supply all copper, your way ahead. Europe and Asia have an advantage over Notth America. Your home power distribution panels can be easily configured as all copper. You can use Oyaide cable in the wall. Big wins. You can even use "Audiophile" breakers. Some places even a 20A cartridge fuse. Fuses have a very distinct sound that is not like a CB. I have no idea if they're better or worse. I just know it's very easy to hear how a fuse differs for a circuit breaker. If you can try a Hifi, supreme fuse block and gold cartridge fuse, you should.

 

[Kingrex]

And let us know what you think using a power strip and single circuit vs multiple circuits. Get someone to loan you something sort of neutral. I think Furutech made a power distribution strip. It had no filtration, just duplexes landed in a box. Not the fancy one machine from NCF material. just the aluminum box with 2 to 3 duplex.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I can certainly try a single line/distro strip in the near future. With the uptick I'm getting on circuit breakers and multiple lines, I can't easily imagine a specific advantage.
But that doesn't mean there isn't one to be had.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't think a power strip is an advantage. I assume it will be a step back. Maybe you won't hear it. I'm not 100% sure. Many variables. Even the duplex you select in a multi outlet power strip can alter the sound. Usually these strips are a wire into a duple, then back out the duplex to the next duplex and so on. That means the 2nd and 3rd duplex have 1 or more brass jumpers between them and the power source.

My home made power strip was very good, but I was not following the law. I had a wire from the circuit breaker up and out the wall, direct into the power strip. I terminated into a copper terminal bar. Each duplex was terminated into that bar. Code requires a duplex at the wall and you plug the device into the duplex. And internally I had a better termination for the duplex than most power strips. If you spend $1400 or more on a power strip, you start getting into a better built power strip. Some power strips that are well damped and well wired are into the $4000 and higher price. Thats a lot of dedicated circuits to your room.

 

[kswanson27]

I don't think a power strip is an advantage. I assume it will be a step back. Maybe you won't hear it. I'm not 100% sure. Many variables. Even the duplex you select in a multi outlet power strip can alter the sound. Usually these strips are a wire into a duple, then back out the duplex to the next duplex and so on. That means the 2nd and 3rd duplex have 1 or more brass jumpers between them and the power source.

My home made power strip was very good, but I was not following the law. I had a wire from the circuit breaker up and out the wall, direct into the power strip. I terminated into a copper terminal bar. Each duplex was terminated into that bar. Code requires a duplex at the wall and you plug the device into the duplex. And internally I had a better termination for the duplex than most power strips. If you spend $1400 or more on a power strip, you start getting into a better built power strip. Some power strips that are well damped and well wired are into the $4000 and higher price. Thats a lot of dedicated circuits to your room.

Do you have any thoughts on the Nordost Q-Base power strips?

 

[Kingrex]

Do you have any thoughts on the Nordost Q-Base power strips?

People who have them like them. But then again, people also like all the filters and ground devices they place in their systems. QBase is not a filter from what I read. Just saying.

I was at the Pacific Audio Festival. There was a company pitching a RF device you placed on gear. The salesman was very leading. I told him why I found it to sound "Audiophile", not better. I actually liked it better without. He got mad and walked away.

What worries me about some of these devices is why do they have such a large, audible affect on a well tuned and well powered system. And its usually a very dark background. But did you also loose something to get the lower noise level. A natural stereo and a noiseless, high resolution stereo are very different.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't think a power strip is an advantage. I assume it will be a step back. Maybe you won't hear it. I'm not 100% sure. Many variables. Even the duplex you select in a multi outlet power strip can alter the sound. Usually these strips are a wire into a duple, then back out the duplex to the next duplex and so on. That means the 2nd and 3rd duplex have 1 or more brass jumpers between them and the power source.

My home made power strip was very good, but I was not following the law. I had a wire from the circuit breaker up and out the wall, direct into the power strip. I terminated into a copper terminal bar. Each duplex was terminated into that bar. Code requires a duplex at the wall and you plug the device into the duplex. And internally I had a better termination for the duplex than most power strips. If you spend $1400 or more on a power strip, you start getting into a better built power strip. Some power strips that are well damped and well wired are into the $4000 and higher price. Thats a lot of dedicated circuits to your room.

If you don't think a distro strip would be an advantage, why suggest it?
I guess I'll pass, SQ not wanting for anything.