Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England

[microstrip]

Duos aren't as bad as Ked makes out.

Word.

(wink).

+1! I have recently listened to the latest version, and although they are not my preferred cup of tea, they sounded very good.

The main problem is the existence of the Trio's!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, I get that you don't like the Zus. I'm afraid I respond better to constructive criticism than just being told that they were probably the worst spkrs you'd ever heard. Esp since the spkr that was going to convince me to jack them in was the one you sent me to hear, and I realised we didn't have the same frame of reference at all, followed up by your total dismissal of Duos, that I've grown to love.

Listen, this is not going anywhere. I'm both defensive of my choices and now open to considering change.

Graham's Pure Audio Project PAP Horn 1 definitely appeals on many levels.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, this is why maybe you don't move ahead, since you are more interested in defending and arguing back rather than listening. It has nothing to do with the Zus. I actually wrote to you over a recent PM chat that you should keep them. After that, you seemed satisfied, and then when Barry2013 wrote a review, you flooded the forum with Zu defence. You fight your imaginary fights

The hilarious sentence I was referring to above was that there are positive reviews and negative ones, it is just that the former don't post here. Lol. You actually said that

 

[morricab]

Yes, the PAP horn is doing it absolutely beautifully... it’s a magic bit of alchemy. Just playing them in now. They are the fifth pair of speakers to ever completely win me over... So I am technically polyamourspeakerous.

Can you post a picture? i was looking at this speaker with some intrigue awhile ago. What is driver make/model for the horn?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, yes I can imagine it might sound that way.

You know when you visit people and something is not playing because of tubes issues, well that's what happened when Barry2013 visited, plus I was in the middle of the burn in on a couple of power cords.

It is what it was.

And I'm defending my sound after the OTHER Barry's less than stellar words.

Hey, I'm nothing if not predictable.

 

[Blue58]

One day you might realize that I have been the one trying to help you for the last 4 years and getting your wrath for it, because to help you means to first tell you you need to change something which just doesn't work

Ked, I get that you don't like the Zus. I'm afraid I respond better to constructive criticism than just being told that they were probably the worst spkrs you'd ever heard. Esp since the spkr that was going to convince me to jack them in was the one you sent me to hear, and I realised we didn't have the same frame of reference at all, followed up by your total dismissal of Duos, that I've grown to love.

Listen, this is not going anywhere. I'm both defensive of my choices and now open to considering change.

Graham's Pure Audio Project PAP Horn 1 definitely appeals on many levels.

what isn’t going to change is your hearing Marc.
A point of fact not a derogatory comment.

 

[morricab]

Marc, I find it very difficult to reach any conclusions about the sound of your system from reading about it because of the wildly varying reports about its sound. The discontinuity of the image which Barry describes in the beginning of his long post seems to me as if the speakers were just too far apart to present a cohesive center image. It seems you never noticed this. Then the two of you embarked on a complete rearranging of your acoustic treatments for a much better presentation. All the while, you were praising the sound of your latest system iteration, room, isolation, power, etc. You seemed most satisfied, and yet after one visitor commented, you were ready and willing to change the acoustic presentation dramatically. I don't know what to make of any of this.

I don't care for all of the defence or criticism of your Zu speakers. I am not familiar with the brand. It all seems beside the point to me, yet it fills pages of your system thread. To me, the interesting thing is how different your impressions are from those of many of your visitors, and how ready and willing you seem to be to move things around and alter your system based on what others say. Just a while ago you got into hearing a lot of live music. That became a kind of reference or guide for you, as I recall. You should use that reference, and let it inform you of how to proceed with your system.

Yes, opinions do not seem to be shared and perhaps we all hear differently. Ron may be on to something in his thread about hearing. It is all fascinating to me. Good luck as you move forward in your quest.

Agreed. It seems Marc is going whichever way the wind blows...maybe time to disconnect from forums and visitors opinions and just get to where you are satisfied and don't give a damn what others think of your system...To be honest I am at this point (although I have to say I don't get the kind of radically varying comments on my system that Marc is getting). Peter's suggestion of moving them closer together (or maybe a bit more toe-in?) would have been a straightforward and simple solution to try first...was it tried?

 

[morricab]

Peter, we all have our journeys.

Mike L recently went thru 6 dacs to get to the Select. I find that perplexing.

Tang and SteveW both have disengaged their subs after expert advice. How is that different from Barry getting me to reintroduce my panels?

SteveW has gone thru any number of Stillpoints, scrapped them all, now is all CS. Thats up for sceptical debate too.

FWIW, yes I did not perceive the phasiness that Barry did. That doesn't make me a bad listener. For all I know, he might be wrong on his analysis.

I'm not so different from loads of audiophiles who have developed their systems, love their achievements, just for another listener to raise doubts.

I've had as many positive reports as negative ones, it's just the former group don't post here.

But, for the record, I have always had reservations on my spkrs, that optimising in a brilliant room has addressed, but also highlighted, and I'm more aware than ever that I'll likely be moving on.

Hoping that lets you into how I feel about things.

Going through DACs is not so surprising...have you heard how different they can sound??? It can be pretty surprising.

Tang without has (mandatory IMO) woofers is strange to me. SteveW has full range speakers already...don't see the real benefit of subs

If you didn't perceive the phasiness that Barry did it MIGHT make you a bad listener...so stop maybe being a listener and be a music lover. Save money or find a new hobby and stick with enjoying what you have. You did or did not notice more focus after adding back the damping? If yes, then going back should show you what you missed before.

True story: I once went to a friend who had a new/used pair of Audio Physic Calderas (old funky angular version). I sat down to listen and was struck by the suckout that I heard in the upper midrange. I commented on it and we broke out a test cd with level meter and sure enough there was a 10db suckout between 1-2Khz. He didn't hear it or know what to listen for and funny enough the previous owner (who I also knew) obviously didn't hear or at least realize what was causing his dissatisfaction with the sound (he did sell them afterall). Neither of the guys I am describing are good listeners...one in particular is poor and has no idea what he is listening for so he changes gear like his underwear.

You are not so different in some ways but in others you are especially sensitive to others comments and trust that they hear better than you...otherwise you could dismiss their comments and just enjoy...or if you hear it yourself then make the change if it bothers you. It would be silly of me to say that no one influences my audio choices but I can tell you that I have a strong internal compass on the project.

A lot of positive and negative could be an indication of there being a serious imbalance to the system, which leads some to clamp their ears on to the things it does really well and leads others to dwell on what they perceive it is doing wrong. A well balanced system would probably illicit fewer negatives and far more positives, IMO.

 

[Blue58]

Agreed. It seems Marc is going whichever way the wind blows...maybe time to disconnect from forums and visitors opinions and just get to where you are satisfied and don't give a damn what others think of your system...To be honest I am at this point (although I have to say I don't get the kind of radically varying comments on my system that Marc is getting). Peter's suggestion of moving them closer together (or maybe a bit more toe-in?) would have been a straightforward and simple solution to try first...was it tried?

Marc had arrived at the speaker positioning and toe-in by himself and I was not going to start moving them around.

This is my point.
If Marc achieves, to his ears, a perfect spot for the speakers, and then extols how superb his system is sounding, then I come along and say it’s flawed. Should I be leaving his setup as is with what I perceive to be flaws and congratulate him on excellent sound, as he hears it, or do I point out the flaws, that he can’t hear, and proceed to remedy the situation to my hearing ?
Suppose Marc’s hearing is deficient in some way, he will continue to have issues no matter what speaker he chooses.

Marc has raved about the Denmann horn and enjoys the homogenous soundstage of live music he has repeatably said. If Marc is struggling with detecting phase issues, soundstage cues etc then perhaps the simplest speaker would be the best option, eg. a FULL range mono speaker to be the most extreme example.

Let’s face facts, we are not all golden eared, myself included. I can’t take photos for love nor money so I’m not an amateur photographer. I’m a poor swimmer so I don’t go scuba diving as a hobby.

Morricab is correct in the above post. Stop listening to people and start listening and enjoying music. Marc was thrilled with the Steve Morse track and if I hadn’t been invited to comment then I would have let him enjoy his music as is and not bring up any issues.

 

[Zero000]

+1! I have recently listened to the latest version, and although they are not my preferred cup of tea, they sounded very good.

The main problem is the existence of the Trio's!

Correct.

 

[Lagonda]

Graham, you need to start a dedicated thread on these.

A bit of fessing up on my part. I am finally becoming properly aware of hitting a glass ceiling w my Zus.

I still contend what they do well, I don't hear in many other spkrs in a similar price range.

And they've always responded to optimising, the biggest example being the move to my current room.

Any spkrs I move to will need to retain their inherent musicality, and add in terms of more extended faster more tuneful bass, and greater transparency into the upper mids lower treble.

I am seriously tempted by horns and Apogees. But contenders like Graham's PAP horn/OB spkrs interest me a lot too, not least because of very competitive pricing.

You keep your Zu’s in one end of your room, and get these https://www.audiogon.com/listings/l...v1-3-pr-of-jl-gotham-s-4wotan-amps-full-range for the other end.
Problem solved !

 

[DaveyF]

This thread is very interesting. I fail to understand one thing though...and this is really a question for Marc to answer..
Are you highly satisfied with your current sound and the equipment in your system? If the answer is yes, then what the heck...enjoy and ignore what others ( including myself) are suggesting to you. OTOH, if you think that there is something that you don’t like...maybe first try and indentify what that is...and then rectify it.
If it’s the speakers, these are easy to replace...and there are a lot of great options out there. Perhaps it’s the amps...same scenario....something else....identify it and rectify.
Reading all of the posts from Marc, it seems like he has concerns about the SQ that he is able to produce in his home, but then I read how he defends (admirably IMO) his gear choice and his set up. Like Marc stated, this is his thread and his system....should he really care that much what others think of his system, so long as he enjoys it.

Oh, do go and listen to the Harbeths, even if for nothing else, you will have a valuable opinion on their sound.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, good turn for the better in this thread (other than Lagonda's highly practical LOL suggestion on Apogee Grands).

I think we are all sensitive to different things, or evolve in ways that fit in w what we most value in music reproduction.

When I first installed my Soundsmith Straingauge, a non audiophile friend absolutely hated the sound, finding it too layered and holographic. He really preferred the flatter, less defined sound from my old Zu Denon 103.

For him, having a wall of sound w vocals, guitar and bass mashed into one plane suited him. He never got the downside of brickwalled hot mastering. He even extolled the virtues of the execrable production on Rush Vapor Trails.

I've gone to digital projector demos where I can literally see Blu Ray motion judder, and everyone else in the room is immune.

Ignoring Barry2013's experience here w my failing and poor replacement pre amp tubes and heavy lumpy sounding non burned in power cords to Zu subs (that presentation was poor, and I should have postponed his visit), yes the things Barry/Blue58 pointed out were indeed news to me.

The Steve Morse Split Decision CD is a go-to album for me to show what my system is capable of, and Barry just looked perplexed.

Cue possible diagnosis and treatment. Now once the panels were up, I can't say I noticed less phasiness since I hadn't noticed it before. What I did notice, was a much more solid presentation, less wispy, that has enabled me to bring my subs in a bit more prominently without compromising speed and air in the mids and treble.

Even the esteemed Mike Lavigne has changed the treatments in his room, leading to dialling in his EA sub towers v differently.

I'll admit, I'm the last person to obsess on imaging, staging, pinpoint positioning. Live classical to me has left and right spread, but music seems to reach my ears (and brain) as series of waves or expanding bubble.

For me, music reproduction is first and foremost about tone and timbre. Picking out individual instruments is of no interest. And msybe that's why this phasiness criticism has, ahem, phased me LOL.

Brad, for the first time you've really said something that's chimed w me.

I am deffo a music lover first, the endless navel gazing in this hobby is equal part interesting and frustrating.
I do feel I'm closer than ever to the sound I'm fully content with, and despite Barry throwing a spanner in the works, we ended up in the middle with a better sound, a John Schofield jazz fusion lp he really liked the presentation of, and then the Previn Planets lp, which got him really smiling.

He'll return before year end as I finesse the sound a little more (he still has to hear the uptick from the Siemens NOS tubes I've put in the preamp, and slightly rejigged acoustic treatmrnts).

But from 2019, I'm laying low on system changes. I just want to get used to what I've achieved, worry less, listen more.

 

[Barry2013]

Sounds promising Marc
And just to let you know you were in my thoughts this PM when I used for the first time the AD rcm I bought from Ked very recently. Showed the benefits I heard from your Degritter on my visit.
These ultrasonic rcms really are a no brainer.

 

[KeithR]

Maybe a first, a guy who is going to withdraw from a thread written about his own system.

As the song goes, if I didn't have bad luck, I'd have no luck at all.

Tbh, I'm a bit fed up of having to justify my choices. Having to justify anything at all.

I'm sorry- but this is most ridiculous thing you've ever posted. none of us post on your thread until you come clamoring here every few weeks with some new problem, question, or tweak trying to fix your Zu sound.

All of us are trying to *help* you. i personally have put you in touch with the most highly knowledgeable Zu person in the world who is actually used in the *design* process and yet you are still futzing and taking sh$% out and buying tweaks, etc.

Please don't compare yourself to MikeL, SteveW, etc all of whom love the basic sound of speakers in their room. You don't.

The bottom line is you aren't happy with a) Zu or b) anything. But to insinuate that forum members are the problems is a pile of BS. Nobody has forced you to justify *anything* on this forum.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread - i hope you sincerely find audio happiness Marc.

 

[Al M.]

You are not so different in some ways but in others you are especially sensitive to others comments and trust that they hear better than you...otherwise you could dismiss their comments and just enjoy...or if you hear it yourself then make the change if it bothers you. It would be silly of me to say that no one influences my audio choices but I can tell you that I have a strong internal compass on the project.

A lot of positive and negative could be an indication of there being a serious imbalance to the system, which leads some to clamp their ears on to the things it does really well and leads others to dwell on what they perceive it is doing wrong. A well balanced system would probably illicit fewer negatives and far more positives, IMO.

Good points. I am influenced by others in our Boston audio group or other visitors, and take in their negative criticisms as well as their positive ones. But I don't freak out about negative comments and have no reason to. I know that my system does have some weaknesses (like every system does), so I don't have to become overly defensive. Heck, I even routinely have pointed out some weaknesses myself. On the other hand, some negative comments I can simply brush aside, and I think rightfully so, as mere preference and/or particular sensitivities or perceptions. Why? Because just like you I have a strong internal compass, and I am acutely aware that no system, even the most all-out approach towards state of the art (which mine isn't, obviously), will satisfy everyone equally. It's just not going to happen. High End audio is just way too personal for that, with very individual system solutions for each single person. As long as I'm happy with my own system that's all that counts. And hell yeah, I'm happy (which doesn't mean that I'll stop working on improvements).

 

[morricab]

Guys, good turn for the better in this thread (other than Lagonda's highly practical LOL suggestion on Apogee Grands).

I think we are all sensitive to different things, or evolve in ways that fit in w what we most value in music reproduction.

When I first installed my Soundsmith Straingauge, a non audiophile friend absolutely hated the sound, finding it too layered and holographic. He really preferred the flatter, less defined sound from my old Zu Denon 103.

For him, having a wall of sound w vocals, guitar and bass mashed into one plane suited him. He never got the downside of brickwalled hot mastering. He even extolled the virtues of the execrable production on Rush Vapor Trails.

I've gone to digital projector demos where I can literally see Blu Ray motion judder, and everyone else in the room is immune.

Ignoring Barry2013's experience here w my failing and poor replacement pre amp tubes and heavy lumpy sounding non burned in power cords to Zu subs (that presentation was poor, and I should have postponed his visit), yes the things Barry/Blue58 pointed out were indeed news to me.

The Steve Morse Split Decision CD is a go-to album for me to show what my system is capable of, and Barry just looked perplexed.

Cue possible diagnosis and treatment. Now once the panels were up, I can't say I noticed less phasiness since I hadn't noticed it before. What I did notice, was a much more solid presentation, less wispy, that has enabled me to bring my subs in a bit more prominently without compromising speed and air in the mids and treble.

Even the esteemed Mike Lavigne has changed the treatments in his room, leading to dialling in his EA sub towers v differently.

I'll admit, I'm the last person to obsess on imaging, staging, pinpoint positioning. Live classical to me has left and right spread, but music seems to reach my ears (and brain) as series of waves or expanding bubble.

For me, music reproduction is first and foremost about tone and timbre. Picking out individual instruments is of no interest. And msybe that's why this phasiness criticism has, ahem, phased me LOL.

Brad, for the first time you've really said something that's chimed w me.

I am deffo a music lover first, the endless navel gazing in this hobby is equal part interesting and frustrating.
I do feel I'm closer than ever to the sound I'm fully content with, and despite Barry throwing a spanner in the works, we ended up in the middle with a better sound, a John Schofield jazz fusion lp he really liked the presentation of, and then the Previn Planets lp, which got him really smiling.

He'll return before year end as I finesse the sound a little more (he still has to hear the uptick from the Siemens NOS tubes I've put in the preamp, and slightly rejigged acoustic treatmrnts).

But from 2019, I'm laying low on system changes. I just want to get used to what I've achieved, worry less, listen more.

Sad to hear its the first time I have said something you thought was relevant...I guess once is better than none... LOL!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, I realise after KeithR's stern but correct words that I'm the one guilty of derailing my own thread.

Apologies to anyone who feels I've been unecesarily defensively terse towards.

I do realise I've said more than enough about my choices, and maybe have become the party bore that sits in the corner railing against the world.

My story is really not that interesting and even less so to others w no interest in my gear to hear me pontificate as to how good it is, yet how it falls short.

To put the record straight, ahead of me calling it a day chatting about myself all the time, I am actually happy w what I've achieved but need to wake up to the fact that it maybe isn't all that, obv falls short to the ears of various visitors, and my mind should be open to change.

I'm actually at a point in my life I want to settle down more, listen more to my music than my system. Also I have a stack of chapel related non audio priorities I need to find the funds for, so HiFi takes a back seat. I'll be buying plenty of albums however.

So, true apologies to all for being up myself, contrary, defensive and overly sensitive. Your input is appreciated even if it hasn't always seemed that way.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, more that your philosophical take struck a chord w me. I'm sure I've agreed w you on Nat amps LOL.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Can you post a picture? i was looking at this speaker with some intrigue awhile ago. What is driver make/model for the horn?

Hi Brad,
As they say... and here’s one I prepared a little earlier...won’t comment too much as we are in Marc’s thread, but phenolic compression driver horn, smooth as... unsure who is supplier of it, branded Pureaudioproject... and there are a few reviews out there now. It will be interesting to see where it goes, just putting some hours onto them for a few weeks... sounding full of great potential and AMAZING value!