Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, are you watching Line Of Duty?
OCG, AC-12, AFO, DIR, ARU?
In response to yr last IMHO YMMV
LOL
Yes, I'll admit Zus homogenise music a little more than some spkrs
You, and every owner of horns, will have the desire to get away from this as much as possible
But what I'm talking about is not homogeneity, one can have a forgiving spkr or an unforgiving one, they can both be homogenous or not homogenous.
I'll go out on a limb to say that the quasi full range/high efficiency nature of Zus, centering on non crossover loss lower mids density, allows an easy going immersion into the musical message no matter how poor the lp or cd.
No Zu advocate is going to advise these spkrs for those w thousands of the very best classical and jazz lps.
But one wouldn't recommend many horns on those with a room full of Zep, electric Miles D, Trentmoller, Weather Report, Santana, as well as the best Bach and Chopin, and the worst Rush and Metallica.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, you've had an invite to hear optimally set up Zus to confirm or burst yr opinion, but have declined since I can't provide multiple amp ABs. On top of that, you'll misinterpret what I've said online. Your prerogative.

 

[bonzo75]

Yeah I have been watching line of duty. Seasons 2 and 3 were enjoyable but has been downhill since though still watchable

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, you remember how we tore thru your Elton John, U2, etc cds when you visited the chapel?
You remember how immersive and sheer good fun that day was?
No way am I ditching the ability of Zu on "mere" cd from the quality challenged 70s and 80s to be ditched for an objective where the best stuff sounds dreamier than ever, but the "poor" stuff is rendered inpenetrable.

And my cherry on the cake is eeking out the Zus so that Coltrane "Giant Steps" on Atlantic US original pressing is as immersive as Santana "Borboletta" UK original pressing as Rush "Vapor Trails" brickwalled flawed lp.

All enjoyable, while still contrasting the audio quality btwn superior to good to poor sonics, allowing superior Coltrane to be transporting, yet poor Rush to be still compelling.

On many systems, the chasm to Rush would be too deep.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Ron, you remember how we tore thru your Elton John, U2, etc cds when you visited the chapel?
You remember how immersive and sheer good fun that day was?
No way am I ditching the ability of Zu on "mere" cd from the quality challenged 70s and 80s to be ditched for an objective where the best stuff sounds dreamier than ever, but the "poor" stuff is rendered inpenetrable.

And my cherry on the cake is eeking out the Zus so that Coltrane "Giant Steps" on Atlantic US original pressing is as immersive as Santana "Borboletta" UK original pressing as Rush "Vapor Trails" brickwalled flawed lp.

All enjoyable, while still contrasting the audio quality btwn superior to good to poor sonics, allowing superior Coltrane to be transporting, yet poor Rush to be still compelling.

On many systems, the chasm to Rush would be too deep.

The best stuff won’t ever sound dreamier than ever with this system building philosophy unless you set expectations very much lower than what is achievable with truly great systems. Imho ymmv.

Crap in, crap out.

 

[spiritofmusic]

You must REALLY be meaning to reiterate this point, Bill, LOL.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You must REALLY be meaning to reiterate this point, Bill, LOL.

Sorry about that

 

[spiritofmusic]

I must say I find this train of thought fascinating. Music recorded, mastered or mixed more poorly should be ruthlessly revealed on the best systems. Stuff that naturally sounds beautiful should be beautifully natural on the best systems.

I guess we indeed all gravitate in the directions of systems that best represent our musical tastes.

Infintely Baffled needs bass bass bass, he's gonna laugh in the face of Animas or Pnoes.

Blue58 needs to hear Nils Frahm, Genesis AND NSimone, EllaF, BillieH, RAdams, JBlake, Snarky Puppy sound equally great, AG Duos over Animas or big Wilsons etc.

Audiophile Bill, The General need their superlative Golden Age classical, jazz and vocals, the best lp pressings, to shine over any consideration of poorer recordings, Pnoes and Swings are good.

Me, I really cannot have horns challenging Rush, Magma, Voivod, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Al Di Meola etc assigned to the bargain bin because horns are too truthful.

Indeed if that was the attitude back in the day, firstly I'd never have bothered in this hobby. Two, I really wouldn't have been attracted to the classic Linn LP12/Naim/Isobarik or DBL 80s and 90s sound I indeed craved.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I must say I find this train of thought fascinating. Music recorded, mastered or mixed more poorly should be ruthlessly revealed on the best systems. Stuff that naturally sounds beautiful should be beautifully natural on the best systems.

I guess we indeed all gravitate in the directions of systems that best represent our musical tastes.

Infintely Baffled needs bass bass bass, he's gonna laugh in the face of Animas or Pnoes.

Blue58 needs to hear Nils Frahm, Genesis AND NSimone, EllaF, BillieH, RAdams, JBlake, Snarky Puppy sound equally great, AG Duos over Animas or big Wilsons etc.

Audiophile Bill, The General need their superlative Golden Age classical, jazz and vocals, the best lp pressings, to shine over any consideration of poorer recordings, Pnoes and Swings are good.

Me, I really cannot have horns challenging Rush, Magma, Voivod, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Al Di Meola etc assigned to the bargain bin because horns are too truthful.

Indeed if that was the attitude back in the day, firstly I'd never have bothered in this hobby. Two, I really wouldn't have been attracted to the classic Linn LP12/Naim/Isobarik or DBL 80s and 90s sound I indeed craved.

Marc I think most people recognise your plight - we all wish our music was recorded beautifully 100% of the time. Alas this is not the case. If you want everything (including some of those awful prog recordings) to sound ok then this must by definition requires you to heavily voice your system to be lo-fi - there is no other way.

Hi-fidelity means that there are good and bad recordings because the system is transparent to the recording.

Do you agree that designing a system where awful recordings sound just about okay means you end with a heavily coloured system that is Lo-fi?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I totally refute your hypothesis, my friend.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I totally refute your hypothesis, my friend.

Okay well please can you provide some logical arguments as to why you believe that designing this way is not flawed. That way I may be able to assist.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have never claimed my choice is optimal for the very best recordings. That would be stupid. But my system is now very transparent, pretty neutral, tonally and timbrally diffetentiated, and good at the microdynamic/air thing.

It won't win any competitions versus Swings or Animas or Duos or Pnoes on a pure diet of the best Ravel or Chopin or DEllington or NSimone. But it will get way closer than you'll give Zu credit for.

Bill, this you'll have to take my word for, I genuinely feel by sweating the small stuff as well as the miracle of this room, my Zus have truly opened up. Even you're a general fan of the single driver/zero crossover concept (taken to extreme limits in the Pnoes).

So, I now go days at a time fully engrossed in classical and jazz, I surely would never have done this w poor transducers of acoustic music.

But I'm not going to put up with a system that shreds those lps and cds that, yes, are not the last word in ultimate fidelity.

For me, my Zus now really deliver on a much wider range of choice recordings, as well as still nailing warmth and musicality on those discs spat out by all the horns I've played them on.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, ambiguity creeps in a bit, because a lot of my issues on so many horns presentations on my faves are maybe also relevant issues w non cone bass, provenance/sonics off Tidal etc.

So my minor angst is the confluence of eg Rush, off Tidal streaming, thru non cone bass horns.

Put a Rush lp on the Vyger tt thru Gran Sfera horns at The General, and I'm happier.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I have never claimed my choice is optimal for the very best recordings. That would be stupid. But my system is now very transparent, pretty neutral, tonally and timbrally diffetentiated, and good at the microdynamic/air thing.

It won't win any competitions versus Swings or Animas or Duos or Pnoes on a pure diet of the best Ravel or Chopin or DEllington or NSimone. But it will get way closer than you'll give Zu credit for.

Bill, this you'll have to take my word for, I genuinely feel by sweating the small stuff as well as the miracle of this room, my Zus have truly opened up. Even you're a general fan of the single driver/zero crossover concept (taken to extreme limits in the Pnoes).

So, I now go days at a time fully engrossed in classical and jazz, I surely would never have done this w poor transducers of acoustic music.

But I'm not going to put up with a system that shreds those lps and cds that, yes, are not the last word in ultimate fidelity.

For me, my Zus now really deliver on a much wider range of choice recordings, as well as still nailing warmth and musicality on those discs spat out by all the horns I've played them on.

Sure I understand all the points and agree with quite a few but it doesn’t really answer the question.

The question is whether you believe that building a system to make bad recordings sound acceptable leads to a high performing hifi. I argue that alas you end up with Lo-fi.

Your system can’t, by definition, be transparent if it makes a bad recording sound okay.

If a recording is bad, the system will sound bad. The only way it won’t is if you add a lot of colouration in which case it is not transparent. If it adds colouration in this way, your great recordings will also be marred.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Just one last thing to ponder. I don’t subscribe to these things being attributes of horns etc.

There are transparent and heavily coloured systems across topologies.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, yes I can see that. My poison is the great wave of fusion/electric jazz recordings from In A Silent Way/Bitches Brew, thru Tony Williams LifeTime, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return To Forever, to Weather Report. This then got me looking back to classic quintet Miles mid/late 60s, John Coltrane 60s output, plenty of Blue Note.

Throw in the direct line from The Beatles to The Who to Hendrix to Cream to Zep, Black Sabbath and Thin Lizzy, culminating in Rush.

And the greats of Prog, King Crimson to Yes to Genesis, and Marillion etc.

Miles 70s electric jazz esp On The Corner then morphs into a big interest in French Zeuhl like Magma, ECM minimalism/icy jazz like Jan Garbarek, electronica, Jonas Hellborg avant bass etc.

Thence to London Grammar, Nils Frahm, Snarky Puppy.

And reaquainting myself, albeit late in the day to the world of classical, Bach to Mussorgsky to Ravel to Shostakovich.

So Bill, my evolution into current day classical/orchestral/post rock/avant garde/electronica/ambient, this stuff often stellar sounding, is via my most cherished lps and cds that over a broad range are challengingly mixed and mastered.

My Zus/SETs/rim drive tt was certainly the best system I could assemble to squeeze musicality out of Rush, electric Miles etc, and I've gone the extra mile to open up the sound to encompass better sonics on Ravel. And feel I've succeeded in many ways.

But yes, I can't deny the thrust of yr argument.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, yes I can see that. My poison is the great wave of fusion/electric jazz recordings from In A Silent Way/Bitches Brew, thru Tony Williams LifeTime, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return To Forever, to Weather Report. This then got me looking back to classic quintet Miles mid/late 60s, John Coltrane 60s output, plenty of Blue Note.

Throw in the direct line from The Beatles to The Who to Hendrix to Cream to Zep, Black Sabbath and Thin Lizzy, culminating in Rush.

And the greats of Prog, King Crimson to Yes to Genesis, and Marillion etc.

Miles 70s electric jazz esp On The Corner then morphs into a big interest in French Zeuhl like Magma, ECM minimalism/icy jazz like Jan Garbarek, electronica, Jonas Hellborg avant bass etc.

Thence to London Grammar, Nils Frahm, Snarky Puppy.

And reaquainting myself, albeit late in the day to the world of classical, Bach to Mussorgsky to Ravel to Shostakovich.

So Bill, my evolution into current day classical/orchestral/post rock/avant garde/electronica/ambient, this stuff often stellar sounding, is via my most cherished lps and cds that over a broad range are challengingly mixed and mastered.

My Zus/SETs/rim drive tt was certainly the best system I could assemble to squeeze musicality out of Rush, electric Miles etc, and I've gone the extra mile to open up the sound to encompass better sonics on Ravel. And feel I've succeeded in many ways.

But yes, I can't deny the thrust of yr argument.

I like and listen to a lot of the above also - I will play you some when you come and you can see whether it floats your boat or not. 60s jazz and fusion / electronic jazz is really sublime on Swings imho but ymmv.

I am due to receive my 3 pairs of Sablon Bocch interconnects very soon so will be ready for your visit in May.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And my friend, my three Bocchs arriving too. I would still love yr take here, if you can stand a bit of euphonic coloration in yr music.

And as many Roach, Xander and Pike as you can throw a stick (or fishing rod) at.

 

[asiufy]

Marc I think most people recognise your plight - we all wish our music was recorded beautifully 100% of the time. Alas this is not the case. If you want everything (including some of those awful prog recordings) to sound ok then this must by definition requires you to heavily voice your system to be lo-fi - there is no other way.

Hi-fidelity means that there are good and bad recordings because the system is transparent to the recording.

Do you agree that designing a system where awful recordings sound just about okay means you end with a heavily coloured system that is Lo-fi?

Sorry, I don't agree with the bolded part. Prog sounds amazing here, and unless you think our gear is lo-fi, then there IS a way to get that stuff to sound good. I know because it's been my goal from the start, even before I had a business, to make those recordings sound not only acceptable, but GOOD, in my systems.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Alex, Bill's point is not just good, but exceptional.

Prog and fusion excel here, but classical is "just" good (and getting better).

In Bill's opinion, the system that excels at the most exquisite Chopin will show up Rush YYZ as exquisitely painful.