Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England

[XV-1]

Now THAT's how to approach things, and how I personally view this whole hobby. The pursuit of making our recordings, any one, good or bad, sound as good as they possibly can.

+1000. It's the music that should be driving our audio selections, not the other way round.

I personally buy a lot of alternative, electronic, lofi albums - Its important that the vast majority sound listenable and enjoyable if you dig the music. Yea, the better recorded ones will always sound better.

 

[PeterA]

So often a better system will make a bad recording sound worse as it ruthlessly lays bare the fully glory of its badness.

Tim, That is a funny way to describe it, and I agree, but I think we make this assessment based on how the bad recordings sound on our good systems relative to the way our good recordings sound on our good systems. When I am listening to classical rock on my truck radio and some Black Sabbath or Deep Purple comes up, particularly the early stuff, I love it. It's nostalgic, it puts me in a good mood, all is right with the world. The sound is not great, but I don't really care. When I play the same music, same recordings, though perhaps mixed differently on my original LPs on my much more revealing home system, the music sounds much better. I hear more of the recording, good and bad, and I enjoy it even more.

I guess my point is that my bad recordings sound better on my better system, and I enjoy them more, even though compared to my truck radio, my system is ruthlessly revealing.

This is in stark contrast to my well recorded classical LPs that sound very uninvolving on my truck radio because of the limitations of resolution and dynamics. I feel like I am hearing only 60% of the music, if that, whereas on my home system, classical is heard in much more of its full glory.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I have a ton of fun listening to Elvis, Johnny Cash, and, ahem, NWA, in my friend's van, when I occasionally join him on plumbing jobs. Yes, it sounds "better" at home, but there's actually a lot of simple enjoyment to be had from lowly MP3 quality.

Re my dichotomy on a lot of my material being fairly brutally exposed on recent horns demos, indeed I'm now thinking this is the method of delivery to the horns that is the issue, not the horns themselves.

I've long thought that digital does not suit a lot of challenging recordings, flat pans, unecessary overdubs, useless multitracks, hot masters, and murky mixes. Analog both reproduces lower level detail and is more sympathetic in comparision to digital brickwalling and cliff edge treble.

So play material like Rush, Magma, Voivod or early Mahavishnu Orchestra that is much smoother on vinyl, Tidal seems to reproduce this music way starker and sharper in treble/cooler in bass, and once it emerges out of hugely analytical horns, can sound like a hot, disparate mess.

However on the three occasions I've heard well set up analog into excellent horns, this stridency not anywhere near as apparent. Still challenging. But warmer and more effusive.

So maybe my issue is not prog on horns. But prog via Tidal on horns. Or any other uber resolving high end spkr, ribbons, multidrivers boxes.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I have a ton of fun listening to Elvis, Johnny Cash, and, ahem, NWA, in my friend's van, when I occasionally join him on plumbing jobs. Yes, it sounds "better" at home, but there's actually a lot of simple enjoyment to be had from lowly MP3 quality.

Re my dichotomy on a lot of my material being fairly brutally exposed on recent horns demos, indeed I'm now thinking this is the method of delivery to the horns that is the issue, not the horns themselves.

I've long thought that digital does not suit a lot of challenging recordings, flat pans, unecessary overdubs, useless multitracks, hot masters, and murky mixes. Analog both reproduces lower level detail and is more sympathetic in comparision to digital brickwalling and cliff edge treble.

So play material like Rush, Magma, Voivod or early Mahavishnu Orchestra that is much smoother on vinyl, Tidal seems to reproduce this music way starker and sharper in treble/cooler in bass, and once it emerges out of hugely analytical horns, can sound like a hot, disparate mess.

However on the three occasions I've heard well set up analog into excellent horns, this stridency not anywhere near as apparent. Still challenging. But warmer and more effusive.

So maybe my issue is not prog on horns. But prog via Tidal on horns. Or any other uber resolving high end spkr, ribbons, multidrivers boxes.

Marc, that is an interesting observation, and I have had similar experience. Some have written that the distortions inherent in analog are more pleasing to us and they hide or make more palatable some of the harshness in certain recordings. Digital, being more ruthless at revealing all of the information in the recording, does not gloss over the issues on badly recorded material.

On the other hand, I have heard the opposite argument as well.

I don't really know. I do know that I prefer most vinyl to digital, though I have heard good digital lately, and it can sound really good. I tend to agree with you that it is perhaps not the horn speakers themselves. If good, they and other speaker typologies as well, are simply revealing or passing through, or transducing, the information they receive. It is often worth investing the quality of the source and signal as it reaches the speakers before concluding that it is the 'horn's fault".

 

[the sound of Tao]

Marc, I see the issue with prog via horns as being typical with any music that is heavily treated in the mix and suggest it is simply a fundamental issue wrt the way that it has been recorded and not related to tidal.

I’d also think that horns are very much the least analytical of speakers. They are potentially amongst the most musical. It’s more simply about an exposing honesty that comes from their startling capacity to track changes in the signal with an effortless reactive quicksilver-like speed.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The other thing Peter, is that horns excel at the soundstage thing. Music is often well fwd of the spkrs and extends well behind. Play music that is resolutely flat, maybe very few depth cues, or stitched together, and this will be laid bare more than on cones. If digital is even more transparent to this than analog, watch out!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don’t know what I think about horns and sound-staging. I don’t have a reliable data set, but I have the impression that people don’t pull horns as far into the room (away from the front wall) as many people pull panels and box speakers into the room.

I remain completely baffled that when Kedar and I visited the Avantgarde factory the Trios and basshorns were pushed up against the front wall. I asked about/challenged that speaker location a couple of times, and my questions were not well taken. I still cannot comprehend why — in a large and long listening room — they didn’t pull the speakers into the room.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc, I see the issue with prog via horns as being typical with any music that is heavily treated in the mix and suggest it is simply a fundamental issue wrt the way that it has been recorded and not related to tidal.

I’d also think that horns are very much the least analytical of speakers. They are potentially amongst the most musical. It’s more simply about an exposing honesty that comes from their startling capacity to track changes in the signal with an effortless reactive quicksilver-like speed.

Yes Graham, I kinda get that. I would still contend that Tidal has some part to play.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I don’t know what I think about horns and sound-staging. I don’t have a reliable data set, but I have the impression that people don’t pull horns as far into the room (away from the front wall) as many people pull panels and box speakers into the room.

I remain completely baffled that when Kedar and I visited the Avantgarde factory the Trios and basshorns were pushed up against the front wall. I asked about/challenged that speaker location a couple of times, and my questions were not well taken. I still cannot comprehend why — in a large and long listening room — they didn’t pull the speakers into the room.

Hey Ron,

The only thing I can think is that they were using the rear wall loading for those bass horns which are flat at the back and will undoubtedly receive a lot of reinforcement off that back wall - probably 6dB+ maybe more.

But I totally agree with you that staging is most usually preferable for me with lots of space behind.

 

[PeterA]

I don’t know what I think about horns and sound-staging. I don’t have a reliable data set, but I have the impression that people don’t pull horns as far into the room (away from the front wall) as many people pull panels and box speakers into the room.

I remain completely baffled that when Kedar and I visited the Avantgarde factory the Trios and basshorns were pushed up against the front wall. I asked about/challenged that speaker location a couple of times, and my questions were not well taken. I still cannot comprehend why — in a large and long listening room — they didn’t pull the speakers into the room.

Ron perhaps they felt there was some reinforcement of certain frequencies without speaker position. I don’t know much about horns. The dispersion pattern might have something to do with it also. I suspect panels cones and humans have different placement requirements and even sealed versus ported cones.

Did you find something lacking with the sound? I would suspect that the manufacturer has played around with this very much and optimized it for the demonstration.

 

[Zero000]

Yes Graham, I kinda get that. I would still contend that Tidal has some part to play.

I think TIDAL is alright. If there's a difference between CD rips and TIDAL in my set up it is marginal.

In all all honesty CD rips do seem a tad better. Just not by much.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, if that's right Justin, then it's vinyl all the way for me.

 

[bonzo75]

I think TIDAL is alright. If there's a difference between CD rips and TIDAL in my set up it is marginal.

In all all honesty CD rips do seem a tad better. Just not by much.

That's because your laptop cannot highlight sufficiently the differences in the quality of trial and the rips

 

[Zero000]

That's because your laptop cannot highlight sufficiently the differences in the quality of trial and the rips

Next job - bring a good streamer round.

It could certainly differentiate between TIDAL and Quobuz. A few years ago they did sound different. They may still. I started dumping USB output into files and analysing them to try and find out why.

All I can say was the output for the same tracks was actually different between the two.

 

[Zero000]

That's because your laptop cannot highlight sufficiently the differences in the quality of trial and the rips[/QUO.

Well, if that's right Justin, then it's vinyl all the way for me.

I think that whenever I get my vinyl rig out. For about two hours.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hey Ron,

The only thing I can think is that they were using the rear wall loading for those bass horns which are flat at the back and will undoubtedly receive a lot of reinforcement off that back wall - probably 6dB+ maybe more.

But I totally agree with you that staging is most usually preferable for me with lots of space behind.

This is a reasonable theory, Bill. Even if that is correct I still would’ve pulled the Trios forward.

I’m normally not very good at gauging sound-staging effects, but I remember thinking during that demonstration that sonic images were too big. I remember thinking that a vocalist’s mouth sounded like it was a couple or a few feet across.

Kedar can give us his recollection on this subject during that demonstration. He will also better remember the amplifiers we cycled through. One was an Air Tight 211 or integrated, I think. Another was Avantgarde’s own AC and battery-powered preamplifier

 

[tima]

Tim, That is a funny way to describe it, and I agree, but I think we make this assessment based on how the bad recordings sound on our good systems relative to the way our good recordings sound on our good systems. When I am listening to classical rock on my truck radio and some Black Sabbath or Deep Purple comes up, particularly the early stuff, I love it. It's nostalgic, it puts me in a good mood, all is right with the world. The sound is not great, but I don't really care. When I play the same music, same recordings, though perhaps mixed differently on my original LPs on my much more revealing home system, the music sounds much better. I hear more of the recording, good and bad, and I enjoy it even more.

I guess my point is that my bad recordings sound better on my better system, and I enjoy them more, even though compared to my truck radio, my system is ruthlessly revealing.

This is in stark contrast to my well recorded classical LPs that sound very uninvolving on my truck radio because of the limitations of resolution and dynamics. I feel like I am hearing only 60% of the music, if that, whereas on my home system, classical is heard in much more of its full glory.

Okay, sure. I can appreciate that. I suspect we may be using similar words to account for different scenarios.

I'm assuming that a bad recording is just that, independent of format or system. In theory it would be a bad recording even if no one heard it.

I presume bad recordings sound better on your better system just as 'good' recordings sound better on your better system. I also presume you would agree (but don't let me put words in your mouth) that playing a bad recording on your better system does not turn it into a 'good' recording and does not change the relative difference between good and bad recordings.

I've also heard bad recordings sound worse on better systems.

Where we probably differ is my unwillingness to accept that a system described as ruthlessly revealing is something desirable to me. I've heard a few relatively expensive systems at shows that sounded ruthlessly revealing. My word for those and similar is astringent.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Yes Graham, I kinda get that. I would still contend that Tidal has some part to play.

I think when you’ve heard a mscaler properly setup Marc you might well change your mind on that. Well I hope so if it gives you a good streaming pathway. When I suggest properly setup though I’m talking a system treated with the kind of very committed high end approach to detailing it all out. It may take some time but things like an audio grade switch and renderer powered by proper linear supplies, everything isolated on high quality bases, best quality cables (power and signal) and connectors throughout. Zero sheen, big rich and organic with a propulsive rich bass and natural warmth. If you want to max out your investment in streaming you need to really work at it every bit as hard as every other aspect of your system. To minimise RFI I’ve used Entreq wraps over every power and signal connector. This made me realise just how good it actually can get. It’s this kind of system spec and detailing (and the mscaler) that made streaming a musical possibility for the very first time for me.

I do see sota analogue as the high mark and if it is then even more transparent than good digital I don’t see how poorly recorded music will sound (while different) in any way more bearable via vinyl when played into a speaker as open and revealing as a set of horns with set. The clearly synthetic nature of highly treated recordings on a top end TT would just sit there even more exposed and unnatural. Well it does on my mate’s Animas and OMAs when he plays vinyl.

While I know you have said multiple times that you are now a committed one system guy and that Zu is your only way forward so I’m definitely not suggesting this for you but I do love having Harbeths that allows some additional latitude in musical access for the more OK recordings (though not poor recordings and never just reasonable performances, why would you bother) and then also having horns where you can appreciate the difference. I’m lucky I was more pub band punk plus jazz and classical as a younger guy so prog isn’t something I’m trying to salvage and I haven’t tried to listen to The Cure or The Smiths on horns yet... they do sound great on the Harbeth 40.2s... might give that a try at any rate and see.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Graham, all good points, and your positive suggestions as ways to go are appreciated, and do make sense.

I will get the chance to hear Chord incl the MScaler in the next few months, and will report back in due course.

I'm due to very soon hear Bill's Swings, and as a full range horns on SOTA tubes/analog rig, I'll get the best perspective yet of how I feel about a range of recordings/masterings quality on horns. We'll listen to the cream of the crop ie Bill's prized classical and jazz lps, and some of my more "challenging" vinyl.

 

[bonzo75]

This is a reasonable theory, Bill. Even if that is correct I still would’ve pulled the Trios forward.

I’m normally not very good at gauging sound-staging effects, but I remember thinking during that demonstration that sonic images were too big. I remember thinking that a vocalist’s mouth sounded like it was a couple or a few feet across.

Kedar can give us his recollection on this subject during that demonstration. He will also better remember the amplifiers we cycled through. One was an Air Tight 211 or integrated, I think. Another was Avantgarde’s own AC and battery-powered preamplifier

AG's own, airtight 300b integrated, and the AN 300b integrated which did not drive them properly.

I think the soundstage was very good on orchestra in terms of width and detail. It was like a large orchestra stretched from left to right like a real one, good separation of instruments. The bass density was excellent as well as the easy bass flow, rise and fall from soft to high.

Where trios lack for me personally is a bit on tone. I tried listening to them (first it was esoteric CD player, then when Ron and I were there they had an AN 5 dac after the esoteric transport in the chain). Also thought moving their amps to airtight would alleviate that issue but it didn't. I think SS amps can be quite exciting on the trios. They are quite big, detailed, extremely dynamic and bassy. The mids and high could be slightly improved. That said if one did not play chamber and solo pieces it would be fine.

Regarding soundstaging it was not layered behind the speakers, more wide and a bit in front, but it is a different way of listening compared to panels or cones