Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England

[PeterA]

Unlike some guys here (especially PeterA), who have managed to eliminate acoustic treatments from their rooms, every single time I think I can get away without absorption on front wall and side wall reflection points, the results in hardened SQ means back in they go. And now absorption on the eaves proving to be a benefit.

Marc, I found it was very difficult to find a good speaker position when I removed all the sound treatment and eliminated tow in. But the result was very well worth the effort.

Have you ever experimented with moving your speakers away from the sidewalls and pointing them straightahead? You may find the hardness changes and then when you remove the sound treatment the sound will open up and sound more natural.

Ignore the advice if you’ve already tried it. Perhaps your speakers sound best pointed right at you and spread wide apart in the room.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My Zus are 4' from side walls, 8' apart. I've tried straight ahead, to no avail, but advice I've been given is to shorten the distance between them and then maybe try toed-out again.

KeithR who owned my spkrs for a few years is adamant they only work with a good degree of toe-in.

And tbh, since I have 30° descending eaves R and L, toe-out will create greater interaction between those eaves surfaces and Zus output.

 

[Zero000]

Marc.

The next upgrade is your speakers. You need much more radiating area from the speakers in a room that size.

Think multiple large woofers from 20 plus Hz up, high quality mid range units and excellent tweeters.

That room could astound you.

I would have a very serious think about what I am saying. Source components, small time tweaks and room treatments are not the answer short term for a room that size.

Duos would do well in there. Trios too. I know you like them. Take the plunge.

Duettas could also be killer. These latest clamps really consolidate the Duetta and Scinitilla that have them (read one pair) as a crazy good speaker.

I would rate the volume capability of Avantgarde speakers in there as more than capable of filling the space.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . or the long-awaited Zu Dominance.

Actually, I would vote for Tannoy Westminster Royal Gold Reference as a drop-in replacement for Zu.

 

[Zero000]

. . . or the long-awaited Zu Dominance.

Actually, I would vote for Tannoy Westminster Royal Gold Reference as a drop-in replacement for Zu.

Yeah maybe more to Marc's liking of cone speakers.

Anyway, something far more domineering is most definitely required Ron, I agree.

 

[bonzo75]

Guys he doesn't want to upgrade. He wants to convert us to Zus, just coz. That's the name of the game

 

[Lagonda]

Marc.

The next upgrade is your speakers. You need much more radiating area from the speakers in a room that size.

Think multiple large woofers from 20 plus Hz up, high quality mid range units and excellent tweeters.

That room could astound you.

I would have a very serious think about what I am saying. Source components, small time tweaks and room treatments are not the answer short term for a room that size.

Duos would do well in there. Trios too. I know you like them. Take the plunge.

Duettas could also be killer. These latest clamps really consolidate the Duetta and Scinitilla that have them (read one pair) as a crazy good speaker.

I would rate the volume capability of Avantgarde speakers in there as more than capable of filling the space.

He needs a set of Bill's horns, perfect radiation pattern for that room, and he already loves the sound of them ! Bill gets free back-treatment for the rest of his life, and relentless advertising in the bargain ! And Marc can keep the Zu's as his an hers caskets for him and Ra in the far away future !

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's a good thing I have you guys on the case. You can all do the daydreaming, and plotting, and virtual spending of my hard-earned, that I just don't have the time to do myself Lol.

 

[pjwd]

Marc, I found it was very difficult to find a good speaker position when I removed all the sound treatment and eliminated tow in. But the result was very well worth the effort.

Have you ever experimented with moving your speakers away from the sidewalls and pointing them straightahead? You may find the hardness changes and then when you remove the sound treatment the sound will open up and sound more natural.

Ignore the advice if you’ve already tried it. Perhaps your speakers sound best pointed right at you and spread wide apart in the room.

Peter
with Marc's low ceiling it would be very unlikely that not dealing with early ceiling reflections would help, particularly as the cathedral ceiling virtually doubles the problem , focusing reflections on the listener.
The rest of the dimensions are large enough to not be critical I would have thought but a few judicious tweaks may help.
If he room is quite soundproof, low bass absorption may help to avoid long reverberation times and clean up the bottom end.
In principal I agree the less treatments the better.
I suspect "the no toe in" approach might have a lot to do with off axis response of speakers. As you probably know O'Toole and Linkwitz ( and B&K back in the 50s) believed folks prefer a slight roll off in the top end which generally is what you get listening off axis if speaker is flat on axis.
Moving the speakers closer together helps reduce impact of sidewall reflections so its all different ways of dealing with the basic physics of it all - optimising our own particular trade offs

my 2 bobs worth

Phil

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hi Phil...2 bobs was a bargain for the excellent advice you gave me, Lol.
There's no doubt the room geometry could have been an absolute disaster, particularly the low points at eaves extremities.
However, the room was pretty good untreated, a full upgrade over my older near square/half cube 29x27x13.
And conservative treatments have smoothed low level hardness even more.
At one point, I was close to serious consideration of more extensive use of Acustica Applicata DaaDs, but I now believe this would have been OTT, and a potential overdampening of the room. And prohibitively expensive.
Now my remaining Q is whether to stick with purely absorption at front/side walls.
Or a subtle combination of absorption/diffusion.
Plus some more effective corner bass traps.

 

[pjwd]

Hi Phil...2 bobs was a bargain for the excellent advice you gave me, Lol.
There's no doubt the room geometry could have been an absolute disaster, particularly the low points at eaves extremities.
However, the room was pretty good untreated, a full upgrade over my older near square/half cube 29x27x13.
And low level treatments have smoothed low level hardness even more.
At one point, I was close to serious consideration of more extensive use of Acustica Applicata DaaDs, but I now believe this would have been OTT, and a potential overdampening of the room. And prohibitively expensive.
Now my remaining Q is whether to stick with purely absorption at front/side walls.
Or a subtle combination of absorption/diffusion.
Plus some more effective corner bass traps.

Marc
It would be intersting to remove what you have and the add it back in steps ( assuming its easy) just to get an idea of what it is doing then reinstall it at the appropropriate angles to prevent the resultant first reflection hitting your listening position
Bass traps need to be be low level only so they dont suck out mid bass energy that is not a part of the reverberation problem ... assuming you have one
Phil

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I didn't think I had any real issues with the new room. But my good audio buddy Blue58 here highlighted some phasiness in my stereo image, and re-introduction of my GIK absorbers on front wall really helped with that.

I'm not gonna remove anything I've just put up, very happy with the improved sound.

 

[pjwd]

Well, I didn't think I had any real issues with the new room. But my good audio buddy Blue58 here highlighted some phasiness in my stereo image, and re-introduction of my GIK absorbers on front wall really helped with that.

I'm not gonna remove anything I've just put up, very happy with the improved sound.

Fair enough .. easy to go down the rabbit hole

 

[Lagonda]

Marc is already so far down the Rabbit Hole, that the rabbits he is encountering all speak cantonese !

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's my little safe space down there, and the acoustics are just fine.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Latest upgrade with the eaves absorbers is proving to be a really unexpected bonus.

The feeling of opened up stage depth with tonally warmer and more textured sound is both making for greater resolution of small stereo cues, more micro finesse to the sound, greater palpability, and ability to listen with zero fatigue.

My Zus have always rewarded long sessions, but something in the reduction of spurious eaves reflections w these PETs has made the listening experience both more intensive and more relaxed.
Critically, CD is really benefitting from that extra degree less whitishness/steeliness in the sound, LP from greater mids clarity, leading to a way more holistic experience, the room and system further out of the way.

A good example is one of my fave LPs of the 90s, Kings X "Gretchen Goes To Nebraska". Its one of the most soulful alt rock albums, but can be a dirge sonically.

There's a passage twds the end of the second track "Over My Head" where the band's wall of sound power trio excursion drops away to hard handclaps, simple percussion and piano, and swelling choir. A really simple, stark acoustic. For the first time I'm hearing thru to the back of the studio, and the space around the piano, plus reverb on this, vocals, and hand claps.

This is massively boosting the impression of how this must have sounded in the studio when the band recorded the track, not just the flatter more distant perspective I've had listening to this track in the past.

Moments like this make the whole venture of system and room optimisation so rewarding.

 

[spiritofmusic]

One remaining factor w my recent rejuvenating of SQ.
Music is seemingly more present, more dynamic.
I've taken to dropping my volume a few notches.
With no negatives on definition, quiet to loud contrasts.
Texture and palpability maintained, as well as treble energy, at lower levels.

Some thoughts here.
Change of pre amp tubes reducing grey overlaid grunge is allowing greater tonal color density, information retrieval.
Bocchinos IECs to Sablon Elites pwr cords on my SETs is reducing noise floor releasing greater dynamics, contrast, low level info more audible.
PETs panels resulting in reduced reflections from eaves, reducing conflicting acoustics upping intelligibility in sound.

The end result is this huge bonus...more relaxed listening, while subjectively louder and more dynamic, at same time full contrast in whisper to shout levels, meaning no sameness/homogeneity imposed on the sound.

Zus were already a hugely dynamic, immersive listen. This extra "burstiness" or "dynamic shove" is making them even more compelling where they naturally excel, and this is in addition to the greater levels of subtlety, openness, and introspection I've achieved with changes in the last few months.

Subtle, open, introspective...not words in the past that I associated w Zu in my system. Now, these words are very relevant.

 

[Zero000]

Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu Zu.

Zu.

What was that you say?

Zu.

These Zu things might catch on you know.

Just keep saying Zu.

Posted purely because I didn't think the Zu intensity was high enough.

Know what I am saying?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I do own 'em.
There'd be no point me going Duetta Duetta Duetta etc.
Anyhow, thanks for the multiple Zu namecheck, Sean Casey will be v happy.

 

[Lagonda]

Marc someone just posted a picture of you and Ra in the Comedy thread !