Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England

[Audiophile Bill]

AG's own, airtight 300b integrated, and the AN 300b integrated which did not drive them properly.

I think the soundstage was very good on orchestra in terms of width and detail. It was like a large orchestra stretched from left to right like a real one, good separation of instruments. The bass density was excellent as well as the easy bass flow, rise and fall from soft to high.

Where trios lack for me personally is a bit on tone. I tried listening to them (first it was esoteric CD player, then when Ron and I were there they had an AN 5 dac after the esoteric transport in the chain). Also thought moving their amps to airtight would alleviate that issue but it didn't. I think SS amps can be quite exciting on the trios. They are quite big, detailed, extremely dynamic and bassy. The mids and high could be slightly improved. That said if one did not play chamber and solo pieces it would be fine.

Regarding soundstaging it was not layered behind the speakers, more wide and a bit in front, but it is a different way of listening compared to panels or cones

Would be good to hear good vinyl pressings on a good analogue front end with Trios.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, GTricker used to run TW Acoustic AC3 on his Trios. Not w the Basshorns, only the standard cone subs. They're gone, now to be replaced w the Cessaro Liszts.

Not sure where in UK you can hear Trios w Basshorns on a tt.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, GTricker used to run TW Acoustic AC3 on his Trios. Not w the Basshorns, only the standard cone subs. They're gone, now to be replaced w the Cessaro Liszts.

Not sure where in UK you can hear Trios w Basshorns on a tt.

Probably Munich is the only vague chance for me I guess.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't think AG ever show Trios at Munich. And never on tubes or analog.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I don't think AG ever show Trios at Munich. And never on tubes or analog.

They almost always show Trios Marc but usually with their SS amps and digital

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ok, the AG room I went into featured the Uno and Zero.

 

[bonzo75]

They almost always show Trios Marc but usually with their SS amps and digital

Also were with Vitus once. Marc has been to Munich only once at that time they were not there because they started wanted to avoid posts of comparison to the Zus, so pulled them off

 

[spiritofmusic]

That's good business sense. All they need to do next is make sure you don't get to the room playing Duos.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, the one time I heard Trios was 7-8 years ago. It was my first proper experience re horns, and left a big impression on me. My takeaway that day was that dynamics and presence were scary good and exhilarating, but the image was too big, somewhat overblown and overly colorful.

The horns I would take after listening to a few demos now, are the Liszts. For me, these feel more right in terms of image size, more intimate than the Trios, and reasonably full range.

They've sounded v different in 3 different systems which suggests they're hugely transparent to the system feeding them.

I do love Barry's AG Duos, but the extension of bass to c.30Hz without need for cones in the Liszts would be the dealbreaker.

Sferas were fascinating too, to hear them w their OB subs would be interesting. Pnoes are pretty unique, but since what I heard mainly that day was piano recordings, I can't draw any conclusions on them.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Marc, I have the solution for you! Buy a pair of Tune Audio Avatons, and place them just to the outside of each Zu. You don’t have to change a single component.

Lucky for you you have a huge listening room which is large enough to accommodate both pairs of speakers. You will be able to perform direct A/B comparisons between the Avatons and the Zus. All questions which have been gnawing at you endlessly will be answered definitively.

If there is a clear winner between the speakers you can sell the loser. Otherwise keep both pairs of speakers and have the best of both worlds.

I will send you a bill for this brilliant advice.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, as with all "great" ideas, there's just one problem with your idea. Well, actually a few, but who's counting?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Second day listening to Bocchino connectors upgrades to Sablon Reservas ICs in my system.

Cdp has a nice uptick overall. But the serious lift is w my tt. Vinyl is totally compelling, the drop in noise floor is allowing a whole lot more musical message to emerge.

Musical is the key word here. I've had cables installed in the past where more info was present, but at the expense of ruthlessness or a kind of grey neutrality. Not the Bocchino Sablons. Music emerges w greater dynamics from soft to loud (live John Abercrombie ECM lp, where gentle guitar chords morph into muscular jazz trio propulsion really impressively), and way more tone colour and timbral accuracy (Stephen Bishop solo piano on Philips label 1969 Bartok "Mikrokosmos/Out Of Doors", where lilting piano sounds warm and heavy piano key strikes are realistically percussive, both techniques colorful and authentic, if my growing reference to live unamplified is anything to go by).

Because my analog setup is vastly impvd already, it's way easier to pick up the benefit of these big changes. And the Bocchinos are so compelling in my system.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Three visits from audiophiles pencilled in.

Barry/Blue58, who has made critical but practical comments invaluable in getting me to where I currently am.

Mani/Manisandher, owner of the impressive Tune Audio Animas rig I heard recently.

A couple of guys also visiting soon, one w Aqua/Thrax system, one w Electrocompaniet/Lamm/Wilson system. We've all recently heard an all Ares Cerat system w Symphonias horns, so plenty of data points to discuss.

I don't expect any conversion to the Zu cause. I'm hoping these guys get a flavour of what I've tried to achieve over 22 years of upgrading and optimising, enjoy the music here, and most importantly, have a good time talking audio and plenty of other stuff.

 

[Blue58]

Hi folks,

I’d promised to return to Marc’s lovely chapel to listen to his system after it had undergone numerous changes particularly to his vinyl replay. I think Marc has outlined what he has upgraded in previous posts so I won’t describe them here. I understand Marc has also installed premium tubes in his preamp and upgraded to Bocchino terminated Sablon cables in certain places (more to come I’m sure).

After my slightly disparaging comments on my previous visit, or should I say constructive criticism, I am now happy to report that the Zu fronted system is sounding very good, no, not horn good, but very good, especially on Marc’s preferred choice of music.

The sound now has correct tonality, at least to my ears, and his bass levels are perfect for his room.
Highs now fall into place rather than being shrill or disconnected as before.

Surprisingly, for my ears are accustomed to digitally produced music, I did not particularly notice any vinyl signature bar a slight softening on a few tracks compared to their hi-res digital equivalents. This was most noticeable on the Coltrane - New Directions album. A highlight of the day was the final track we played, Yes - Sound Chaser, I’ve never heard it sound so dynamic, spacious and vibrant though it still retained that metallic quality it always has. The digital equivalent is almost unbearable imo.

Here’s a list of what we spun, yes, actually spun, provided by Marc :-

LZ/LZ3,Jap pressing/Immigrant Song
Yes/Relayer,Jap pressing/Sound Chaser
Bach/Complete Concerti, Murray Hill Records 1972/Concerto in C Maj for 3 Harpsichords, Concerto
for Violin and Oboe
Miles Davis/Nefertiti, CBS UK first pressing/Fall
John Abercrombie/Timeless, ECM/Red And Orange
Brand X/Is There Anything About, CBS original UK pressing/Ipanaemia
Al Di Meola/Tirami Su, Manhattan records/Maraba
John Coltrane/Giant Steps, original Atlantic UK pressing/Giant Steps,
Coltrane '58 The Prestige Recordings boxset/By The Numbers,
Coltrane '63 New Directions boxset/Untitled Original 11386 Take 1
Queen/Queen I, Jap pressing/Keep Yourself Alive, Doing All Right
Jeff Beck/Wired, original UK pressing/Goodbye Pork Pie Hat
--
Cd
Steve Morse/Split Decision, Magna Carta records/Heightened Awareness
James Blake/Overgrown, Atlas Records/Overgrown

Some of the above had a great expansive soundstage and an organic sound. The Bach in particular sounded very similar to what I’ve heard in a concert hall. The Jeff Beck sounded younger than it actually is as it was so vibrant. Now here is where I started to pick up on a minor shortcoming as the guitar appeared to bloom towards each speaker after each note. We played another Bach piece and the harpsichord sounded in both channels, just a little too wide for my liking.

I’ve suggested to Marc to perhaps toe in the speakers a fraction more to give the centre image more solidity or move the seating position 6 inches further back effectively changing the toe in angle in the process.

Other highlights for me were Immigrant Song, digital doesn’t do Led Zeppelin justice, and John Coltrane ‘58 sounded sublime. Downers, Queen sounded awful, I’m not a fan and it was as though it was recorded underwater, and the Miles Davis failed to impress, not enough density to the horn.

We played the two CD cuts to test the bass level with the James Blake, perfect, any higher and it would be overblown, and the Steve Morse was the disc that on previous visit appeared to be very ‘phasey’ with different parts strewn randomly across the soundstage. Now it was as a whole and made perfect sense.

So, Marc has finally nailed his Zus and it’s the first time I’ve truly enjoyed listening to them. He is to be commended for remaining tenacious and true to his personal goal over the past few years and the system plays his personal choice of music with aplomb.

Congratulations Marc, you should be very proud of how far you’ve come and enjoy your music without worry for years to come.

Blue58

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thanks Barry, and the cheque is in the post LOL.

Getting yr seal of approval is the cherry on the cake of my own personal satisfaction in maxxing out and refining my sound.

I'll freely admit I'm as stubborn as the next person, and things could have ended up down a particularly blind alley of blinkered thinking and a small fortune spent w frustration and "what if..." as the result.

Indeed, when I first visited you to hear yr Audio Aero cdp/45 tubes/AG Duos setup some 5-6 years ago, was totally wowed, and returned home to my system that now seemed deficient in so many ways, I was confused to say the least.

Compounded by yr initial visit to me in which my system shortcomings were easily listed by you. Ked's comments were also pretty much on the money.

Two things are now totally undeniable in retrospect. My old space was a bitch acoustically, it's one advantage (space enough for music to breathe) totally countered by many disadvantages (strangling the music so ironically wiping out my only advantage).

And the new room is SUCH a blessing. Indeed, and Barry agrees here, it's such a boon that it needs v little extra acoustic treatments help, and is the key to me turning things around 179° (I'm not so bold to say 180° just yet LOL).

So the room is like the proverbial maximum upgrade, a true blank canvas to allow my system (or any other good system here) to shine.

And what it's done is two things. Firstly reconnected me to why I love the rim drive/air arm w SETs w Zus signature, and allowing me to easily ascertain what ancilliaries changes optimise the sound further.

So I can easily hear where things like Shun Mooks and IsoAcoustics Gaias don't help or actively degrade the sound, and where Stacores, Sablon Reservas/Elites, Arya Audio Revopods, and specialist Tubulus DB25 cable wrangles better and better sound.

The other big critical thing that I've finally got right, is properly setting up my tt. I really ought to have my analog stripes ripped off me for not going the extra mile, and always giving the verdict to digital. Big namecheck to Audiophile Bill for pushing me and helping me to get this right.

So, over two decades into this pretty crazy hobby, and a stupid amount of cash spent, and brain cells burnt obsessing about my sound, I can finally say I'm really content listening to music, no changes planned for at least 12 months when I'll look at completing my Sablon Elites Bocchino pwr cords loom, and then get that streaming solution sorted.

Thanks again Barry, your "say it as it is" opinions have often left me a bit insecure, but your constructive criticisms have all come thru positively. And to Bill for whipping my analog into shape.

 

[Zero000]

Wowser what a turn around.

Must read back and find out what has actually changed.

Or did Marc throw you a back hander?

EDIT: missed your cheque in the post comment, Marc, before posting this. All is now clear

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, Barry REALLY wants a Taiko Extreme. Maybe he can afford it more now. I'm too much a lady to reveal the truth...

Justin, not so much turnaround as getting a little more out of each bit of the system.

The room is the decisive factor, because from this springs everything else. So I've heard systems in small rooms that really work like yrs, Barry, Mani w Animas. Medium size rooms like Paul and his DD tt/Concert Fidelity hybrids/ML Spires.

But I've heard some abject failures in big rooms, and so £50k spent on this space could have been a big white elephant and gargantuan waste of cash.

Getting the room right has allowed every subsequent spending decision and need to optimise very easy to ascertain. And getting my vinyl right is the other big breakthrough for me to "complete" my system, and here its the Stacore Adv platform (now on a 50kg slate stand to get the tt 12" off the floor), Sablon Bocchino Reserva IC from Straingauge to pre, and Bill's expert setup advice, that has all come together.

Put it this way, my classical listening went way down the pecking order, but going to live classical dozens of times a year, getting my tt right, means I often reach for classical first thing now. In a system w Zus, ffs!!!

 

[Zero000]

Classical fan now, predominantly?

You and Ked should get married. You'd make a lovely couple. Just keep me away from the domestics!!!

I'm still sane and don't go near the stuff...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Justin, just who is gonna be Best Man? When we divorce, he can have my prog cds, and I can have his collectable vinyl.

On second thoughts, maybe not LOL.

Re listening to classical, I kinda know what I like, and it sounds way more open and communicative now.

It's taken a fair amount of time to get here.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Barry left me w the suggestion to play around w spkrs toe in. He felt that toeing in more would tighten the central image (despite possible reduction in overall stage width as a result).

I sit about 14' from the Zus, and have now nudged them so I just see a sliver of inner walls. There does seem to be a little more focus and density to the image, less awareness of each spkr seperately. I think I'll keep it like this for the time being.