WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

[FrantzM]

Got me to think I did audition a JBL somewhere in NYC about 2 years ago. I was sincerely shocked how complete the music was.... then my prejudices came back full blast and I completely forgot about that even to the extent i never related it ...

 

[esldude]

Got me to think I did audition a JBL somewhere in NYC about 2 years ago. I was sincerely shocked how complete the music was.... then my prejudices came back full blast and I completely forgot about that even to the extent i never related it ...

That is quite interesting FrantzM. In the last several years what little audiophile press JBL and related products have gotten has been close to universally good. Those mags that do measurements also showed excellent measured results. Excellent subjective sound according to reviews and excellent objective properties. One would think they would sell more than they do.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I suspect if you put us all in a room with coffee, a few biscuits, cakes and some nice sounds and music, we'd have this resolved in about 5 minutes.

Should we carry a poll and a debate to chose the the equipment needed for the nice sounds?

 

[jkeny]

Should we carry a poll and a debate to chose the the equipment needed for the nice sounds?

We first need a poll of coffee or tea
My mother said a cup of tea was a good way to work things out so that's my vote based on empirical evidence

 

[stehno]

Smart people they walk among us, and they get stoned by us if we cannot level to their higher learning caliber by asking the right questions to challenge the science. It's not Amir's fault that we are unable to challenge the findings of his team/organization of people he works with.

Are you speaking of book smart? If so, I suspect it usually doesn’t take much to defend the status quo by parroting historical science books or the internet. If you are speaking of a resourceful intellect with knowledge and understanding that brings significant sonic benefit over and above the status quo, well, I’ve nothing against Amir as he seems to be a gentleman, nor do I really know him, but aside from defending or substantiating existing technologies, I’ve yet to see any such benefits (they may exist but I've just not seen them).

As for challenging Amir/his team’s findings? What’s to challenge? That Amir can hear a difference between Redbook and higher rez recordings? I’m glad he says he can as that would imply he has ears to hear. Although I’m unsure his test included discerning this difference via a playback system of any kind. Even if Amir couldn’t hear the difference, well he’d be far from the first. But that’s another subject of importance.

IOW, I wouldn’t hesitate challenging Amir or anybody of his nature. Assuming he had anything of significance related to serious negative or positive performance matters worth challenging. If such "facts" have little / nothing to do with performance I wouldn't waste my time. Even without any real science background I like to think I’ve already sufficiently refuted Meridian’s Bob Stuart regarding IMO his nonsensical and impossible performance claims of his new MQA format. If only by explaining high-rez formats limitations and a format's role in its part of the vineyard, that Stuart has barked up the wrong technology tree (formats) if he had any hope of achieving the dramatic performance levels he claims.

It doesn’t always take science to refute “scientific fact”. If that was true, we’d all be convinced bumble bees can’t fly and that global warming is real . To refute those impassioned with and by science, often times it only takes logic, common sense, sufficient experience, and ultimately be able to substantiate one’s claims by a reasonably well-thought-out or better playback system’s level of musicality, which is and should always be the final arbiter of all things in high-end audio.

I’d like to think if anybody is so dogmatic or so impassioned by a given scientific “fact” related to performance, it’s because they didn’t just “hear” it on paper. IMO, those who cannot substantiate their performance claims audibly via a reasonably well-thought-out or better playback system, are really nothing more than theorists and speculators, which is fine so long as they understand that.

I do find it regrettable to see so many who seem to think the science profession and their “findings” are above reproach. Almost as though they’ve cornered the market on virtue, objectivity, and performing real due diligence. What they fail to understand is that just like every other profession, the science profession has it’s share of also-rans, hacks, and bush-leaguers, including those unwilling, unable, or otherwise lack the wherewithal to perform real due diligence.

Lastly, the only real concern I have with some-to-many of those impassioned with “scientific facts” is that when overly-encouraged or left unchecked it usually doesn’t take long before they become overly-impassioned i.e. overly dogmatic and close-minded to the point where science becomes high-end audio’s end-game rather than audible performance or using such “facts” (if they are indeed facts) as a foundation or a spring board to even greater discoveries. It’s usually these same dogmatic overly-impassioned scientific types who eventually conclude we’ve already discovered everything there is to know about audio reproduction and eventually abandon the use of their “untrustworthy” ears altogether and rely solely on their “trustworthy” eyes to determine levels of audio performance. And before you know it, they’re authoring books entitled “The Audio Expert” and sitting on expert panels at AES conventions to share everything they've learned about audio performance just using their eyes. Go figure.

 

[ddk]

Got me to think I did audition a JBL somewhere in NYC about 2 years ago. I was sincerely shocked how complete the music was.... then my prejudices came back full blast and I completely forgot about that even to the extent i never related it ...

What kind of prejudice are we talking about? Hope they didn't demo the speakers with Levinson electronics.
david

 

[still-one]

We first need a poll of coffee or tea
My mother said a cup of tea was a good way to work things out so that's my vote based on empirical evidence

Make sure the poll includes the option for neither.

 

[McLennan]

Neither is a good option
There are a lot of german scientific studies that beer is also good to resolve the problems intensely discussed in this forum, but only up to a amount of two glasses. The studies prove that if you raise the amount of glasses, the discussions will get fierce, also violence might occur after 7 pints. This was tested in various room sizes, with different forum members (Car Forums, Camera Forums etc.), with different sorts of beer. I'll post some graphs, if I find them.
I find it sad that the discussions get so fierce in this forum, and that people are leaving the forum because their opinion is apparently not accepted. There is a good album by the british Band Manic Street Preachers (Title might fit to some of our forum members as well): "This is my Truth Tell me Yours" Why should it be so important that the other forum Member is 'wrong', it's only audio science.
Science is badly needed to develop speakers and audio gear, but I'll never walk up to my high end audio dealers and ask them to see the frequency response first , measured in a completely different environment.
There are numerous scientific studies that most people can't tell the difference between MP3 and CD 16bit/44khz. Should I get rid of my gear in a garage sale because of this scientific truth?
I've heard quite a few systems with a complete different set up than my system I could also happily live with, like an AudiNote Tube system with high efficient AudioNote speakers, sounds wonderful. I personally prefer Magico and SolidState gear, my best friend prefers Wilson with Accuphase, no need to argue, we solve that problem always with the above mentioned method, two or some more glasses of german beer, and lots of fun.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Neither is a good option
There are a lot of german scientific studies that beer is also good to resolve the problems intensely discussed in this forum, but only up to a amount of two glasses. The studies prove that if you raise the amount of glasses, the discussions will get fierce, also violence might occur after 7 pints. This was tested in various room sizes, with different forum members (Car Forums, Camera Forums etc.), with different sorts of beer. I'll post some graphs, if I find them.
I find it sad that the discussions get so fierce in this forum, and that people are leaving the forum because their opinion is apparently not accepted. There is a good album by the british Band Manic Street Preachers (Title might fit to some of our forum members as well): "This is my Truth Tell me Yours" Why should it be so important that the other forum Member is 'wrong', it's only audio science.
Science is badly needed to develop speakers and audio gear, but I'll never walk up to my high end audio dealers and ask them to see the frequency response first , measured in a completely different environment.
There are numerous scientific studies that most people can't tell the difference between MP3 and CD 16bit/44khz. Should I get rid of my gear in a garage sale because of this scientific truth?
I've heard quite a few systems with a complete different set up than my system I could also happily live with, like an AudiNote Tube system with high efficient AudioNote speakers, sounds wonderful. I personally prefer Magico and SolidState gear, my best friend prefers Wilson with Accuphase, no need to argue, we solve that problem always with the above mentioned method, two or some more glasses of german beer, and lots of fun.

Haha! I love this post! Well said!

 

[NorthStar]

Are you speaking of book smart? If so, I suspect it usually doesn’t take much to defend the status quo by parroting historical science books or the internet. If you are speaking of a resourceful intellect with knowledge and understanding that brings significant sonic benefit over and above the status quo, well, I’ve nothing against Amir as he seems to be a gentleman, nor do I really know him, but aside from defending or substantiating existing technologies, I’ve yet to see any such benefits (they may exist but I've just not seen them).

As for challenging Amir/his team’s findings? What’s to challenge? That Amir can hear a difference between Redbook and higher rez recordings? I’m glad he says he can as that would imply he has ears to hear. Although I’m unsure his test included discerning this difference via a playback system of any kind. Even if Amir couldn’t hear the difference, well he’d be far from the first. But that’s another subject of importance.

IOW, I wouldn’t hesitate challenging Amir or anybody of his nature. Assuming he had anything of significance related to serious negative or positive performance matters worth challenging. If such "facts" have little / nothing to do with performance I wouldn't waste my time. Even without any real science background I like to think I’ve already sufficiently refuted Meridian’s Bob Stuart regarding IMO his nonsensical and impossible performance claims of his new MQA format. If only by explaining high-rez formats limitations and a format's role in its part of the vineyard, that Stuart has barked up the wrong technology tree (formats) if he had any hope of achieving the dramatic performance levels he claims.

It doesn’t always take science to refute “scientific fact”. If that was true, we’d all be convinced bumble bees can’t fly and that global warming is real . To refute those impassioned with and by science, often times it only takes logic, common sense, sufficient experience, and ultimately be able to substantiate one’s claims by a reasonably well-thought-out or better playback system’s level of musicality, which is and should always be the final arbiter of all things in high-end audio.

I’d like to think if anybody is so dogmatic or so impassioned by a given scientific “fact” related to performance, it’s because they didn’t just “hear” it on paper. IMO, those who cannot substantiate their performance claims audibly via a reasonably well-thought-out or better playback system, are really nothing more than theorists and speculators, which is fine so long as they understand that.

I do find it regrettable to see so many who seem to think the science profession and their “findings” are above reproach. Almost as though they’ve cornered the market on virtue, objectivity, and performing real due diligence. What they fail to understand is that just like every other profession, the science profession has it’s share of also-rans, hacks, and bush-leaguers, including those unwilling, unable, or otherwise lack the wherewithal to perform real due diligence.

Lastly, the only real concern I have with some-to-many of those impassioned with “scientific facts” is that when overly-encouraged or left unchecked it usually doesn’t take long before they become overly-impassioned i.e. overly dogmatic and close-minded to the point where science becomes high-end audio’s end-game rather than audible performance or using such “facts” (if they are indeed facts) as a foundation or a spring board to even greater discoveries. It’s usually these same dogmatic overly-impassioned scientific types who eventually conclude we’ve already discovered everything there is to know about audio reproduction and eventually abandon the use of their “untrustworthy” ears altogether and rely solely on their “trustworthy” eyes to determine levels of audio performance. And before you know it, they’re authoring books entitled “The Audio Expert” and sitting on expert panels at AES conventions to share everything they've learned about audio performance just using their eyes. Go figure.

Those are interesting perceptions.

* What I'm thinking is this: The best science is the one that question it. ...The best sound system in the world, the best set of measurements, the best researches and analyses in audio reproduction, the best room's acoustics, the best emotional impact.
Don't read me wrong; I have the strongest respect for everyone, and I consider each one of us with something great to contribute.
...Your reply is one of them.

 

[NorthStar]

? A technical off-topic simple question: How do you re-size a quote, like making it smaller (size 1)?

I can do it here in my post, and any size that I want, but I cannot re-size a "quote" smaller?

 

[NorthStar]

Test only

? A technical off-topic simple question: How do you re-size a quote, like making it smaller (size 1)?

I can do it here in my post, and any size that I want, but I cannot re-size a "quote" smaller?

Just re-checking.

EDIT: Yes it works now; I found the way to do it. ...It has to be the text of the quote only; it cannot be @ the beginning and closing of:

On other websites (forums) it can be inserted before and after the "Quote" brackets, but not here @ WBF. ...Which is no big deal @ all, when you know how to insert the "Size" feature (brackets)...within (inside) the "Quote" brackets...and not outside of them.

 

[Steve Williams]

? A technical off-topic simple question: How do you re-size a quote, like making it smaller (size 1)?

I can do it here in my post, and any size that I want, but I cannot re-size a "quote" smaller?

Just re-checking.

EDIT: Yes it works now; I found the way to do it. ...It has to be the text of the post only; it cannot be @ the beginning and closing of:

On other websites (forums) it can be inserted before and after the "Quote" brackets, but not here @ WBF. ...Which is no big deal @ all, when you know how to insert the "Size" feature (brackets)...within (inside) the "Quote" brackets...and not outside of them.

Bob

please play down here rather than disrupting a thread

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?274-Test-Forum

Thank you for caring

 

[the sound of Tao]

Haha! I love this post! Well said!

+1 'This is my truth tell me yours' should be our theme song and motto on the forum. Its great hearing about what makes other people enjoy music especially when they can communicate it in a way that we can understand. There is no one truth in audio gear except 'sounds better with beer'.

 

[Don Hills]

+ ... There is no one truth in audio gear except 'sounds better with beer'.

Sadly, the arguments over which is best in beer are no less vehement and long running than those over which is best in audio.

 

[BlueFox]

Sadly, the arguments over which is best in beer are no less vehement and long running than those over which is best in audio.

At least we are talking real science now. Most any beer will help in clarifying the movement of air molecules, and the underlying electrons that stimulated those molecules.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Going off topic to beer in audio is probably even deadlier and more divisive move than swapping out to my favourite ice cream... at the Stereonet forum the thread 'Beer - proof that god loves us' has been raging unabated since early 2011 with over 1100 posts and the last post was only just 28 minutes ago. Some audio debates are never going to die down.