WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

[Johnny Vinyl]

I doubt he has the capacity to.

 

[DonH50]

Really sad when Amir and Steve are sniping at each other. How old is WBF, are we to the 7-year itch?

I do think a lot of this is more style than substance, e.g. posting style and lack of ability to read expressions or see body language over the 'net. I have been chastised for being too arrogant on AVS, but I think it has more to do with posting hurriedly and probably something that has been asked a hundred times before. Or maybe I was just having a bad day.

 

[Steve Williams]

It is all about tone and nothing to do with substance Don. All of us enjoy the science but not in the tone with which it is presented. It has become impossible for me or anyone to get him to see and understand that. I'm a grown man Don. I'm interested in the good of WBF. this thread has been destructive to the very core since it went up. Shall I just all of the members who have left because of this overbearing supercilious attitude. A simple act of apology and understanding would bring this to resolution to everyone's satisfaction we seem to be seeing someone who can only see the world one way.... His own. It is sad agent e two founders feel so differently. This is not why I founded WBF for there to be but one opinion, Amir's and everyone else's. It is all about the tone and nothing about the content and an ego larger than that of Microsoft. I have tried my best offline and when I read members' posts that they have not felt welcome here I take exception.

 

[DonH50]

Hmmm... A response to that needs a book or nothing. I'll pass. I do appreciate your response, Steve. As for Amir, I have known many people with that style of posting (and speaking) and do not take it as attacking personally, but have not read everything and obviously others do take it that way. (To all: Please don't quote examples at this point.)

I found it interesting to see how the membership answered the poll questions, but all the posts since remind me of the Hatfield and McCoys Combined Family Picnic.

BTW, these same sort of issues come up on the trumpet forum I help moderate. Always going to be folk on completely opposite sides, very passionately so, who argue from a position of certainty in their own competence and come across (rightly or wrongly) as arrogant and challenging to the other side. People come and go, sometimes good people, but by large they return or others take their place.

I probably have not been around WBF enough recently. I backed off because it seemed any objective viewpoint was quickly shouted down and I felt "attacked" (too strong a word, but you get the idea). Clearly subjective viewpoints have received the same treatment, perhaps as much by interpretation as intent. I don't know. I've tried to stay out of it but it's hard when it is something I am really interested in but realize questions are not welcome. My background spans objective and subjective (engineer and a musician, after all) so I tend to look for the reason "why" when a subjective opinion is offered that contradicts what I think I know. Sometimes just asking the questions is treated as an attack, something unlikely to happen in person when one can quickly respond and make clear the intent behind the questions.

I should probably just shut up and stay in the tech area but them's my thoughts - Don

 

[DaveC]

Hmmm... A response to that needs a book or nothing. I'll pass. I do appreciate your response, Steve. As for Amir, I have known many people with that style of posting (and speaking) and do not take it as attacking personally, but have not read everything and obviously others do take it that way. (To all: Please don't quote examples at this point.)

I found it interesting to see how the membership answered the poll questions, but all the posts since remind me of the Hatfield and McCoys Combined Family Picnic.

BTW, these same sort of issues come up on the trumpet forum I help moderate. Always going to be folk on completely opposite sides, very passionately so, who argue from a position of certainty in their own competence and come across (rightly or wrongly) as arrogant and challenging to the other side. People come and go, sometimes good people, but by large they return or others take their place.

I probably have not been around WBF enough recently. I backed off because it seemed any objective viewpoint was quickly shouted down and I felt "attacked" (too strong a word, but you get the idea). Clearly subjective viewpoints have received the same treatment, perhaps as much by interpretation as intent. I don't know. I've tried to stay out of it but it's hard when it is something I am really interested in but realize questions are not welcome. My background spans objective and subjective (engineer and a musician, after all) so I tend to look for the reason "why" when a subjective opinion is offered that contradicts what I think I know. Sometimes just asking the questions is treated as an attack, something unlikely to happen in person when one can quickly respond and make clear the intent behind the questions.

I should probably just shut up and stay in the tech area but them's my thoughts - Don

I agree

 

[NorthStar]

before I/we go further down this road of (insert word of choice here), I want to say that I reached out this morning to Amir and we are getting together next week when he is back in town to talk.

time for music.

Best news today Mike.

 

[NorthStar]

Listen exactly from 0:18 to 0:33 ... in particular the last sentence ... from 0:23 to 0:33 ... only lasts ten seconds. :b

 

[BlueFox]

An old proverb is perfect here....

If someone stops you on the street and calls you an idiot, you too and ask yourself "am I the idiot or are you the idiot" but when 100 people stop you on the street and call you an idiot, you must stop and ask yourself, "am I really an idiot"

LOL. I ask that myself everyday when I think of the money I have spent.

 

[NorthStar]

Last weekend I was out in a spectator boat watching my daughter race in a large regatta of a hundred 420 sailboats. Conditions were rough and many boats took on a lot of water. The smart sailors noticed what was happening and bailed out the water as fast as possible and continued racing. A few others just went on sailing as their boats filled with water. They dropped further and further behind to finish at the back of the fleet never realizing their boats were slowly sinking.

PeterB never learned this lesson either.

I doubt he has the capacity to.

That, you don't know for certain John; only Peter knows. ... Time is a healer. - John Lee Hooker ... R.I.P.

 

[NorthStar]

I find it hypocritical; that many people criticize others negatively instead of having the force to positively engage. ...On the topics, and not on the people on a personal level. ...And many of us we are guilty here. ...That's my view, my inside opinion.

Smart people they walk among us, and they get stoned by us if we cannot level to their higher learning caliber by asking the right questions to challenge the science.
It's not Amir's fault that we are unable to challenge the findings of his team/organization of people he works with.

Some of us we mentioned "balance" before in this very thread; balance between incomplete science and imperfect music listening/reproduction.
...In the search of improving this very delicate "balance".

The people who have been researching and exploring music reproduction, the ones with extended experience, and resources too...tools, time, money, etc.;
they all deserve our most attentive ear. ...Acousticians, speaker designers, musicians, audio reviewers, all of us passionate music lovers, audiophiles, connoisseurs of higher audio fidelity.

Is Amir's only crime to repeat himself? Lol, that's not a crime, it's a deep passion. ...We don't question other people's passion, we level with them and we advance higher with intelligence and harmony, all together.

Stereo music listening @ home needs to be scientifically measured from our ears in that same environment and from the two loudspeakers; not just one.
But one is good to be measured as a reference so that its matching partner also measures the same, for best holographic imaging.

 

[mep]

It is all about tone and nothing to do with substance Don. All of us enjoy the science but not in the tone with which it is presented. It has become impossible for me or anyone to get him to see and understand that. I'm a grown man Don. I'm interested in the good of WBF. this thread has been destructive to the very core since it went up. Shall I just all of the members who have left because of this overbearing supercilious attitude. A simple act of apology and understanding would bring this to resolution to everyone's satisfaction we seem to be seeing someone who can only see the world one way.... His own. It is sad agent e two founders feel so differently. This is not why I founded WBF for there to be but one opinion, Amir's and everyone else's. It is all about the tone and nothing about the content and an ego larger than that of Microsoft. I have tried my best offline and when I read members' posts that they have not felt welcome here I take exception.

Steve-These are all words I didn't think I would ever see from you, but they are the truth. Amir started this thread with what appeared to be good intentions at first. What I thought was supposed to be a learning experience for Amir with possibly a dose of contrition turned out to be more of the same passive/aggressive behavior that I have been seeing since I came back to WBF. Amir clearly doesn't get it and he appears to be doubling down on the behavior that is driving people away. People have been telling Amir what is bothering them about his attitude and his use of science as a bludgeon to beat people with (not to mention Harman graphs, Harman trained listeners, endless talk about MS codecs and his highly trained ears for hearing artifacts in codecs that aren't used for high-end audio and that I doubt anyone here gives a damn about), but all people are getting in return for their honesty is more of the same from Amir.

If something doesn't change and change soon, WBF will be left with the objective cheerleaders that hang on Amir's every word and are filling up Amir's PM box with messages that are egging this behavior on. And don't think for one second this isn't happening-I saw evidence of this happening first hand in the thread where Amir was bashing reviewers and I was trying to bring a dose of reality that he might possibly understand to the table which failed miserably. Someone who shall go nameless gleefully said to Amir that his PM inbox was full and he was trying to send him a PM. I quoted that person's statement to Amir and replied "I can just imagine..."

I really wanted to give WBF another chance when I came back. What I was greeted with was Amir beating me over the head about what he considered to be the sorry state of reviewers and their reviewing methods (anybody can do what reviewers do and do it without even listening to the gear says Amir) and demanded that I help turn the method of reviewing audio gear on its head in order to make Amir happy. Not to mention Amir wanted me to spend my money to buy test equipment like he did. This has all become too bazaar and surreal for me to handle.

Good luck to WBF, because in my opinion, one person is burning it into the ground. In response to what I have said, don't be surprised to see more graphs and charts come out to show how the membership has grown since Amir cranked up the passive/aggressive volume knob to 11 though.

 

[DaveC]

Are you sure some of you guys have used the internet before? Amir seems to me to have endless patience and a great passion for what he does, IMO you guys are too sensitive and reading things into what he has written that are a bit of a stretch. I think he deserves some slack.

 

[jkeny]

Are you sure some of you guys have used the internet before? Amir seems to me to have endless patience and a great passion for what he does, IMO you guys are too sensitive and reading things into what he has written that are a bit of a stretch. I think he deserves some slack.

Indeed, so do I.

 

[NorthStar]

Don't we all.

 

[esldude]

My position re the Harmon measurements is that they probably give us one part of the jigsaw about speaker preference but not the only part & maybe not even the most important part - I retain an open mind on this question.

Measurements with speakers are fairly sophisticated but still not sufficient to fully characterise them, I believe but I'm no expert in this area.

DBTs are by & large fraught with many, many issues - the Harmon ones suffer from the fact that they have eliminated so many factors that are part of our normal listening environment that they do beg questions about their applicability to normal listening. However, I know that these questions have been addressed but maybe not to the satisfaction of some people.

I agree with what you say as far as it goes. Harman's piece of the puzzle is a pretty important one. I see people all the time say trust what you hear. Well go hear some of the recent Harman products based upon this research. They are extremely good. Better than one usually expects at a given price. It would indicate just thru listening they are onto something important. I don't know that they are claiming they have it all figured out. But they have evidence of something important, and products designed upon that evidence seem to work much better than would be the case with normal design goals.

 

[jkeny]

I agree with what you say as far as it goes. Harman's piece of the puzzle is a pretty important one. I see people all the time say trust what you hear. Well go hear some of the recent Harman products based upon this research. They are extremely good. Better than one usually expects at a given price. It would indicate just thru listening they are onto something important. I don't know that they are claiming they have it all figured out. But they have evidence of something important, and products designed upon that evidence seem to work much better than would be the case with normal design goals.

Yea, could be that Harmon have captured the most important aspect of speaker design in this research, I really don't know - I'm open minded about it.
Unfortunately, I can't audition them as we don't see Harmon speakers in Ireland, AFAIK & JBL mostly is pro-audio gear, isn't it?

 

[esldude]

Yea, could be that Harmon have captured the most important aspect of speaker design in this research, I really don't know - I'm open minded about it.
Unfortunately, I can't audition them as we don't see Harmon speakers in Ireland, AFAIK & JBL mostly is pro-audio gear, isn't it?

I don't know about Ireland. In the US JBL runs the gamut of nearly everything. If you can hear some of the LSR305 monitors, give them a listen. A quite good speaker in absolute terms for peanuts. Thomann sells them and perhaps other places.

 

[jkeny]

I don't know about Ireland. In the US JBL runs the gamut of nearly everything. If you can hear some of the LSR305 monitors, give them a listen. A quite good speaker in absolute terms for peanuts. Thomann sells them and perhaps other places.

Thanks but recently got a pair of Adam Artist 6 speakers from Thomann & they sound very good. Looking at the LSR305s I probably wouldn't have bought them because of the class D amps in them - Adams have 3 50W A-B amps in each speaker but then that's just my bias from previous experience of class D amps

 

[Diapason]

I'm recently back from a week in Portugal and have spent the last couple of hours catching up on this thread. What a palaver! However, I'm struck that this whole thread reminds me of an interaction I experienced with some friends last week while abroad. One of our party said that they'd like to move to Canada, thinking they'd be happier there. I asked them to explain/justify that view and in short order I was being told by my wife that I was too aggressive, too challenging, trying to bludgeon my friend into submission. In actuality, I thought I was having a nice (albeit lively) discussion and that if anything I was helping her to to tease out her views and lend clarity to her position! Maybe that's why I have some sympathy for Amir here, despite absolutely seeing the merit of the "other side".

I'm a newbie, but it pains me to see founding members and other personalities leaving. Mike L, for example, is somebody whose name and systems and listening room I've "known" for years and years, despite never having interacted with him anywhere. If it means anything, there are other people here beyond the most prolific posters who enjoy and appreciate what you guys have to say, so don't get the feeling that you're shouting into a vacuum.

I suspect if you put us all in a room with coffee, a few biscuits, cakes and some nice sounds and music, we'd have this resolved in about 5 minutes.

 

[ddk]

Yea, could be that Harmon have captured the most important aspect of speaker design in this research, I really don't know - I'm open minded about it.
Unfortunately, I can't audition them as we don't see Harmon speakers in Ireland, AFAIK & JBL mostly is pro-audio gear, isn't it?

JBL has a very long history in creating excellence, long before Harman going all the way back to the 20's. Lansing's designs defined the meaning of high end and in every decade since they've had at least one speaker that could be considered as the best of its era. Some are still considered as the best of the best even today. Harman bought the complete package, history, innovation, excellence in engineering and a corporate culture that was the envy of the industry. I can't tell what Toole and others brought to the table, all I know is that sometime in 70's Harman pulled JBL brand from the domestic market and concentrated their marketing efforts over were they prospered and kept their lead position in high end, right at the top of the heap, decade after decade and almost all their top speakers are the work of one man, Greg Timbers! Still today, for whatever reason JBL seems incapable of marketing their products successfully in the US high-end market. The current Timber's designed Everest speakers are wonderful but they have no following here, instead the market seems to get excited by half baked, poorly conceived horns with strange names by relative unknowns, go figure...

david