WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

[Rodney Gold]

Enough with all the graphs and figures.. its becoming incredibly boring to see them repearted ad infinitum and as a newbie to this forum , it feels that these figures and graphs and even polls are being used to bludgeon everyone into a direction they not all that willing to go. Dead horses come to mind....

I cannot be bothered to read some of these long rambling threads on this part of the forum... nothing really about enjoying the system but more about presenting personal positions and defending them and attacking those that dont subscribe to your point of view.. sandpit arguments with a ton of flowery prose and mental masturbation attached.
As an aside , As a newbie to here the peter swan song and his original postings were incredibly offensive and patronising.. he came across to me as an absolute prat..

 

[esldude]

Not nearly enough with the graphs and figures. More please.

Incredibly boring to see yet another subjectivist opinion with no reference to use as a touchstone. Seems much more like what everyone has if you know what I mean. Who cares about various individual opinions vs something worked out to be worthwhile to most people.

 

[853guy]

Not nearly enough with the graphs and figures. More please.

Incredibly boring to see yet another subjectivist opinion with no reference to use as a touchstone. Seems much more like what everyone has if you know what I mean. Who cares about various individual opinions vs something worked out to be worthwhile to most people.

esldude,

I don't know who you think "most people" are, but this banner appears at the top of the forum whenever one logs out:

"Please consider joining our friendly and helpful community of enthusiasts where we discuss the best in audio and video to everything else we love from food to movies and music. We are proud of the professional conduct of our membership and strict moderation of the same, combined with high level of technical content shared by our members. If you want to learn and have fun doing it, or share what you know about our favorite hobbies without fear of antagonism, WBF forum is for you."

Nowhere does it say, either explicitly or implicitly, that individual opinions are of lesser importance than graphs and figures. I'm guessing that's your agenda. In fact, there's an all-important "or" right in the middle of the learning/sharing bit.

But if I'm not mistaken, the purpose of the forum as stated above seems to suggest it exists as a place for discussion of the things we love - things that for whatever reason we have an emotional connection or attachment to, without needing to justify our reasons for said devotion, whether they be audio-related or other.

If you really don't care about the opinions or experiences of others, finding it incredibly boring, as you say, then I can only suggest you stick to the threads that most meet your need for objective analysis, without need to steer the forum away from the both/and balance many here are trying to achieve.

 

[jkeny]

Subjective opinion ,preferring one component over another in one's own system is perfectly valid, but not much use outside of your system,

It's incredibly useful when there exists a consensus of opinion around a particular device & that isn't just coming from an obviously skewed group of fanboys. It forms one of the criteria (probably the strongest one) for how people decide on whether to audition the device in their own system & decide for themselves

that's why measurements and specifications are so useful.

By & large, it's just technical titillation, telling readers absolutely nothing about how a device will sound in their system

 

[jkeny]

I still don't understand what is going on here - I think WBF is still fairly well balanced between objective & subjective viewpoints but then I straddle both so I'm not upset by either viewpoint except when it becomes dictatorial & maybe the Harmon speakers subject does become somewhat like that? In a way, the Harmon stuff does remind me of the closed loop system of thinking that often permeates objectivist discussions - "all X sound the same & if Y sounds different then it's broken". I know this logic can be infuriating, made worse by the demand for measurements (currently impossible), DBTs (generally worthless) to "prove" something sounds better. On the other hand I know we can all cling to our "beliefs" (including objectivists) & interpret it as a personal attack when these beliefs are challenged but let's face it we all are just operating in this hobby based on beliefs - yes, including the ones who think they are objective.

 

[Randy Bessinger]

Rarely post, but i have to comment. I figure that when Amir is hated by objectivist on AVS and subjectivist here, he must be doing something right-

 

[FrantzM]

I still don't understand what is going on here - I think WBF is still fairly well balanced between objective & subjective viewpoints but then I straddle both so I'm not upset by either viewpoint except when it becomes dictatorial & maybe the Harmon speakers subject does become somewhat like that? In a way, the Harmon stuff does remind me of the closed loop system of thinking that often permeates objectivist discussions - "all X sound the same & if Y sounds different then it's broken". I know this logic can be infuriating, made worse by the demand for measurements (currently impossible), DBTs (generally worthless) to "prove" something sounds better. On the other hand I know we can all cling to our "beliefs" (including objectivists) & interpret it as a personal attack when these beliefs are challenged but let's face it we all are just operating in this hobby based on beliefs - yes, including the ones who think they are objective.

I agree with you in part. I am not sure of what's going on with the WBF that illicit such strong responses.

I do not share with you the views on the Harmon methodology, one may not like and criticize the methodology. In the absence of a better method. its finding remains difficult to disprove. It is as far as it can be from everything sounds the same IMO. Do you honestly think that measurements are impossible? and that DBT is worthless. What do you make of sighted tests where the minds can have you see and hear and feel things that do not and often cannot exist? Less than worthless?

I will also address some posts that I think were directed toward me. later ..Work and all that

@MikeL

Your contribution is very much appreciated here. Your advices also. as I have written to you and here I am speaking for myself and not for anyone at the WBF. You will be challenged at times. IMO as long as it is done with courtesy and respect, it should be not only tolerated but encouraged. So please reconsider and post. Your system is at a level to which many (most ?)audiophiles would aspire to. I, for one would like to get to that elevated level. I intend to but want the same results with much less expenditures, something I think possible. So stay , post, let's discuss honestly and respectfully. Your enthusiasm for the hobby cannot be questioned, your experience too.

@all
Thie preceding would be addressed to many who have left.

Parting Shot:

I frankly would have liked to see Peter Breuninger come back with an apology to us all. baring this, his last salvo will remain at a dark spot in the WBF. Unwarranted, unhelpful and unbecoming.

 

[FrantzM]

Rarely post, but i have to comment. I figure that when Amir is hated by objectivist on AVS and subjectivist here, he must be doing something right-

I would think the same.

And what is wrong with graphs? Really? Pictures are worth many words aren't they?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I would think the same.

And what is wrong with graphs? Really? Pictures are worth many words aren't they?

Nothing wrong with graphs at all, but some seem to love posting them at every opportunity. Once I see a thread being populated by them I'm usually out of there, because I know it's gonna turn into a 'SCIENCE/TECHNICAL" thread, and the subjective opinions after that are usually ignored.

 

[PeterA]

That was not for your sake, it was for ours . I am trying to get an idea of what makes this a home for you so that management does not have to field complaints from you. As you know, you recently had serious beef with Davey over his view of whatever he saw at the show, leading Peter to create that nasty thread. That created a ton of complaints that we had to deal with. So it is not workable situation. I am specifically asking what it takes for you to post constructively and positively as a core member of our organization.


That has not been my experience. Multiple times I have seen you quite unhappy leaving the forum for some time, none of which was due to any interactions with me.


So the Davey comments was not anti-you? You seem to take it that way.


I am willing to grant you any wish you have. But you need to express it clearly Mike. What is your wish list that gets you stay here, post productively and not complain, quit, etc. For starters, I am happy to not ever respond to you. If I do that, is that sufficient for you to be so situated? If not, what else is on the list?

Amir, you ask for suggestions, but when one is offered in an honest and open way by one of your founding members, you respond with this? Really?

Here are my suggestions to you: Be a bit more respectful of others' opinions. Adjust your tone. Your responses could be less condescending and arrogant. Try not to dissect each post with which you disagree in a sentence-by-sentence manner. It is insulting and indicates that you must prove your point and have the last word in every debate. You responded to me many times like you just did to MikeL and then send me a private message complimenting my even-handed tone and contributions.

I mentioned what I perceive as your passive/aggressive approach before. It is demonstrated in most every response to a post with which you disagree. You may be factually correct, but you come across as lecturing to others who simply want to share their experiences and have a respectful discourse.

The bottom line to me is this: people come to these forums to share experiences and to perhaps learn a few things about this wonderful hobby. There is plenty of room for discussions about both objective measurements and data and how they effect audio system performance and also subjective listening impressions and how our ears tell us things that audio science can not yet explain. People do not want to be confronted and badgered by fellow members who condescend to them. Life is too short. Participating on forums should be fun. When it no longer is, people will find other things to do with their time.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

The bottom line to me is this: people come to these forums to share experiences and to perhaps learn a few things about this wonderful hobby. There is plenty of room for discussions about both objective measurements and data and how they effect audio system performance and also subjective listening impressions and how our ears tell us things that audio science can not yet explain.

This!

 

[amirm]

The bottom line to me is this: people come to these forums to share experiences and to perhaps learn a few things about this wonderful hobby. There is plenty of room for discussions about both objective measurements and data and how they effect audio system performance and also subjective listening impressions and how our ears tell us things that audio science cannot yet explain. People do not want to be confronted and badgered by fellow members who condescend to them. Life is too short. Participating on forums should be fun. When it no longer is, people will find other things to do with their time.

You are being selective Peter. Countless fights occur between subjectivists themselves, lest you forget the Peter incident where he got upset that someone would say such and such equipment is not to their liking at a show. Our complaint file has overflowed countless times due to this and poor Steve's inbox could not be more full of people going after each other in the same camp.

As to confrontation, unfortunately that is what we have even in your statement when you say "audio science can't yet explain." Audio science very much explains much of what you think it doesn't. You don't like that answer but you have to understand that such comments are inflammatory to the other camp and hugely so. You are telling them that they have to throw out a mountain of research, published and accepted audio science. As I said, on a number of other forums, any of the active threads on our forum would have been considered "anti-science" and riots in streets would follow. We are the most tolerant forum out there given the mix of our audience.

The self awareness of these things must go up, way up on you all's behalf if you are not seeing this.

But yes, everyone should treat this like a hobby and try to have fun. That we agree on.

 

[jkeny]

My position re the Harmon measurements is that they probably give us one part of the jigsaw about speaker preference but not the only part & maybe not even the most important part - I retain an open mind on this question.

Measurements with speakers are fairly sophisticated but still not sufficient to fully characterise them, I believe but I'm no expert in this area.

DBTs are by & large fraught with many, many issues - the Harmon ones suffer from the fact that they have eliminated so many factors that are part of our normal listening environment that they do beg questions about their applicability to normal listening. However, I know that these questions have been addressed but maybe not to the satisfaction of some people.

I agree with you in part. I am not sure of what's going on with the WBF that illicit such strong responses.

I do not share with you the views on the Harmon methodology, one may not like and criticize the methodology. In the absence of a better method. its finding remains difficult to disprove. It is as far as it can be from everything sounds the same IMO. Do you honestly think that measurements are impossible? and that DBT is worthless. What do you make of sighted tests where the minds can have you see and hear and feel things that do not and often cannot exist? Less than worthless?

I will also address some posts that I think were directed toward me. later ..Work and all that

@MikeL

Your contribution is very much appreciated here. Your advices also. as I have written to you and here I am speaking for myself and not for anyone at the WBF. You will be challenged at times. IMO as long as it is done with courtesy and respect, it should be not only tolerated but encouraged. So please reconsider and post. Your system is at a level to which many (most ?)audiophiles would aspire to. I, for one would like to get to that elevated level. I intend to but want the same results with much less expenditures, something I think possible. So stay , post, let's discuss honestly and respectfully. Your enthusiasm for the hobby cannot be questioned, your experience too.

@all
Thie preceding would be addressed to many who have left.

Parting Shot:

I frankly would have liked to see Peter Breuninger come back with an apology to us all. baring this, his last salvo will remain at a dark spot in the WBF. Unwarranted, unhelpful and unbecoming.

 

[PeterA]

You are being selective Peter. Countless fights occur between subjectivists themselves, lest you forget the Peter incident where he got upset that someone would say such and such equipment is not to their liking at a show. Our complaint file has overflowed countless times due to this and poor Steve's inbox could not be more full of people going after each other in the same camp.

As to confrontation, unfortunately that is what we have even in your statement when you say "audio science can't yet explain." Audio science very much explains much of what you think it doesn't. You don't like that answer but you have to understand that such comments are inflammatory to the other camp and hugely so. You are telling them that they have to throw out a mountain of research, published and accepted audio science. As I said, on a number of other forums, any of the active threads on our forum would have been considered "anti-science" and riots in streets would follow. We are the most tolerant forum out there given the mix of our audience.

The self awareness of these things must go up, way up on you all's behalf if you are not seeing this.

But yes, everyone should treat this like a hobby and try to have fun. That we agree on.

Amir, You asked MikeL and others to offer you some suggestions. I offered some fairly straight forward suggestions and thought that is what you were asking for. Why are you now arguing with me again?

You presume to know what I don't think audio science can yet fully explain. I don't know how you know what I am thinking, but for the sake of clarity, instead of simply writing "audio science can't yet explain", I should have written, "I do not think measurements can explain everything we hear from an audio system. For instance, I have not seen measurements that will explain how a speaker system will perform in the areas of micro dynamics, resolution, sense of presence, or the listener's level of emotional involvement, in a given system and room." For these areas of performance, I have relied on my ears.

If you still think that viewpoint is confrontational, then I am willing to discuss the subject in another thread, but like others, I am through arguing.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Amir - I have to agree with PeterA regarding your last reply to his post. I viewed it as being argumentative as well. As a founder you need to walk away from those situations, unless it is a viewpoint expressed in a specific audio thread related to a specific product, because you are certainly entitled to an opinion as much as anyone else. But this thread is not that.

 

[Al M.]

Amir - I have to agree with PeterA regarding your last reply to his post. I viewed it as being argumentative as well. As a founder you need to walk away from those situations, unless it is a viewpoint expressed in a specific audio thread related to a specific product, because you are certainly entitled to an opinion as much as anyone else. But this thread is not that.

+1

 

[Mike Lavigne]

before I/we go further down this road of (insert word of choice here), I want to say that I reached out this morning to Amir and we are getting together next week when he is back in town to talk.

time for music.

 

[Steve Williams]

Amir, You asked MikeL and others to offer you some suggestions. I offered some fairly straight forward suggestions and thought that is what you were asking for. Why are you now arguing with me again?

You presume to know what I don't think audio science can yet fully explain. I don't know how you know what I am thinking, but for the sake of clarity, instead of simply writing "audio science can't yet explain", I should have written, "I do not think measurements can explain everything we hear from an audio system. For instance, I have not seen measurements that will explain how a speaker system will perform in the areas of micro dynamics, resolution, sense of presence, or the listener's level of emotional involvement, in a given system and room." For these areas of performance, I have relied on my ears.

If you still think that viewpoint is confrontational, then I am willing to discuss the subject in another thread, but like others, I am through arguing.

Amir - I have to agree with PeterA regarding your last reply to his post. I viewed it as being argumentative as well. As a founder you need to walk away from those situations, unless it is a viewpoint expressed in a specific audio thread related to a specific product, because you are certainly entitled to an opinion as much as anyone else. But this thread is not that.

I rest my case

The water is filling the boat and it is not the words that are sinking the ship but rather the arrogance, self aggrandizing, patronizing and tone of a leader who has shown that he is unable to admit anything wrong but rather continues with patronizing the members as he tells them that they are all wrong.This thread has done nothing except to polarize the membership. Hear the words the members are saying. Let them register in your mind.

An old proverb is perfect here....

If someone stops you on the street and calls you an idiot, you too and ask yourself "am I the idiot or are you the idiot" but when 100 people stop you on the street and call you an idiot, you must stop and ask yourself, "am I really an idiot"

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

before I/we go further down this road of (insert word of choice here), I want to say that I reached out this morning to Amir and we are getting together next week when he is back in town to talk.

time for music.

Nice!

 

[PeterA]

I rest my case

The water is filling the boat and it is not the words that are sinking the ship but rather the arrogance, self aggrandizing, patronizing and tone of a leader who has shown that he is unable to admit anything wrong but rather continues with patronizing the members as he tells them that they are all wrong.This thread has done nothing except to polarize the membership. Hear the words the members are saying. Let them register in your mind.

An old proverb is perfect here....

If someone stops you on the street and calls you an idiot, you must ask yourself "amI the idiot or are you the idiot" but when 100 people stop you on the street and call you an idiot, you must stop and ask yourself, "am I really an idiot"

That is good advice, Steve. Last weekend I was out in a spectator boat watching my daughter race in a large regatta of a hundred 420 sailboats. Conditions were rough and many boats took on a lot of water. The smart sailors noticed what was happening and bailed out the water as fast as possible and continued racing. A few others just went on sailing as their boats filled with water. They dropped further and further behind to finish at the back of the fleet never realizing their boats were slowly sinking.

PeterB never learned this lesson either.