WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

[FrantzM]

Probably the best and most succinct post of this thread which IMO seems to have established that very point. Thank you Rodney. I gave up reading it days ago when that very point was clearly established in my mind

Dare we say more or shall we continue this lame debate and drive away more valued members because they become fearful of posting for this very reason

Doesn't it work both ways? I would say that when we were losing some eminence from the Audio Industry not much was made of that ... Weren't these people valuable too? Why should a person depart a forum if you aren't able to sustain your point of view? No one attacked you in a derogatory fashion. your views and ways of expressing these may have been challenged but I failed to see how anyone diredtly attacked some who have left ( i would like to see them coming back BTW) . Do we want the establishment of Gurus here ? Who will simply anoint something better because ..well.. they say so? Should it become an echo chamber in which a person simply post anything and it should be accepted?
value of what we learn here, if that is the purpose of us being here is in the discussions not in blind agreement. How much have anyone ever learned from a congrats-kind of thread? : You know people I just acquired the MegaSound Absolutabesto ... Congrats! here and Congrats! there .. it is likely ego-boosting but will not improve your system or knowledge (which brings to a better system, thus more enjoyment).
The reality is that those who have left needs to take a chill pill and come back to share their fabulous knowledge of the hobby with us and at times be questioned and challenged for their views and opinions. One in particular Peter Breuniger left with IMO a rather unkind fashion. Disparaging members here before leaving. I do find it odd that he was followed by some who strangely enough have never revert to ad-hominem or/and name-calling.
The hobby may be subjective but this is to a point .. No one here has ever come to tell us that the Bose cubes sounded better than anything they have ever heard ... The research , the scientific research actually points us to ward the fact that there is such a thing as correct reproduction... Science pointed us toward something we intrinsically knew. it validates that view.
So there should be no harm in discussing the value of Science in the WBF. That is not a "lame" discussion. IMO is is a valid one. if the collective choose that Science has no value in the WBF, so be it .. i am not sure, however, the numbers are trending in that direction, quite the contrary

 

[Steve williams]

As far as My concern now Frantz is that people from "both" sides are becoming fearful to post for fear someone from either side will jump out

You can discuss all the science you want Frantz and I am one who does not oppose it but if you think that this thread has established some sort of dogma I think you are clearly mistaken. Rodney hit the nail on the head IMHO. Whether you admit it or not this is essentially a subjective hobby.

As far as Peter's behavior I will never condone that but honestly Frantz, as Rodney King said, "can't we all just get along?"

This discussion IMO has done nothing except to tell me what we all really know. Did you expect to see any thing different as to how members voted in this poll.

Forget about Peter and the 3 others who left Frantz. My concern are the many others who I won't name who have left this forum because of a sequence of events here in the past several weeks that have caused several other longstanding members here to disappear. So if you think this thread has proven anything to you, then great, but for me it has proved nothing other than what we already knew.

I am just returning from a 5 day trip to Utah to hear a system that I truly feel was the most spectacular system I have ever heard in all my life. I will post more about it later. I can tell you that we didn't use $60K worth of measuring equipment. Rather we spent 5 days listening to the music with only our ears. I am returning to California with a smile on my face thinking what so many members here are missing. All we did was use our ears. I rather enjoy that Frantz and if I want to say to this member "congratulations" then damn it you can be sure that I will

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

As far as My concern now Frantz is that people from "both" sides are becoming fearful to post for fear someone from either side will jump out

You can discuss all the science you want Frantz and I am one who does not oppose it but if you think that this thread has established some sort of dogma I think you are clearly mistaken. Rodney hit the nail on the head IMHO. Whether you admit it or not this is essentially a subjective hobby.

As far as Peter's behavior I will never condone that but honestly Frantz, as Rodney King said, "can't we all just get along?"

This discussion IMO has done nothing except to tell me what we all really know. Did you expect to see any thing different as to how members voted in this poll.

Forget about Peter and the 3 others who left Frantz. My concern are the many others who I won't name who have left this forum because of a sequence of events here in the past several weeks that have caused several other longstanding members here to disappear. So if you think this thread has proven anything to you, then great, but for me it has proved nothing other than what we already knew.

I am just returning from a 5 day trip to Utah to hear a system that I truly feel was the most spectacular system I have ever heard in all my life. I will post more about it later. I can tell you that we didn't use $60K worth of measuring equipment. Rather we spent 5 days listening to the music with only our ears. I am returning to California with a smile on my face thinking what so many members here are missing. All we did was use our ears. I rather enjoy that Frantz and if I want to say to this member "congratulations" then damn it you can be sure that I will

Bingo! Well said Steve!

 

[DonH50]

So the implication is that only ears matter, science adds nothing? That is the take-away some would get... A lot of these discussions would be much less confrontational in person and over a beverage, or maybe ice cream.

I have tried to control my posting in threads where science clearly isn't wanted, but sometimes don't recognize the players and/or start typing before my brain catches up and screams "nooo!"

 

[Steve williams]

Thanks John

I would like to remind members that when this site was formed it was with the intent of establishing a "high end audio" site where members could feel free to post their feelings and impressions about their systems. It was t be a place where everyone could feel secure in being able to post their thoughts and feelings about their gear without fear of members lashing out at them. In general other than a few episodes over the years WBF has remained strong and intact. However, there is no doubt in my mind that these events such as the leaving of the PeterB's and the reviewers as well as countless departures of members with high end systems over these past several weeks of whom I am aware, has changed the course and direction of the underlying philosophy of why WBF was established.

Tell me Frantz, how many members with high end systems many of whom were founding members of WBF do you still see around here. Trust me when I tell you that the people who have left don't need the "congrats and congrats" that you imply here. Rather Frantz my friend, they left because WBF in the past month has taken a turn in a direction completely foreign to the very concept upon which this forum was created. You can talk about science all you want. I have no problem but when there is no one left to carry on the discussion I will say to you and to everyone else here that what has happened here lately has turned off more people than you think Frantz. The reality is that when people feel threatened to share their opinions about their systems, their rooms and everything else that makes music for them and brings pleasure to their souls, they will no longer be a part of WBF.

It is for this that I feel saddened and appalled specially when so many of my closest friends feel threatened to post here.

I look forward when I get home to post my thoughts on the system I heard this weekend as IMO it was truly the most engaging system I have ever heard in my entire life. No measurements. No expensive gear other than ears. I loved it and will be proud to post about it in my subjective way and to give kudos and congrats where congrats are due

 

[Steve williams]

So the implication is that only ears matter, science adds nothing?

I never said that nor did I imply that. Don, I have read every post of yours since you joined the forum and have loved every one. You are a true teacher and you give members a relaxed, comfortable and easy way to read about the science. I have said before and I will say it again,.....done correctly, done without threat and done without trying to win a point or trying to humiliate members will be fruitful but done in ways that we have seen recently will cause the egress of members. Don I admire you and everything you have done here as as a technical expert. I have bookmarked most of your threads as they are so informative. I love reading them. What I read however in the past several weeks has changed the very core of WBF as the science was hammered into people's minds post after post after post where things were repeated ad nauseum until several of our scientifically inclined members said "enough already". So I am all for science. If done incorrectly it will continue to alienate members from our community. As I said, you all are aware of only 4 who have left. I can list countless others who have reached out to me in the past several weeks because they are my friends and many are founding members. They are gone along with all of the content that they brought with them , things which I loved to read about...their music choices, their thoughts on pieces of equipment etc. If this is to be the way of the future for WBF, this does not sit right with me

 

[RBFC]

As I see it, science is a link in the chain that allows us to experience the art, etc. around us. In the same way that eyeglasses/contacts allow us to see more clearly, the science of audio engineering allows us to hear more clearly. The science, in itself, is not the end goal. The experience of art and beauty (in all its forms) is the desired goal. You don't "enjoy" a reduction of cabinet resonance, you enjoy the purity of the cello tones that come as a result. You don't marvel at your eyeglasses, you marvel at the sights you see. In the end, this hobby is about enjoyment and is a subjective matter.

My two cents'

Lee

 

[Mike Lavigne]

in the past I defended having a relatively balanced forum where objectivists had some foothold, and felt it worked in the big picture. from time to time I did not care for lack of respect for listening opinions, or posts demeaning listening opinions about things that those posting could not support ever even experiencing. yet, the forum worked.

what changed for me was one of the forum's owner's shift in degree of energy used to promote his agenda. in my mind this shifted the balance away from an audiophile one to something else where the listener perspective is under siege. he was honest about his agenda to cause change. actively.

it's one thing for Frantz or Tim to go down that road. it's another thing altogether for Amir to do it. and do it. and do it.

that made it not fun for me and if it's not fun i'm gone. negative energy is a waste of time. and i'm not a bridge burner.

it's a matter of balance.

and Amir got a bit personal with me and that tipped me over.

WBF will be what those in charge decide it should be. those that no longer enjoy it will go where they fit in. it's not a life and death issue.

 

[DonH50]

@Steve: Now you read too much into my rejoinder. I was only commenting upon this statement (below) and how it might be interpreted. It was not my, nor do I feel your, intent to say science does not matter. It is a good example of how things can be misinterpreted and quickly send a discussion overboard. My opinion looking over threads from the past little while is that there is plenty of blame (intolerance for the other position and subsequent angry escalation) on both sides. If I read something that goes against physics, or more likely something that appears to clearly be well outside (below) audibility, and say so then it is going to come across as a slap in the face to someone who is convinced they hear that something. And vice-versa; being called an idiot (or words to that effect) and/or being told my ears/system/whatever are simply not good enough to hear what somebody else feels they can clearly hear is going to have the same effect on me.

I am just returning from a 5 day trip to Utah to hear a system that I truly feel was the most spectacular system I have ever heard in all my life. I will post more about it later. I can tell you that we didn't use $60K worth of measuring equipment. Rather we spent 5 days listening to the music with only our ears. I am returning to California with a smile on my face thinking what so many members here are missing. All we did was use our ears. I rather enjoy that Frantz and if I want to say to this member "congratulations" then damn it you can be sure that I will

A couple of lines that no-doubt reflect my bias:

• You can prove scientifically that the energy vector ("spin") of a single electron influences the properties of a speaker cable, but is it audible? What about external oxidation, skin effect, conductivity among various materials?
• It is easy to hear spatial cues based upon timing/phasing but it is very difficult to measure, especially in the middle of a piece of music; does that mean measurements are worthless?

These sorts of things have no easy answers IMO and lead to a lot of debates based upon extreme positions (usually degenerating into "you're wrong, I'm right" sort of arguments). It is always hard to take when your beliefs are criticized. Sometimes listening leads to new scientific data and breakthroughs, and sometimes the science proves the listening wrong. It's been that way for decades, don't see it changing soon.

All IMO - Don

 

[andromedaaudio]

I must say , i kind of agree that i also had the feeling that amir talked about science a bit to much from the harman kardon perspective , science is an open thing run by laws of physics /nature , nobody can put a claim to it
Secondly i think as with any audio forum after a while, all is shared and " opiniated" , there are quite a few members with fantastic rooms/ systems already ....what more is there to say except listen/enjoy

 

[amirm]

I keep hearing that the forum has changed in the last three weeks. I am a data driven guy so if things have changed, then there would be simple evidence of it. So here is another snapshot of active forum threads just taken:

Other than the subwoofer one where we have brought in the science and I believe to satisfaction of everyone involved, the rest of these threads are completely subjectivists oriented. You could not discuss even a single one in other forums like AVS without thread closure and member sanctions. No one has gone into those threads and told people they are idiots, that the science says they are wrong, demanding double blind tests, measurements, etc. I have not done it, don't intend to do it and nor have our vocal objectivists. Everyone has learned that on WBF, we should be free to have such discussions.

If the forum atmosphere has changed, and stronger merit is put on science and measurement, why the above picture? Can someone explain it please?

 

[amirm]

I must say , i kind of agree that i also had the feeling that amir talked about science a bit to much from the harman kardon perspective , science is an open thing run by laws of physics /nature , nobody can put a claim to it

That is a valid criticism and I take that to heart.

 

[ddk]

I'm somewhat bewildered by the reactions to Amir's post. I have a very different approach to high end and system building concepts from Amir yet don't see any reason for the strong negative personal responses to his posts. This isn't politics or religion where an ideology and/or election can have serious consequences, this is only audio, a pastime. Participation is voluntary, one can walkaway at any time or ignore the post completely, so what's all the whining about?

david

 

[DaveC]

I'm somewhat bewildered by the reactions to Amir's post. I have a very different approach to high end and system building concepts from Amir yet don't see any reason for the strong negative personal responses to his posts. This isn't politics or religion where an ideology and/or election can have serious consequences, this is only audio, a pastime. Participation is voluntary, one can walkaway at any time or ignore the post completely, so what's all the whining about?

david

I agree. The term HTFU comes to mind


I'd also add I thought Amir was very reasonable and polite, in the face of people outright denying the legitimacy of studies done with undeniable statistical correlations.

 

[Steve williams]

I keep hearing that the forum has changed in the last three weeks. I am a data driven guy so if things have changed, then there would be simple evidence of it. So here is another snapshot of active forum threads just taken:

Other than the subwoofer one where we have brought in the science and I believe to satisfaction of everyone involved, the rest of these threads are completely subjectivists oriented. You could not discuss even a single one in other forums like AVS without thread closure and member sanctions. No one has gone into those threads and told people they are idiots, that the science says they are wrong, demanding double blind tests, measurements, etc. I have not done it, don't intend to do it and nor have our vocal objectivists. Everyone has learned that on WBF, we should be free to have such discussions.

If the forum atmosphere has changed, and stronger merit is put on science and measurement, why the above picture? Can someone explain it please?

I'm somewhat bewildered by the reactions to Amir's post. I have a very different approach to high end and system building concepts from Amir yet don't see any reason for the strong negative personal responses to his posts. This isn't politics or religion where an ideology and/or election can have serious consequences, this is only audio, a pastime. Participation is voluntary, one can walkaway at any time or ignore the post completely, so what's all the whining about?

david

It's not about what was presented but rather how it was presented. I've learned in life that it is all about doing things in moderation. The way things were done recently were a far cry from delivering it in a proper fashion before people stood up and said "enough already"

As far as the change in direction of the forum, showing those threads to me are meaningless. What people fail to see is that driving out "founding members" (or any member for that matter) serves only to remove all of the valuable content and life experiences in this hobby that people bring with them. Rather than looking at the threads as a data driven person, I suggest you look at our founding members list and see from your data driven perspective how many still post here

 

[BlueFox]

[*]You can prove scientifically that the energy vector ("spin") of a single electron influences the properties of a speaker cable, but is it audible? What about external oxidation, skin effect, conductivity among various materials?

All good points. The answer is that we do not yet know because 'science' is constantly evolving as we learn more, especially at the atomic level. The problems arise when some people flat out state that some effect is inaudilbe.

[*]It is easy to hear spatial cues based upon timing/phasing but it is very difficult to measure, especially in the middle of a piece of music; does that mean measurements are worthless?
[/LIST]

Measurements are fantastic, but they are still incomplete, as you imply. The problems arise when some people state/imply the current accepted measurements can explain all audio nuances.

Still, as has been stated, this is just a hobby so we can't get too upset about somebody's opinion that might differ from our own.

 

[DaveC]

Still, as has been stated, this is just a hobby so we can't get too upset about somebody's opinion that might differ from our own.

This is key, it's like people's mothers got insulted here or something.

 

[KBK]

The most important thing, is if even the slightest aspect of vitriol or put down, or undertones of superiority and pushing... enter into a discussion, then cut that member out like a cancer.

Send them along.

This is discussion, not war, where people fight to get their way.

Dogma exists in science, wholesale. The very heart of the conflated problem.

It is vital to understand that engineers are trained to use laws.

Laws do not exist in science. Science is wholly built of and on theory. If there be laws in science then we have social punishment, execution,and so on. Laws are about punishing people in a social-cultural perspective.... for injuring the flow of the whole.

Engineers use laws as they can't build things for people to use, based on theory. So they are taught laws.

IF....Science cannot change itself, if it cannot modify itself, if it is has laws..well...laws lead only to a circular black pit of a black hole where nothing changes. And that.. is dogma, that is religion, that is church and papal bulls, diktats and fatwas.

From what I can tell, there was a recent eruption of the insanity of the dogma aspect of engineering here, on this forum.

Do not mistake engineering law for science theory they are 100% different. Take that home and never forget it. Science:theory --- ---engineering:laws.

Science is all theory, subject to change... and all of the world has but one single fact in it. Just one freaking fact exists: There are no facts. Paradox, and it is exactly as quantum physics tells you.

The engineering linear, rationalist mind has been with us for along time and it is deeply tied to ego expression. Desires, feelings, coming out of the person as sureness and facts, to fluff up the animals comfort zones with walls. All creations of the mind.

And that mind was with us in the middle ages, it was the cleric level of the given churches or religious systems, the nuts and bolts of the system, and we call them engineers, in today's times. as..when you've got laws.. you've got dogma.

When you have only theory, with no facts of any kind...only then, do you have actual 'real as can be'...science.

The rest...... is dogmatic emotionally projected misinformed ill will thrown at other people, as a fear filled game, of trying to have one's way. Where one begins the misstep into soicopathology.

And that, is apparently what happened to this forum, in the past few weeks.

The good, kind, easy going people, which is the vast bulk of people, had nastiness projected upon them; hidden and slyly delivered vitriol of the linear minded rationalist.... who is really... just a mid level cleric from the dogmatic church of engineering.

If one adds in any form of crypto-fascism of self interest from forum governance.... then you have an even more serious problem.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I meant it more in the way that , amir is also a dealer of Harman products

 

[PeterA]

It's not about what was presented but rather how it was presented. I've learned in life that it is all about doing things in moderation. The way things were done recently were a far cry from delivering it in a proper fashion before people stood up and said "enough already"

As far as the change in direction of the forum, showing those threads to me are meaningless. What people fail to see is that driving out "founding members" (or any member for that matter) serves only to remove all of the valuable content and life experiences in this hobby that people bring with them. Rather than looking at the threads as a data driven person, I suggest you look at our founding members list and see from your data driven perspective how many still post here

Excellent post, Steve. My mother used to, and still often does, remind me that, "It is not the words themselves but the tone that makes the music." She has lived a long life, and I find her words quite wise. She knows that logic and reason only go so far.

Amir presents facts like these screen shots of WBF activity and his countless charts and diagrams to prove his points. Those are his words. The way he presents this data and analyzes someone's post by critiquing each sentence separately, is his tone. It is all very polite, seemingly logical, and sometimes apologetic, but it can also become tiresome. I find this passive/aggressive approach distracting and think that it detracts from what he is trying to accomplish. I get exhausted reading his posts, so I, too, have tuned out and now simply skip over Amir's posts.

The three or four recent threads related to this topic have indeed changed the flavor of this forum, despite the fact that many other threads are being started and read every day. I hope Amir continues to post as he feels he should. People will respond as they will and perhaps move onto other threads that have a more pleasing tonal balance.