WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

[NorthStar]

It can be if the data is not statistically valid and some regard it as if it were. Of course, none of us would do that! :b

Good point Kal, but how can we establish that the data is accurately representative from the measuring tools, from the tests performed, from the people who fabricated those tools and organized those tests? ...Somewhere down the line we have to believe, to trust, to relate on something...our ears, no? ...Or it's got to be more than just our ears.

* I think we need more scientific tests, better tools, better ears, better readings of measurements, the right interpretations, the assurance that the measurements and tests are absolutely conclusive, better comparisons between good sounding audio electronics...loudspeakers and from the already good measuring ones and measure the ones that haven't been measured yet.
...Then deduct some logical conclusions...so that we have a solid base to rely on, or less than solid if we compared to live music.
We already have few, but we need more and we need to perfect them. ...This audio business is never a finished business. ...It moves like the music that moves us.

But it is even more complicated; we also have to measure our own room's acoustics, because all the scientific data in the world from loudspeakers to DACs to amps to preamps to CD players to turntables to tonearms to cartridges to phono preamps to hi-res audio music files to interconnects to speaker wires to all type of powered and non-powered tweaks to the music recordings themselves to the mics used by the studio music recording/mixing engineers to all the audiophile's own set of ears is incomplete if not performed in our own music listening rooms. ...No?

 

[NorthStar]

One more thing; the best turntables today are accurately computerized speed accurate to the nth degree...smallest fraction.
The isolation platforms that go underneath were scientifically designed, and the best cartridges are state-of-the art designed by the grand masters of Japan, like when they design the best steel swords for the best samurais.

If we measure a DAC against another one, we might find that they measure very similar, and yet they sound totally different when used with another component from the next. Is it the art of sync, of synergy, of perfect mating/matching, like when you marry the woman of your love life?
What science is there in living in harmony?

__________

77 votes tabulated so far:

? 13% --> No science.
? 87% --> Yes science.

 

[NorthStar]

In all the recent polls the pattern has been pretty clear after the first 10 votes. I look at choices 3 and 4 here as pretty similar; I think the word "critical" in choice 4 is a little iffy (I think "important" is probably more appropriate, but that may be just me).

I agree with you and I mentioned it too before. This poll is NOT totally accurate; it is only an approximation of the closest choice we have selected.
Furthermore, there is none choice for the non-voters (abstain). ...What if one thousand more people read that poll, but without voting because they didn't see a choice that was accurate to them? ...Hey, this is science, this is a theoretical possibility, ...maybe not one thousand but one hundred plus.

@ the end it don't truly matter, what does is that all the voices are heard, and count.

 

[rbbert]

One more thing; the best turntables today are accurately computerized speed accurate to the nth degree...smallest fraction.
...

Take a look at some measurements (by Michael Fremer and others); you will see that no turntable is very speed accurate at all, neither in absolute speed nor speed consistency (stability).

 

[NorthStar]

Take a look at some measurements (by Michael Fremer and others); you will see that no turntable is very speed accurate at all, neither in absolute speed nor speed consistency (stability).

And the exact reason why I mentioned it. The most expensive TTs have a computer in their base, and you see a digital display, for the speed, with two decimal numbers, and even some of the isolating platforms underneath are digitally computerized with shock absorbers that are extremely sensitive to any type of the smallest deviation from the needle following the grooves. You even have a temperature gauge for optimal performance. ...All the tools today to improve our analog turntable's performance are digitally implemented. Tomorrow we'll spin our LPs using the best scientifically measuring DACs.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

And the exact reason why I mentioned it. The most expensive TTs have a computer in their base, and you see a digital display, for the speed, with two decimal numbers, and even some of the isolating platforms underneath are digitally computerized with shock absorbers that are extremely sensitive to any type of the smallest deviation from the needle following the grooves. You even have a temperature gauge for optimal performance. ...All the tools today to improve our analog turntable's performance are digitally implemented. Tomorrow we'll spin our LPs using the best scientifically measuring DACs.

The only way this works is via a return to the days of servo controlled turntables, which were also high torque direct drive. They were widely criticized in their day, although one pricey one has reappeared from VPI, I believe.

Even the fancy, seemingly precise TT power supplies for the motor with digital readouts, etc. cannot overcome the micro speed inaccuracies due to mechanical motor drive and bearing issues, in spite of supposedly high rotational speed stability due to platter inertia, unless there is also high resolution feedback to the motor controller. I saw somebody contrast the magnitude of this on turntables with digital jitter, and the turntable speed stability issues with most all turntables are worse, by quite a bit.

But, who am I to criticize this audio sacred cow of vinyl? My turntable was not unpacked since my last move and my LPs have gathered dust almost undisturbed for over a decade. My vinyl days are simply over. And, though there are many LPs I prize for purely sentimental reasons, I do not miss it in the least sonically. Yet, everyone keeps overlooking the obvious flaws in favor of the largely mythical, glorious euphonic sound of vinyl. The last time I heard it was with about about a $200k vinyl front end. Not bad, but underwhelming to my ears, to say the least

 

[rbbert]

The only way this works is via a return to the days of servo controlled turntables, which were also high torque direct drive. They were widely criticized in their day, although one pricey one has reappeared from VPI, I believe.

Even the fancy, seemingly precise TT power supplies for the motor with digital readouts, etc. cannot overcome the micro speed inaccuracies due to mechanical motor drive and bearing issues, in spite of supposedly high rotational speed stability due to platter inertia, unless there is also high resolution feedback to the motor controller. I saw somebody contrast the magnitude of this on turntables with digital jitter, and the turntable speed stability issues with most all turntables are worse, by quite a bit.

But, who am I to criticize this audio sacred cow of vinyl? My turntable was not unpacked since my last move and my LPs have gathered dust almost undisturbed for over a decade. My vinyl days are simply over. And, though there are many LPs I prize for purely sentimental reasons, I do not miss it in the least sonically. Yet, everyone keeps overlooking the obvious flaws in favor of the largely mythical, glorious euphonic sound of vinyl. The last time I heard it was with about about a $200k vinyl front end. Not bad, but underwhelming to my ears, to say the least

Oooh, heresy! I am mostly in agreement, though...

One slight misconception should be clarified; the high-torque DD 'tables which were criticized were the less expensive ones. The pricey, relatively rare ones from Technics, Micro Seiki, etc, are still prized today. They were too expensive to continue manufacture in the 1980's; it took this century's LP revival combined with ridiculous price inflation to entice VPI back into the market.

 

[NorthStar]

So I should be good to go with my Direct Drive Akai turntable from yesteryears? ...She's auto return too. ....But then I can hear all the low rumbles from the the mechanical humming rotations. ...And I don't even have to measure it to hear it.

_________

When you play a CD inside your CD player, there is a motor to adjust the speed accordingly from where the laser is reading on the disc.
Yes, the laser is not in dirac context (direct contact), so there is less mechanical noise.

And when you play hi-res music files from your PC or Mac, what physical contact is there? You would be tended to believe that hi-res 32/352 music files would be the very best, no? ...Or even lesser, 24/176 that are downloads from the Internet clouds. ...It's all soft touch up there, smooth as butter...so it should have much less distortion from mechanical contamination, no?

 

[rbbert]

Assuming the CD player is operating correctly, the motor shouldn't affect the speed accuracy or stability at all, although it's not impossible that it could adversely affect the sound in other ways (jitter, noise, etc).

 

[NorthStar]

Assuming the CD player is operating correctly, the motor shouldn't affect the speed accuracy or stability at all, although it's not impossible that it could adversely affect the sound in other ways (jitter, noise, etc).

This is something I always wondered about: If it is hard to get a motor @ a constant speed when spinning an album on your platine, and we know how big and nicely shiny metal good looking some of those TT motors are, then how come a cheap tiny motor to spin CDs we never hear of speed stability about?
Plus, the CD has to run @ different speeds across its entire surface, accurate speeds too.

The LP @ the beginning and a the end of its circumference; with a regular tonearm, she cannot track perfectly due to the tangential angle. And a cartridge is like a pickup mic sensitive to external vibrations of the tonearm and low frequencies. ...Unlike a laser. ...And a linear turntable is the solution for perfect tracking all across the LP's surface.

As for jitter that's a little more complicated, and measurements helped a great deal over the years in getting a hand on it.

Without measurements we wouldn't have as good a sound as we have today; without science we are @ the mercy of stuck evolution in the improved performance of our audio electronics and mechanical loudspeakers, ...brief a lesser musical listening experience. ...That is pretty much a real fact.
Let's go back in time, say fifty years ago; what helped the best to have the better sound that we have today? ...Where did we get it from?

 

[DonH50]

The CD's motor operates in a servo loop.

 

[NorthStar]

The CD's motor operates in a servo loop.

More accurate than a turntable one?

 

[ddk]

This is something I always wondered about: If it is hard to get a motor @ a constant speed when spinning an album on your platine, and we know how big and nicely shiny metal good looking some of those TT motors are, then how come a cheap tiny motor to spin CDs we never hear of speed stability about?
Plus, the CD has to run @ different speeds across its entire surface, accurate speeds too.

The LP @ the beginning and a the end of its circumference; with a regular tonearm, she cannot track perfectly due to the tangential angle. And a cartridge is like a pickup mic sensitive to external vibrations of the tonearm and low frequencies. ...Unlike a laser. ...And a linear turntable is the solution for perfect tracking all across the LP's surface.

As for jitter that's a little more complicated, and measurements helped a great deal over the years in getting a hand on it.

Without measurements we wouldn't have as good a sound as we have today; without science we are @ the mercy of stuck evolution in the improved performance of our audio electronics and mechanical loudspeakers, ...brief a lesser musical listening experience. ...That is pretty much a real fact.
Let's go back in time, say fifty years ago; what helps the best to have the sound that we have today? ...Where did we get it from?

If you really went back and compared apples to apples you'll that while we've gained a few things on the whole you'd be surprised Bob how much sound quality we've lost in the last 50-60 years.

david

 

[BlueFox]

If you really went back and compared apples to apples you'll that while we've gained a few things on the whole you'd be surprised Bob how much sound quality we've lost in the last 50-60 years.

david

Are you saying stereos 50-60 years ago sound better than stereos today?

 

[ddk]

Are you saying stereos 50-60 years ago sound better than stereos today?

In many cases yes and I'm not limiting it to reproduction systems but also recordings and recording equipment of the Golden Age.

david

 

[NorthStar]

If you really went back and compared apples to apples you'll that while we've gained a few things on the whole you'd be surprised Bob how much sound quality we've lost in the last 50-60 years.

david

Please, could you elaborate a little on that David?

 

[ddk]

Please, could you elaborate a little on that David?

Sure thing. Let me clarify that I'm only concentrating on the high end and not the rest. Starting with the analog recordings from the late 40's to mid 60's and pressings of that era are unmatched sonically. Neumann tube mics and pre from the 50's and 60's along with their lathes of the era are still sought after and known for their special qualities. You should hear a Neumann DST compared to anything made today at any price. Even the less exotic EMT and SPU & SL Ortofons of the period have musical qualities that will blow you away. Actually there are plenty of beautiful and musical cartridges from then that are amazing. SME's 3012 arm is from the 50's, side by side, anything made today and you'll see and hear what's lost. Large horn speaker systems, nothing even close! Tannoy, JBL, Vitavox, Altec, Klipsch, compare what they made back then to what they have now. People are now rediscovering 50 year old tape machines and tapes as the ultimate playback sources. Analog itself compared to the Frankenstein monster that digital is. Remember Cinerama theaters and multichannel soundtrack of the 60's compared to the horrible THX noise of today. On a personal level the music of that day compared to rap of today, Myles Davis vs Puff Daddy...

david

 

[NorthStar]

Sure thing. Let me clarify that I'm only concentrating on the high end and not the rest. Starting with the analog recordings from the late 40's to mid 60's and pressings of that era are unmatched sonically. Neumann tube mics and pre from the 50's and 60's along with their lathes of the era are still sought after and known for their special qualities. You should hear a Neumann DST compared to anything made today at any price. Even the less exotic EMT and SPU & SL Ortofons of the period have musical qualities that will blow you away. Actually there are plenty of beautiful and musical cartridges from then that are amazing. SME's 3012 arm is from the 50's, side by side, anything made today and you'll see and hear what's lost. Large horn speaker systems, nothing even close! Tannoy, JBL, Vitavox, Altec, Klipsch, compare what they made back then to what they have now. People are now rediscovering 50 year old tape machines and tapes as the ultimate playback sources. Analog itself compared to the Frankenstein monster that digital is. Remember Cinerama theaters and multichannel soundtrack of the 60's compared to the horrible THX noise of today. On a personal level the music of that day compared to rap of today, Myles Davis vs Puff Daddy...

david

Ok, I follow you step by step. ...But it's not like that those fabulous music sounding recordings from the 50s are selling @ your local Walmart stores, and uno, if they did no one could afford those master tapes and lathes. ...They are like diamonds under the Sahara desert's sand shaped from sandstorms, dunes.
Dos, the gear to play them is also hard to get by, because that too is from that era, and if you're fortunate enough to put your hands on one you also need an expert hand in restoring them, them open-reel-tape decks.
Tres, this is the domain of the nostalgic/collectors of best antique sound. ...With all the sparkles of magnetic tapes of fifty years ago and the euphony/euphoria that comes with it.
Cuatro, the mics from the fifties were not the mics from today with extended frequency response without distortion.
Cinquo, it's not like clicking a key on your keyboard and the musical magic appears from nowhere land.
Sex, the bass is the drive, and back then nowhere near today's subs with integrated notch filters and few bands of parametric equalization.
Siete, room's acoustics back then were treated with carpeted plywood boards as today everything is scientifically analysed, measured, and custom designed for specific acoustical properties.
Ucho, today's algorithms in room EQ is much more sophisticated than RIAA curve's EQ with generic graphic type EQs, bass & treble tone controls.
Nueve, electronics, solid states in today's homes is not those tube picnics during the summer months from yesterday, even if this year we are in the "Blob" period over the Pacific Ocean.
Diez, try to get all that equipment on the go! ...This is the territory of chained rooms attached to their home foundations with the people living inside like in balls and chains, jail cells.

 

[ddk]

Ok, I follow you step by step. ...But it's not like that those fabulous music sounding recordings from the 50s are selling @ your local Walmart stores, and uno, if they did no one could afford those master tapes and lathes. ...They are like diamonds under the Sahara desert's sand shaped from sandstorms, dunes.
Dos, the gear to play them is also hard to get by, because that too is from that era, and if you're fortunate enough to put your hands on one you also need an expert hand in restoring them, them open-reel-tape decks.
Tres, this is the domain of the nostalgic/collectors of best antique sound. ...With all the sparkles of magnetic tapes of fifty years ago and the euphony/euphoria that comes with it.
Cuatro, the mics from the fifties were not the mics from today with extended frequency response without distortion.
Cinquo, it's not like clicking a key on your keyboard and the musical magic appears from nowhere land.
Sex, the bass is the drive, and back then nowhere near today's subs with integrated notch filters and few bands of parametric equalization.
Siete, room's acoustics back then were treated with carpeted plywood boards as today everything is scientifically analysed, measured, and custom designed for specific acoustical properties.
Ucho, today's algorithms in room EQ is much more sophisticated than RIAA curve's EQ with generic graphic type EQs, bass & treble tone controls.
Nueve, electronics, solid states in today's homes is not those tube picnics during the summer months from yesterday, even if this year we are in the "Blob" period over the Pacific Ocean.
Diez, try to get all that equipment on the go! ...This is the territory of chained rooms attached to their home foundations with the people living inside like in balls and chains, jail cells.

Bob, didn't say they were available today, my point was about what we lost. Talk to some engineers who know about old Neumann mics, frequency response was never an issue back then. Room acoustics? There's nothing worse than sheet rock and metal studs! Anyone with a microphone and a computer can take measurements today and so what? What do they do with it? The further back you go the better sounding halls you find, its a lost art Bob computing is nothing! We do have some better sounding electronics than back then but not all that many.

david

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, didn't say they were available today, my point was about what we lost. Talk to some engineers who know about old Neumann mics, frequency response was never an issue back then. Room acoustics? There's nothing worse than sheet rock and metal studs! Anyone with a microphone and a computer can take measurements today and so what? What do they do with it? The further back you go the better sounding halls you find, its a lost art Bob computing is nothing! We do have some better sounding electronics than back then but not all that many.

david

Yes I know David, I was simply making friendly conversation about the music from yesterday. ...I live next door to my friend, a 76-years old pro musician who has seen it all.
His barn is full of old lathes and he still have an older and very good (that's what he told me) open-reel-tape deck he used to record his music with. I saw it, and I told him that it would need a lot of work to get back on its feet...his barn is not heated during the winter months.

Anyway, it's all real cool the people who restore old electronic analog pieces. ...And the musicians with their original lathes on their walls, and the master tapes.
In that sense today's science doesn't hold a candle next to it, but we just have to live with what's easily available today; Daft Punk & all...still on LPs by the way.

In the year 2015, in America, in Japan, in Canada, in France, in the UK, in Germany, in Italy, in Ireland, in Argentina, in the Chinatown some people are rediscovering the essence.
But most people are totally lost and they don't care about the real stuff. ...They don't see the true value of the art and heart and perils and adventures that made this world what it is today...most people lost or got their identities stolen by the money-making technological tools of today.
And that, is the real science of the matter...I fully understand...and it deserves all the respect if we want to stay true to our sources.