WBF Poll: Which Sounds Better, Digital or Analog?

[JackD201]

Well, for one thing a CD involves changing the original PCM file into "words" which can be represented by the pits and lands cut into the CD; that's why you can't just put a CD into your computer's disc drive and copy the files, it has to be "ripped". So right there is a possibility for problems to arise, and as you might suspect how well those pits and lands are cut and how well the reflective layer is then applied might affect eventual sound quality as well. Just some of the reasons many people say a CD ripped to hard drive and then played as a PCM file can sound better than the original CD. Needless to say manufacturing techniques have improved since the early days and quality control is better, but that doesn't mean "perfect".

I think a lot of people don't know that the physical length of the land represents the length of a string of 0s making speed control a huge factor. Immunity from vibration too. We're not just talking about loss here we're talking corrupted output voltage data. That's why the information is printed on a CD five times in different locations IIRC. We hope one of the five is right and depend on error correction to find and use the correct ones. Not hard to imagine how tough that might have been when both pressing and transport manufacture were in their toddler years. I was one of those that thought bits are bits and that transports didn't matter until I moved from an ordinary CD player to a pro unit using a robust transport mechanism. My two current transports use the VRDS and Gyropoint respectively. The latter has a third laser used just as a sensor. Add that to the improvement in analog chips, analog sections and power supplies and we get a whole lot of improvement with rebook over the years. SSD appears to bypass most if not all these issues so I am eagerly waiting for computer audio to fully mature. It appears it will do so much faster. I'm just hoping that it happens in a manner that will not require the user to have a degree in computer engineering.

 

[garylkoh]

I've said this before and been hammered on it but there's more loss of information in making a CD than LP. As our analog front-ends have continued to improve--in particular the phono section electronics (and anyone who thinks designing a phono stage is simple is fooling themselves)--we realize the issue with the analog medium is the playback, not the making of the disc as in digital. Part of the reason am saying this is that am able to compare 1 on 1 early generation tape vs. the LP and the differences are really narrowing. Still there but much tinier. OTOH especially in the case of the early days of CD manufacturing, the powers to be told me there were sizeable jitter issues to overcome in the CD manufacturing process from whatever the mastering source-in the case of Holly Cole a 1630--to overcome.

The amazing thing about this is that when you take the bad copy of the CD and the good copy of the CD, after ripping to a computer, you get IDENTICAL digital files. That is the main reason why I left the physical CD format 9 years ago and started working on a music server.

I wrote the first version of this paper in 2003, and updated it frequently in the early days. I gave Winston Ma the technology, and helped him evaluate different pressing plants, and to develop the "Master Edition" of his CDs. In the early days of his K2HD CDs he even credited me with supplying the technology for improving the sound of his CDs. He went beyond what I had done after I abandoned the physical format:
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CD_Paper_Ultimate.pdf

I've had over 100,000 downloads of the various versions of this paper, and the people who tell me that this doesn't work either have not tried it themselves, or they have already decided in their own minds that it would make no difference, or they took too many short-cuts.

 

[garylkoh]

I'm just hoping that it happens in a manner that will not require the user to have a degree in computer engineering.

I'll bring you a Muse when (if) I come to the Philippines to set up the Dragons when (if) I ever get contacted by the dealer who sold it. When I left The Show at Newport, my Muse was kidnapped but I held on to the Owner's Manual. Well, I understand that the kidnapper is really enjoying playing with it even without RTFM.

 

[JackD201]

98 votes in Amir. 2 to go.

 

[PeterA]

Cherish what you have, the art and the expertise of that era is lost and is never coming back.

david

This is not a prediction? You are telling us what will or will not happen.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting experiment. I have no doubt that extra timbral colors can be created by a component as artifacts, but the creation of extra detail like micro-vibrations on the strings of a solo string instrument seems inconceivable.

Especially when:
a) the vibrations sound similar to those that you would hear live
b) other instruments or instrument groups play at the same time undisturbed with a 'straight' tone

+1.

Can a tube amplifier added to the electronic chain of a system make a viola sound more like a violin or cello in the performance of a string quintet? I would think timbral accuracy makes the instruments sound more distinct from each other and more like those we hear live.

 

[amirm]

98 votes in Amir. 2 to go.

Yeh... I keep yanking people's chains to get there.

 

[MylesBAstor]

The amazing thing about this is that when you take the bad copy of the CD and the good copy of the CD, after ripping to a computer, you get IDENTICAL digital files. That is the main reason why I left the physical CD format 9 years ago and started working on a music server.

I wrote the first version of this paper in 2003, and updated it frequently in the early days. I gave Winston Ma the technology, and helped him evaluate different pressing plants, and to develop the "Master Edition" of his CDs. In the early days of his K2HD CDs he even credited me with supplying the technology for improving the sound of his CDs. He went beyond what I had done after I abandoned the physical format:
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CD_Paper_Ultimate.pdf

I've had over 100,000 downloads of the various versions of this paper, and the people who tell me that this doesn't work either have not tried it themselves, or they have already decided in their own minds that it would make no difference, or they took too many short-cuts.

Yes in general the ripped files sound better than the CD but I've heard some variation here too.

 

[ddk]

This is not a prediction? You are telling us what will or will not happen.

No, it's past tense, all gone years ago.
david

 

[esldude]

+1.

Can a tube amplifier added to the electronic chain of a system make a viola sound more like a violin or cello in the performance of a string quintet? I would think timbral accuracy makes the instruments sound more distinct from each other and more like those we hear live.

The answer to those questions would be yes. The amp in question made those instruments more distinct and more like what you remember hearing live. Only that info came not from the source signal. It was a coloration that by happenstance heightened the illusion on playback. We aren't talking about a foggy coloring over sound rather one that seemed more clearly drawn even when it wasn't. It was this clearly heightened, more detailed, more varied, more clear sound quality that made it so noticeable. Unfortunately true fidelity it wasn't. I am quite okay with that. However, making such distinctions about what is fidelity on the back-end at playback without a reference to the original signal can lead to one chasing ghosts.

 

[esldude]

I think a lot of people don't know that the physical length of the land represents the length of a string of 0s making speed control a huge factor. Immunity from vibration too. We're not just talking about loss here we're talking corrupted output voltage data. That's why the information is printed on a CD five times in different locations IIRC. We hope one of the five is right and depend on error correction to find and use the correct ones. Not hard to imagine how tough that might have been when both pressing and transport manufacture were in their toddler years. I was one of those that thought bits are bits and that transports didn't matter until I moved from an ordinary CD player to a pro unit using a robust transport mechanism. My two current transports use the VRDS and Gyropoint respectively. The latter has a third laser used just as a sensor. Add that to the improvement in analog chips, analog sections and power supplies and we get a whole lot of improvement with rebook over the years. SSD appears to bypass most if not all these issues so I am eagerly waiting for computer audio to fully mature. It appears it will do so much faster. I'm just hoping that it happens in a manner that will not require the user to have a degree in computer engineering.

Actually lands and pits are zeroes. A transition from one to the other is a one. Doesn't matter which direction the transition on the CD.


And they don't record the information in 5 different places. They do use Eight to Fourteen modulation. This is so surface scratches or dust or fingerprints don't conceal consecutive samples of the waveform. If one is sometimes obscured those before and after can be used to determine what it was accurately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-to-fourteen_modulation

 

[Steve Williams]

100 votes in Amir.

 

[JackD201]

Actually lands and pits are zeroes. A transition from one to the other is a one. Doesn't matter which direction the transition on the CD.
View attachment 21024

And they don't record the information in 5 different places. They do use Eight to Fourteen modulation. This is so surface scratches or dust or fingerprints don't conceal consecutive samples of the waveform. If one is sometimes obscured those before and after can be used to determine what it was accurately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-to-fourteen_modulation

Thank you for the correction. It remains that the length of both determine the values and that the precise manufacture is imperative to correctness.

 

[PeterA]

No, it's past tense, all gone years ago.
david

When you write that "it is never coming back", you are indeed predicting the future. You are telling us that it will or will not happen. How do you not understand that?

 

[TBone]

The amazing thing about this is that when you take the bad copy of the CD and the good copy of the CD, after ripping to a computer, you get IDENTICAL digital files. That is the main reason why I left the physical CD format 9 years ago and started working on a music server.

I wrote the first version of this paper in 2003, and updated it frequently in the early days. I gave Winston Ma the technology, and helped him evaluate different pressing plants, and to develop the "Master Edition" of his CDs. In the early days of his K2HD CDs he even credited me with supplying the technology for improving the sound of his CDs. He went beyond what I had done after I abandoned the physical format:
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CD_Paper_Ultimate.pdf

I've had over 100,000 downloads of the various versions of this paper, and the people who tell me that this doesn't work either have not tried it themselves, or they have already decided in their own minds that it would make no difference, or they took too many short-cuts.

I just downloaded, thanks ...

Haven't had a chance to really read it yet - should be interesting. I remember when I first started ripping, I sent a 2nd gen disk (reg.music maxell) to Marty, @Bound for Sound. He graciously sent me back copies, one in particular a black cdr (forget brand)... which managed to sound better than my original. That was ~ a decade or so ago, didn't think that was possible.

 

[ddk]

When you write that "it is never coming back", you are indeed predicting the future. You are telling us that it will or will not happen. How do you not understand that?

If you understood the industry and production you'd also know why that's not a prediction. Stick a "might" in the sentence before "never" if it makes you happy.

david

 

[sujay]

I realize you may not value them but vast majority people who read these posts are not the ones triggering the response, but people who either silently read but don't post (far more people read and don't post), or future readers who are searching the web and landing on these discussions. It is my goal to make sure when they do, they don't see a war of words. That we impart knowledge and data. Hence all the technical theory and real life data. Heaven knows we have polluted the internet enough with lay arguments and war of words...

Hi, Amir....bang on! I, for one, wholeheartedly second this. I do read more than I write on this forum and that's not because I may not have anything useful to contribute (though on relative terms my technical knowledge can be written on the back of a postage stamp) (-:

I quite agree that the 'debate' more often than not degenerates very quickly into an unnecessary argument about proving one format as being better than the other almost getting personal and emotional about it. Frankly, does it really matter? Though, I must admit it is as entertaining as it is enlightening!

While I havent voted because I don't own an analog rig yet, I am so looking forward to my new analog-set up, which is a few weeks away - and simply put that's got nothing to do with which format is actually better. The little that I have heard on analog just impressed me so much that I just succumbed!

Carry on guys.....am loving it!

Cheers

Sujay

 

[BlueFox]

Had to go with digital since I haven't dealt with analog since the early 80s. Even if analog did sound a touch better, I could never go back to that PITA format.

 

[TBone]

Had to go with digital since I haven't dealt with analog since the early 80s. Even if analog did sound a touch better, I could never go back to that PITA format.

Well, some peoples PITA maybe others labour of luv, plus digital includes its own set of proprietary hurts.

Cleaning/maintaining a Linn transport ...

 

[microstrip]

I think a lot of people don't know that the physical length of the land represents the length of a string of 0s making speed control a huge factor. Immunity from vibration too. We're not just talking about loss here we're talking corrupted output voltage data. That's why the information is printed on a CD five times in different locations IIRC. We hope one of the five is right and depend on error correction to find and use the correct ones. Not hard to imagine how tough that might have been when both pressing and transport manufacture were in their toddler years. I was one of those that thought bits are bits and that transports didn't matter until I moved from an ordinary CD player to a pro unit using a robust transport mechanism. My two current transports use the VRDS and Gyropoint respectively. The latter has a third laser used just as a sensor. Add that to the improvement in analog chips, analog sections and power supplies and we get a whole lot of improvement with rebook over the years. SSD appears to bypass most if not all these issues so I am eagerly waiting for computer audio to fully mature. It appears it will do so much faster. I'm just hoping that it happens in a manner that will not require the user to have a degree in computer engineering.

Yes Jack, you are correct. But it is known since long that CD format can be considered bit exact and that bit errors can not explain sound differences between equipment. Almost thirty years ago I also implemented hardware counters in my CD player to check for c1, c2 and cu errors!

IMHO the disturbing question is that we can not predict with exactitude the sound quality we get with a particular CD transport or server with a particular DAC. Some top sounding DACs are known to sound subjectively better with their dedicated CD transports than fed by a server supplying the same bits.

As you I have big hope in computer audio maturity. But unless people accept and recognize the hidden problems, there will be no fast answers.