WBF Poll: Which Sounds Better, Digital or Analog?

[microstrip]

Thank you, Peter.

I am one of those who prefer the analog in that single system with both sources available that you mentioned. But then, it also must be said that the analog set-up is of a quality that most haven't heard. Also, the system as a whole is of such superior resolution that it makes the differences between analog and digital easily audible.

Al M.

Could we have a description of the equipment being used in this system and room size?

 

[TBone]

No, they were about 5mm wide flat ring and you stuck them on top of the CD. The glue would eat into the silver over time. I had those rings too, they were green if I recall, and there was a green edge marker too. Fortunately they started making decent transports so we could do away with all this junk.

Remember the device (I forget the name) which used to cull the edges of the CD, I assumed for better balance during play? Well, I had one CD "cut" for me a long time ago. This stems from my past use of certain players/transports, in which two identical units would somehow manage to sound different. I'd open up each unit, and watch as each transport loaded and clamped the CD, then revolve. Finding a CD that revolved without some balancing issues was rare, some were so bad as to create an obvious noise/resonance. I've had to re-adjust the clamping system on a few of my transports. I remember specifically using that particular cd, watching it rotate near perfectly on all transports, anyway ... these green rings -kinda- do the same thing. I've noticed, depending on CD, they can help in this regard. Don't have many, haven't used one in a long time, but once in a while I'll open up an old CD, and bingo, another green ring.

 

[ddk]

were those like these (these fit on, didn't use glue) ...
View attachment 21005

Here's what they look like.



here was this other ridiculous tweak for the inner ring that you could combine with the above



david

 

[ddk]

Remember the device (I forget the name) which used to cull the edges of the CD, I assumed for better balance during play? Well, I had one CD "cut" for me a long time ago. This stems from my past use of certain players/transports, in which two identical units would somehow manage to sound different. I'd open up each unit, and watch as each transport loaded and clamped the CD, then revolve. Finding a CD that revolved without some balancing issues was rare, some were so bad as to create an obvious noise/resonance. I've had to re-adjust the clamping system on a few of my transports. I remember specifically using that particular cd, watching it rotate near perfectly on all transports, anyway ... these green rings -kinda- do the same thing. I've noticed, depending on CD, they can help in this regard. Don't have many, haven't used one in a long time, but once in a while I'll open up an old CD, and bingo, another green ring.

Yes, the Audio Desk! Fortunately that was one tweak I passed on, I already had decent digital sound by then. I know what you mean, but my bingo is oh $hit another disc headed for the trash can.

david

 

[TBone]

Yes, the Audio Desk! Fortunately that was one tweak I passed on, I already had decent digital sound by then. I know what you mean, buy my bingo is oh $hit another disc headed for the trash can.

Damn, these ALL fail to play over time?

I've had a few older CDs fail over time without any added rings/mods, now I'm a bit hesitant to put any of my old fav CDs under the light.

 

[esldude]

Yes, thank you. That's the video I had in mind. Everyone should watch it. I did, and it was good to have my preconceptions corrected.

That doesn't mean that digital is as good as, or even better than, analog. In theory it should be, but my ears tell me that in practice it is (not yet) so. Yet as Amir says, one should not use the wrong technical arguments to 'prove that digital is inferior', and one should also not dismiss the technical arguments why analog is technically quite flawed and the measurements that prove that it is so -- even though to my ears on the best equipment currently it still leads to superior results, for whatever reason; and no, you cannot explain away superior timbral detail as 'coloration'.

Timbrel detail can be created whole cloth from nothing. Experiment I once did involved a triode tube amp and a Spectral DMA50. The tube amp had superior dynamics, space, and timbrel detail by far by everyone's estimation who heard it. I rigged the output of the tube amp so it had a load on it similar to my speakers, tapped it with custom made interconnects, used some quality resistors to drop the voltage turning the tube amp into a big unity gain buffer if you will. Fed the tube amp, which fed the Spectral amp. The sound I got was that of the tube amp. All the timbre, space and dynamics was being created by that amp. It wasn't in the signal from my source.

I reversed the amps and used the Spectral as a big unity gain buffer. You couldn't tell if it was in or out of the circuit. It didn't subtract from the timbre. Hook the source straight to the Spectral, and to speakers you lost timbre, space and dynamics. The conclusion I came to was this was being created by the triode amp. It wasn't in the source signal to start with. Do LP's and the whole analog chain do the same thing? I haven't done the exact experiment, but I believe that is the case. It most certainly is possible for colorations to increase timbre in music.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Please elaborate Myles. Do you mean the quality from early CD plants? I would definitely agree. Amazing difference between CDs coming out of the first world vs say those that came out of our local plants.

Exactly. Wrote an article for TAS (late '80s IIRC) about the difference between pressings of Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed. One CD was pressed in Canada on the Alert label and the other in the U.S. on the BN label. The Canadian release made at a new factory had it all over the U.S. version. Oh yes, both copies were mastered by Bernie Grundman and he sent identical 1630s to each plant.

Even further evidence. Heard way back when at Chesky's place on a pretty darn good system including Verity speakers comparisons between his master recordings and the CD release; to say the differences were shocking would have been the understatement of the decade! For instance, all the sense of the studio was MIA on the CD but it was definitely present on the original recording. So maybe some of the better sound of high Rez digital is that we're not going through all these transfer processes and staying much closer in the best case scenario to the original digital file.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Remember the device (I forget the name) which used to cull the edges of the CD, I assumed for better balance during play? Well, I had one CD "cut" for me a long time ago. This stems from my past use of certain players/transports, in which two identical units would somehow manage to sound different. I'd open up each unit, and watch as each transport loaded and clamped the CD, then revolve. Finding a CD that revolved without some balancing issues was rare, some were so bad as to create an obvious noise/resonance. I've had to re-adjust the clamping system on a few of my transports. I remember specifically using that particular cd, watching it rotate near perfectly on all transports, anyway ... these green rings -kinda- do the same thing. I've noticed, depending on CD, they can help in this regard. Don't have many, haven't used one in a long time, but once in a while I'll open up an old CD, and bingo, another green ring.

Audio Deske.

 

[TBone]

For instance? If the Foxtrot is a 2008 release, was it an analog or digital recording to start with?

1972 Genesis Foxtrot (I figure most know this already, added that just for clarity).

As for the potential of digital intervention with the 2008 release, tried to research that info, no provenance data on the LP, or at discogs, unless I missed it.

Lot's of 180 gm schlock out there that are digitally sourced, from safeties or backup of safeties, etc. think we've had this discussion before but just like in criminology, chain of custody is everything. But all things being equal...

I know, perhaps I should lower my sonic expectations when considering any potential LP that's been derived from a digital source? That task is made even more difficult considering the "Audiophile" cost with many of these pressings. At least the majority (not all) of this pressing was clear of damage and noise, something I can't claim with other recent pressings. A PF The Wall audiophile pressing I recently purchased new provided 3 pristine sides, 1 side is mostly popcorn that cannot be cleaned (looking closely, you can see physical damage on the disk).

Needle dropped Foxtrot twice over, applying two different SRA settings, but I haven't had the chance to comprehensively listen to each result (past the headphone/recording stage).

 

[PeterA]

Exactly. Wrote an article for TAS (late '80s IIRC) about the difference between pressings of Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed. One CD was pressed in Canada on the Alert label and the other in the U.S. on the BN label. The Canadian release made at a new factory had it all over the U.S. version. Oh yes, both copies were mastered by Bernie Grundman and he sent identical 1630s to each plant.

Even further evidence. Heard way back when at Chesky's place on a pretty darn good system including Verity speakers comparisons between his master recordings and the CD release; to say the differences were shocking would have been the understatement of the decade! For instance, all the sense of the studio was MIA on the CD but it was definitely present on the original recording. So maybe some of the better sound of high Rez digital is that we're not going through all these transfer processes and staying much closer in the best case scenario to the original digital file.

Interesting. I had heard that about the Hole Cole CD and bought the Canadian release.

I thought nothing was lost in the digital transfer processes from the original digital file to subsequent copies, that is a copy is a perfect facsimile of the original. Not the case? Is that another myth?

 

[rbbert]

Well, for one thing a CD involves changing the original PCM file into "words" which can be represented by the pits and lands cut into the CD; that's why you can't just put a CD into your computer's disc drive and copy the files, it has to be "ripped". So right there is a possibility for problems to arise, and as you might suspect how well those pits and lands are cut and how well the reflective layer is then applied might affect eventual sound quality as well. Just some of the reasons many people say a CD ripped to hard drive and then played as a PCM file can sound better than the original CD. Needless to say manufacturing techniques have improved since the early days and quality control is better, but that doesn't mean "perfect".

 

[ddk]

1972 Genesis Foxtrot (I figure most know this already, added that just for clarity).

As for the potential of digital intervention with the 2008 release, tried to research that info, no provenance data on the LP, or at discogs, unless I missed it.



I know, perhaps I should lower my sonic expectations when considering any potential LP that's been derived from a digital source? That task is made even more difficult considering the "Audiophile" cost with many of these pressings. At least the majority (not all) of this pressing was clear of damage and noise, something I can't claim with other recent pressings. A PF The Wall audiophile pressing I recently purchased new provided 3 pristine sides, 1 side is mostly popcorn that cannot be cleaned (looking closely, you can see physical damage on the disk).

Needle dropped Foxtrot twice over, applying two different SRA settings, but I haven't had the chance to comprehensively listen to each result (past the headphone/recording stage).

TBone, they don't have to be digitally mastered to be schlock, plenty of analog transfers are also horrible. Don't forget that there was a real industry and it almost died overnight. Pressing plants were closed and the real experts and the artists in the field were let go and had find other ways to make a living. The heavy vinyl is post analog era, who knows why they came up with it to begin with, or the guys mixing the vinyl in these factory even know their hand from their ass. How do they press this stuff and where? Cherish what you have, the art and the expertise of that era is lost and is never coming back.

david

 

[ddk]

Interesting. I had heard that about the Hole Cole CD and bought the Canadian release.

I thought nothing was lost in the digital transfer processes from the original digital file to subsequent copies, that is a copy is a perfect facsimile of the original. Not the case? Is that another myth?

Don't know that particular title but differences in pressing were always there, nothing new. I remember the same discussions about the best pressing of an LP. UK, German, Dutch, Italian & French pressings were always different from one another, the only constant were the Italian pressings, guaranteed to suck!

david

 

[TBone]

>>TBone, they don't have to be digitally mastered to be schlock, plenty of analog transfers are also horrible. <<

Agreed, I've got plenty examples.

Speaking of this particular Foxtrot pressing, check out this plot (ripA.r.ch.negative.sra; suppers ready) and it's subsonic bulge ...

 

[PeterA]

TBone, they don't have to be digitally mastered to be schlock, plenty of analog transfers are also horrible. Don't forget that there was a real industry and it almost died overnight. Pressing plants were closed and the real experts and the artists in the field were let go and had find other ways to make a living. The heavy vinyl is post analog era, who knows why they came up with it to begin with, or the guys mixing the vinyl in these factory even know their hand from their ass. How do they press this stuff and where? Cherish what you have, the art and the expertise of that era is lost and is never coming back.

david

Wow, those are pretty definitive statements. On what do you base such a statement and prediction?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Interesting. I had heard that about the Hole Cole CD and bought the Canadian release.

I thought nothing was lost in the digital transfer processes from the original digital file to subsequent copies, that is a copy is a perfect facsimile of the original. Not the case? Is that another myth?

I've said this before and been hammered on it but there's more loss of information in making a CD than LP. As our analog front-ends have continued to improve--in particular the phono section electronics (and anyone who thinks designing a phono stage is simple is fooling themselves)--we realize the issue with the analog medium is the playback, not the making of the disc as in digital. Part of the reason am saying this is that am able to compare 1 on 1 early generation tape vs. the LP and the differences are really narrowing. Still there but much tinier. OTOH especially in the case of the early days of CD manufacturing, the powers to be told me there were sizeable jitter issues to overcome in the CD manufacturing process from whatever the mastering source-in the case of Holly Cole a 1630--to overcome.

 

[MylesBAstor]

>>TBone, they don't have to be digitally mastered to be schlock, plenty of analog transfers are also horrible. <<

Agreed, I've got plenty examples.

Speaking of this particular Foxtrot pressing, check out this plot (ripA.r.ch.negative.sra; suppers ready) and it's subsonic bulge ...
View attachment 21022

Of course there are the great compression wars.

 

[TBone]

Myles, or anyone, any idea why the tonearm subsonic resonant freq.w/this LP seems so prominent? Below is a more typical rip (CCR, Cosmos Factory, MFSL) plot using the exact same equipment ...

 

[ddk]

Wow, those are pretty definitive statements. On what do you base such a statement and prediction?

Its not a prediction, the industry died and went away. What is resurrected or remained is only a shadow of what was. You can always ask the record execs at Time Warner or Sony if you want to but if you understood manufacturing you'd know what it means to produce quality, specially in volume. You can't just close the doors of a specialized factory and hope to open it overnight, its not toothpicks. Even that needs expertise to make good ones.

Edit- What do you think happens to the equipment when they close a plant? Everything gets either sold or thrown away and the building repurposed. Same goes for the support industry that analog production depended on, including the mastering studios, they moved on.

david

 

[Al M.]

Timbrel detail can be created whole cloth from nothing. Experiment I once did involved a triode tube amp and a Spectral DMA50. The tube amp had superior dynamics, space, and timbrel detail by far by everyone's estimation who heard it. I rigged the output of the tube amp so it had a load on it similar to my speakers, tapped it with custom made interconnects, used some quality resistors to drop the voltage turning the tube amp into a big unity gain buffer if you will. Fed the tube amp, which fed the Spectral amp. The sound I got was that of the tube amp. All the timbre, space and dynamics was being created by that amp. It wasn't in the signal from my source.

I reversed the amps and used the Spectral as a big unity gain buffer. You couldn't tell if it was in or out of the circuit. It didn't subtract from the timbre. Hook the source straight to the Spectral, and to speakers you lost timbre, space and dynamics. The conclusion I came to was this was being created by the triode amp. It wasn't in the source signal to start with. Do LP's and the whole analog chain do the same thing? I haven't done the exact experiment, but I believe that is the case. It most certainly is possible for colorations to increase timbre in music.

Interesting experiment. I have no doubt that extra timbral colors can be created by a component as artifacts, but the creation of extra detail like micro-vibrations on the strings of a solo string instrument seems inconceivable.

Especially when:
a) the vibrations sound similar to those that you would hear live
b) other instruments or instrument groups play at the same time undisturbed with a 'straight' tone