WBF Poll: Which Sounds Better, Digital or Analog?

Which format sounds best to you: analog or digital

  • Analog Sounds Best

    Votes: 90 64.7%
  • Digital Sounds Best

    Votes: 49 35.3%

  • Total voters
    139
60/35 right now; members who said that analog sounds better than digital, to their ears. ...That is serious business, because this is not a toy forum, but real music lovers speaking. ...And it deserves the highest respect; analog rigs and all, but mostly the ears of the people listening to analog music. ...For me, that is true serious music dedication.
My entire youth, and large part of my adult life and heart originate from analog music listening, ...rituals of an inner sanctum.

It's the votes that count @ the end; it tells the full story, from A to Z and between. Hey, WBF is a 2 to 1 affair on this side of analog music. ...Let's respect our elders.
There is more soul and heart and peace to learn from them than all that is not truly essential, like zeros and ones (codes).
Yeah, listen to the music, to the people who play it. ...And to the people who listen to it.

?
 
Perhaps, but IMO, true subject-matter-experience, within any field, requires the necessary ... "experience".
Yes, but who defines what the necesary experience is :confused:
 
60/35 right now; members who said that analog sounds better than digital, to their ears. ...That is serious business, because this is not a toy forum, but real music lovers speaking. ...And it deserves the highest respect; analog rigs and all, but mostly the ears of the people listening to analog music. ...For me, that is true serious music dedication.
My entire youth, and large part of my adult life and heart originate from analog music listening, ...rituals of an inner sanctum.

It's the votes that count @ the end; it tells the full story, from A to Z and between. Hey, WBF is a 2 to 1 affair on this side of analog music. ...Let's respect our elders.
There is more soul and heart and peace to learn from them than all that is not truly essential, like zeros and ones (codes).
Yeah, listen to the music, to the people who play it. ...And to the people who listen to it.

?

Not so fast. There is a story I am citing from memory. There was a poll done for the 1948 Presidential election. It used candidate preference "ballots" on popcorn bags bought in movie theaters - the famous "popcorn poll". They predicted an easy Dewey victory. And, we have all probably seen the famous photo of a grinning Harry Truman holding up that Chicago newspaper (I cannot remember which newspaper it was) that declared Dewey Defeats Truman as a front page headline, prematurely.

Moral of the story: you have to be sure in making statistical inferences that you have not collected data from a highly skewed population from which you selected your sample.

Don't know about you, but I see some parallels here.
 
we are really missing a large part of the equation with all the focus on graphs and numbers. and I know some of those who prefer digital will dismiss it. but how one's body/senses react to music over time is important.

how much music do you listen to with singular focus daily? not background but with most of your attention. and how do digital and analog work out for that endeavor. how do you feel? does it relax you, or assault you?

do you take a deep breath and melt into the music, or is it a thing 'over there'? and I'm not talking about headphones as we exercise or work as something helping to make time pass, I'm talking about sitting in the sweet spot and having that be satisfying and hold your attention.

what is your bodies relationship to the music listening experience?

and is the difference between analog and digital listening causing a difference in this area?

and I don't expect answers to change anyone's perspective....it's more about making people think about this aspect of listening for them personally and whether they get the payoff they might desire.

I know for myself that this is what happens when I have a group session is the sensory connection to the analog experience is something special.....and different entirely from the digital one. we all get swept up into it and get carried along in the wave. it's exhilarating.

My body/senses react the same to good analog and good digital. I listen to music for excitement and not for relaxation. I can listen to both good analog and good digital for hours without fatigue, if that's what you mean. And they both can be very involving.

The only important difference I perceive between top-level analog and all the digital I have heard so far is resolution of timbral detail and texture.
 
Lots of great conversation here..


Here's a question that I think might be worth pondering - From the poll results, how many people currently own only 1 source, analog or digital and what % voted for that source? While this might seem like a commercial for captain obvious, how much of a bias might this play in your survey selection (what you pick is what you know)? Also, how many have only owned 1 source in their lifetime?

I've owned analog and digital. I currently only own digital and (captain obvious) my choice was digital (but I had the $ for $ caveat).
 
Here's a question that I think might be worth pondering - From the poll results, how many people currently own only 1 source, analog or digital and what % voted for that source?

Who knows? Maybe you should setup a poll to poll those who took the poll. I have both digital and analog in my system and multiple formats for both. I voted for analog.

Also, how many have only owned 1 source in their lifetime?

Do you mean life before digital or life after digital? I think a more interesting poll would be how many people who love digital also have analog in their systems. I have a sneaky feeling there are more people who love analog who do keep digital in their systems and not so many people who love digital who have still have analog in their systems. And having a turntable downstairs in a closet in your basement with a 1' of dust on it doesn't count.
 
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Who knows? Maybe you should setup a poll to poll those who took the poll. I have both digital and analog in my system and multiple formats for both. I voted for analog.



Do you me life before digital or life after digital? I think a more interesting poll would be how many people who love digital also have analog in their systems. I have a sneaky feeling there are more people who love analog who do keep digital in their systems and not so many people who love digital who have still have analog in their systems. And having a turntable downstairs in a closet in your basement with a 1' of dust on it doesn't count.

I have a CD transport and a DAC someplace with probably an inch of dust on them! :D
 
First - the best recording. Second - the best master of the best recording. If it is good enough, it can even overcome the distortions of vinyl. :)

Tim
 
This is a simple poll to get a gauge of our membership with respect to format preference for utmost fidelity. Not looking for a debate. Just interested to see what percentage of our population prefers one or the other. So please vote :).

Analogue; today, yesterday, and most certainly tomorrow. ...But I have already voted. ...Just making a small emphasis, for direction sake.

* If someone has never heard analogue of his entire life, say a twenty year old WBF member; is he going to vote in this thread?
One, I doubt it. Two, even if he does, it won't affect the overall outcome.

Peace in peace out, live intensively and become a better music listener, with the music of your choice, and the medium of your choice. ...It's live and alive.
 
That is the spirit that routinely lacks in our audio endeavors :). Great to see you open to investigation that loop through transparency testing of digital.

Thanks amirm. I appreciate it. I want to remain open minded but, honestly, and with all due respect, I have lost interest in reading your long posts which try so hard to convince us analog lovers that digital is better. My eyes just glazing over. I'll listen how, when, and where I want and form my own opinion using my ears. If my methods are flawed and unscientific, so be it. It will not be blind or looking/reading measurements. I don't have the time, nor, frankly the interest. I simply want to enjoy my music which is on LP.

I happened to hear the best system in my entire life today. It just blew me away. Five hours of bliss with my own software. I know this system well, but the owner just bought a new turntable and arm. We tried to play one of his three DACs for comparison, but the server in the basement had trouble communicating with the DACs and we could not get any sound. He spent half an hour trying to fix things to no avail while I just spun LPs. I would trade systems tomorrow, and I have never thought that about any digital system I have heard.

Someone asked me if I'm a sailor. Yes, and I love wooden boats, but I don't have the time or the money to properly care for one. I recently bought an Alerion Express 28. She has traditional lines and just enough wood above the waterline, and a very modern, performance oriented shape below the waterline. She sails like a dream and I don't really care if it is not the latest and greatest on the race course. It fits my day-sailing needs perfectly and is what I can afford to own and properly maintain. But this is a topic for another forum. I will say that I do enjoy the continuous tweaking of the sheets and lines to adjust the sail shapes for better speed and direction and changing conditions. That I find quite similar to what is required to get the vary best out of an analog rig. I also adjust SRA for each LP before I play it to optimize the sound. There is something very natural and right about the wind, the sea and the analog waves.
 
...I have a sneaky feeling there are more people who love analog who do keep digital in their systems and not so many people who love digital who have still have analog in their systems. And having a turntable downstairs in a closet in your basement with a 1' of dust on it doesn't count.

It would be interesting, because already at least a handful have posted that they are all analog.
 
It would be interesting, because already at least a handful have posted that they are all analog.

And I posted that while I am a digital-only guy, and thus obviously love my digital, I still find analog better -- at least from the best examples I have heard so far in both analog and digital.

I am very curious about a Berkeley Reference DAC though, for example. This is a DAC that I might be willing to still afford some time in the future, and while I do not expect that it will close the gap to the super-analog rigs that I have heard, I would really like to know just far it succeeds in narrowing the gap.
 
In "The Quest for Perfect Sound" (The New Republic, 1985) Edward Rothstein attempts the most beautiful, wondrous and passionate explication of high-end audio ever written. Discussing the philosophical differences between analog and digital, Rothstein writes (quoting partially another article):

"Analog builds models on the optimistic assumption that our modeling technology is infinitely perfectible. . . . Digital, on the other hand, chooses a level of perfection -- the sampling rate -- not approximating perfection but perfecting our approximations."

That of course is debatable. In 1985 digital audio was not well understood by non-experts in that field, and it still is not. See Amir's post:

Hi Bob. I read a ton of articles about audio yet you manage to unearth links I have not seen :). So I read the first one and unfortunately it is completely wrong. It has this common graph:

Analog-Digital%20frequency%20examples.png


What he shows about digital is just flat our wrong. Take a 1 Khz sine wave, convert it to digital, and playing on a CD player. The look at the output from the analog jack on the CD player. It will look just like the original waveform on the left. It never, ever looks like what he is showing. If it did, you would think someone, some place, would have measured a CD player outputting such, rather than a graphic created in a paint program.

So the Nyquist theorem would be correct: a sampling at the 44.1 kHz sampling rate would produce an analog signal at the CD player output up to at least 20 kHz *) that is indistinguishable from the analog input, a perfect "original sound wave" and not at stair-step signal. And with an oscilloscope it can easily be demonstrated that this is, in fact, true (I have seen video demonstrations of such).

Thus, according to the Nyquist theorem digital is not designed to approximate perfection but to represent perfection. So the writer that you cite, Ron, is fundamentally wrong as far as his statement in principle goes (this writer probably had a stair-step output signal in mind).

The question of course is if all what the Nyquist theorem strives to represent in fact also holds with complex music signals. Proponents of digital perfection hold that of course this is true, since any music signal is just a bunch of aggregated sine waves. Detractors say that it cannot be true but that during the actual processing something must go wrong or that the Nyquist theorem somehow does not hold for complex signals.

Personally, my ears tell me that digital has not yet achieved the perfection that should be inherent in the technology -- yet significant progress has been made. Early implementations of digital technology were blissfully unaware of jitter, for example, and over the decades proper clocking technologies have significantly propelled digital sound quality forward. Similarly, the inherent technical limitations of and distortions by brickwall filters had not been recognized in early implementations, and filtering has made great strides as well, e.g., by upsampling of the signal. And all these things, of course, have little to do with the original sampling rate (upsampling just enables a filtering trick -- implementation of a much shallower filter; in most modern cases it is not intended to be a 'compensation' for inferior sampling rate).

In any case, the question is if the underlying theory of digital indeed has problems, or if we just have not found the perfect implementation yet. At this point it remains an open question. Fact is that many early detractors of digital have been astonished at the progress made over the decades, and the end does not yet seem in sight. The open question will continue for a while.

Yet to repeat, it is clear that the author you cite is wrong when he says, again, in 1985 when the true nature of digital processing was not yet more widely appreciated, that "digital, on the other hand, chooses a level of perfection -- the sampling rate -- not approximating perfection but perfecting our approximations." At least in theory, digital is not about approximating but about representing perfection.

___________

*) and no, I do not buy into the nonsense that humans somehow can perceive frequencies above 20 kHz, and thus digital is inherently flawed due to this. Humans cannot hear beyond 20 kHz (actually, mostly only newborns can hear that high anyway), just like they cannot perceive UV light -- while bees can and thus see flowers in gorgeous colors that we cannot, under any circumstance, perceive (I once saw a stunning simulation of what that would look like for us humans).
 
Thanks amirm. I appreciate it. I want to remain open minded but, honestly, and with all due respect, I have lost interest in reading your long posts which try so hard to convince us analog lovers that digital is better.
I am not trying to convince you that digital is better. I am trying to say to not use the arguments being put forward because they are easily dismissed. There are arguments we can make but these are not it.

Stay in love with analog. Just don't try to get technical and propose theories that simply don't hold water.

I simply want to enjoy my music which is on LP.
Which is great. But the moment it becomes a forum argument, and not-so-proper accusation that somehow digital people don't get goosebumps, have never heard "real analog," etc., it goes way beyond "I just want to enjoy music." It becomes, "I am telling you that you are wrong." When you do that, I argue back but do so with references and back up.

I realize you may not value them but vast majority people who read these posts are not the ones triggering the response, but people who either silently read but don't post (far more people read and don't post), or future readers who are searching the web and landing on these discussions. It is my goal to make sure when they do, they don't see a war of words. That we impart knowledge and data. Hence all the technical theory and real life data. Heaven knows we have polluted the internet enough with lay arguments and war of words...
 
Yes, way, way past time for this BS about stairsteps to die. It is so far off track it is not even wrong.

Watch this video.

http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

Using quality analog sources, and quality analog monitoring after an AD/DA stage you will see the above illustration is nothing more than someone's misguided imagination.

If you don't believe him, you can get an O-scope and check it for yourself. Having done so, I can save you the trouble and say don't bother, it will show just what the video shows. But you don't believe any of us? Fine, no problemo. Just get yourself a good analog oscope, quite cheap these days and try it for yourself. Until you confirm the stairsteps, stop perpetuating this god awful, incorrect, BS. You should feel very ashamed. Very ashamed. At a bare minimum you should feel badly for having been taken in. Don't spew this garbage out into the world.
 
I use a $299 squeezebox in my $100 000 system , it is superb , it plays all my 5000+ music collection instantly , Im not futzing with setup etc - just listening and letting the music wash over me..Tidal keeps me occupied with new music and I have 25 000 000 tracks at my fingertips in full resolution. I can see it all on my ipad or droid cell etc...
The sheer convenience is what keeps me there...
$299 wont get me much in an analog front end would it?

I grew up with analog , been there and done that in a big way... I would rather fiddle with stuff like room acoustics and DRC than with a TT these days , the results are in an order of magnitude better... I cant get past clicks and pops anyway...

Thing is , there is no universal truth to all this , those that like analog have as valid a point as those that do digital.
 
I use a $299 squeezebox in my $100 000 system , it is superb , it plays all my 5000+ music collection instantly , Im not futzing with setup etc - just listening and letting the music wash over me..Tidal keeps me occupied with new music and I have 25 000 000 tracks at my fingertips in full resolution. I can see it all on my ipad or droid cell etc...
The sheer convenience is what keeps me there...
$299 wont get me much in an analog front end would it?

I grew up with analog , been there and done that in a big way... I would rather fiddle with stuff like room acoustics and DRC than with a TT these days , the results are in an order of magnitude better... I cant get past clicks and pops anyway...

Thing is , there is no universal truth to all this , those that like analog have as valid a point as those that do digital.

You can run a TT rig through DRC and it will sound better than a digital source through DRC. Counterintutive, but it does
 
I would have to AD the TT..to some thats pure heresy :)
 

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