What are members recommendations on current turntables in the $15K to $22K price range?

[djsina2]

a taste of CS Port. video of the TAT2 compared to the Technics SL-1000R.......but commentary not in English. compare starts at the 9 minute mark. no idea if this was a fair fight, as the finer points are lost in translation.....which i why i call it a taste. in any case the SL1000R (with it's perfect speed) is not chopped liver.

I forced my translator to listen to the end of this video when they compared the two tables.

SL-1000R: it had no noise, good SN ratio, sound is very clear but no character of its own, works well with any genre of music, sounds digital (CD).

TAT2: is more real, vocals more precise, softer overall sound, good SN ratio also, they were thinking the IME1 played a role in the vocals sounding better.

Translator had to leave and couldn’t finish the video. Will try and post more later.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Therefore, fine vibration generated by servo control can not be measured by the measuring instrument, it depends on the human ear."

IMHO this is the critical part that it is not true. If the vibration exists it can surely be measured - it looks like a translation exageration. BTW I remember that DD some turntables had two levels of feedback - one to create an uniform drive and another to keep an ultra accurate speed. Purists could use them without the second feedback loop.

Control theory is much more complex than the elegant but in some sense childish version of feedback drive quote by Mike Lavigne. This text reminds me of the people who claimed than digital could never sound good because the response of a DAC has steps ...

 

[andromedaaudio]

My old tape machines have none of the latest high tech speed regulation devices but the flow / rhythm is just right .
I suppose the natural sound of certain turntable designs lies for a large part elsewhere i think .
But i m not a TT expert

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMHO this is the critical part that it is not true. If the vibration exists it can surely be measured - it looks like a translation exageration. BTW I remember that DD some turntables had two levels of feedback - one to create an uniform drive and another to keep an ultra accurate speed. Purists could use them without the second feedback loop.

Control theory is much more complex than the elegant but in some sense childish version of feedback drive quote by Mike Lavigne. This text reminds me of the people who claimed than digital could never sound good because the response of a DAC has steps ...

maybe. maybe not.

is it that the level of feedback precision needed to equal the grain-less reality of non feedback speed control has not yet been reached?

or is it that the presence of any feedback loop is inherently non musical? not that we don't get excellent performance with feedback, but something is missing to the ears of many when directly compared to high level no feedback.

 

[djsina2]

I forced my translator to listen to the end of this video when they compared the two tables.

SL-1000R: it had no noise, good SN ratio, sound is very clear but no character of its own, works well with any genre of music, sounds digital (CD).

TAT2: is more real, vocals more precise, softer overall sound, good SN ratio also, they were thinking the IME1 played a role in the vocals sounding better.

Translator had to leave and couldn’t finish the video. Will try and post more later.

That’s about it on the translation. At the end they were saying the TAT2 is more live sounding. They are also using Platanus cartridges, which I had never heard of.

 

[tima]

is it that the level of feedback precision needed to equal the grain-less reality of non feedback speed control has not yet been reached?

or is it that the presence of any feedback loop is inherently non musical? not that we don't get excellent performance with feedback, but something is missing to the ears of many when directly compared to no feedback.

As you said, Mike. Maybe. Maybe not.

You presume too much. Rather than insulting listeners whose ears fail to find missing what yours do, you are more convincing if you extoll the purported virtues of what you advocate or give an actual explanation (rather than ad copy) to demonstrate the inferiority of the design approach you believe lacking. The argument that A is good because B is not might convince some but it doesn't wear well over time.

 

[microstrip]

maybe. maybe not.

is it that the level of feedback precision needed to equal the grain-less reality of non feedback speed control has not yet been reached?

Feedback precision? What is this?

or is it that the presence of any feedback loop is inherently non musical? not that we don't get excellent performance with feedback, but something is missing to the ears of many when directly compared to high level no feedback.

Properly designing with feedback needs a lot more expertise than simple open loop designs. But once feedback is judiciously applied I can't see any reason why it must be inherently non musical. And yes, some people say they prefer the distortion characteristics of non-feedback designs, but this does not prove anything.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i will ponder that request.

i tried to figure it out, ran out of inspiration before i could.. maybe later at some point.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Feedback precision? What is this?



Properly designing with feedback needs a lot more expertise than simple open loop designs. But once feedback is judiciously applied I can't see any reason why it must be inherently non musical. And yes, some people say they prefer the distortion characteristics of non-feedback designs, but this does not prove anything.

no one ever proves anything on WBF. it has little to do with our discussions. i have no illusions of proof. even if two people hear the same thing it's still not necessarily clear evidence. we can get people to agree about things occasionally. but that is still not proof.

lots of attempts at convincing however.....ideally involving listening.

btw; feedback precision is the resolution/frequency and performance of the feedback process. all feedback/servo's are not created equal.

 

[Atmasphere]

unfortunately they don't necessarily know what they are listening for. so their sorting out is no more valid that any other's. R&D budget performance relevance is relative to your reference. unless you are racing or killing. i've owned SP-10 Mk2's and MK3's. they do plenty of things right. but are not the last word.

lot's of turntables sound pretty good. beyond that it's preference. mine is non servo so far.

If we're talking about control theory (and we are) then you don't have to listen to it to get it right, while at the same time it appears to me a bit sketchy to assume that Technics didn't have any idea about what they were hearing since audiophiles have always played a role in their upper management. They did what they did out of sheer coincidence? IMO the biggest weakness of the SP-10 was and is the simple fact that it has no plinth (having been designed for radio station application) so you have to build one, one that really works (probably machined from solid alimunum or the like), to see what it can do. So most people really never find out what they are really about.

At any rate they are more speed stable than the machines that cut the LPs, unless the LP was cut on a machine that used the Technics SP10 MkIII platform (it was designed with so much torque for exactly that purpose). My Scully lathe employs a 1/8th horsepower synchronous motor; requires regular maintenance of the platter thrust bearings and has to be warmed up for 20 minutes prior to use in order to achieve its specification. The Scully was a mainstay of LP mastering for quite a while- many Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence LPs were cut on them. Other machines like the Neumann employed similar technique. Our 208 (prior to being discontinued) was one of the more speed-stable belt drive machines money could buy, but the Scully is better.

Studer tape machines also employ servo controlled direct drive for their capstan motors as did Ampex, Tascam and a few others. It strikes me as a bit odd how well respected they are in high end audio by tape buffs yet no comments on the obvious speed issues that they must have when using a very similar drive (early Ampex like the 350 transport are direct drive too but rely on synchronous motors). Since they run at a higher rpm, there would be less time for correction, yet somehow they seem to pull it off.

So two important places where the questionable speed stability of direct-drive is imbued into the media but we don't talk about that. But if anything, it must be the worst place because you have at least two tape machines (one to record, one for LP mastering playback) involved plus the LP mastering itself. Yet LPs produced in just this fashion have become reference in many audiophiles collections.

I very much doubt I'm the only one seeing the complexity of this explanation. A simpler (Occam's Razor to the rescue) one is that servo control actually does work according to the rules of control theory and the speed stability is thus better. That would explain a lot!

 

[Atmasphere]

all feedback/servo's are not created equal.

This is true. A firm grasp of control theory is required. That is why Technics was the one to catch from the very beginning of direct drive with the SL-1100. They had it sorted with access to real engineering.

 

[Simon Templar]

I've been attempting to find an Oracle Hard Acrylic Mat.... but I've not had much luck as yet.

Anybody know a good source?

 

[bonzo75]

I've been attempting to find an Oracle Hard Acrylic Mat.... but I've not had much luck as yet.

Anybody know a good source?

You a big fan of the saint?

 

[Atmasphere]

I've been attempting to find an Oracle Hard Acrylic Mat.... but I've not had much luck as yet.

Anybody know a good source?

Have you contacted Oracle?

 

[Simon Templar]

Have you contacted Oracle?

I did....but they didn't respond for several weeks. (Seems to be a thing with turntable companies at present. Nottingham hasn't returned an email in over three months.)

Just received my Oracle mat a couple days ago.

Thanks to all!


.....sT

 

[andromedaaudio]

I've been attempting to find an Oracle Hard Acrylic Mat.... but I've not had much luck as yet.

Anybody know a good source?

Amazon and a little DIY

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[DasguteOhr]

I've been attempting to find an Oracle Hard Acrylic Mat.... but I've not had much luck as yet.

Anybody know a good source?

Here

Oracle Hard Acrylic Mat

For all Delphi models and Alexandria

brooksberdanltd.com

or have them made by Tizo, make custom-made products

TIZO ACRYL Manufaktur für Plattenspieler Zubehör & Analog Fachhändler

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[hogen]

The new NEO models from Acoustic Signature are seriously good. I have been testing the TA5000NEO arm recently, I hardly think there is another that good tonearm at that price point, it was clearly better than any other tonearm I have at hand at the moment. I would check out an Acoustic Signature NEO turntable and arm.

 

[KPC]

…...which i see (the LFT1) as a bargain.

Thanks for the tip

 

[KPC]

@Lee- perhaps the OMA CAST IRON SP10 PLINTH SYSTEM may be to your liking.

Fremer raved about it:

Analog Corner #282: OMA Plinth for Technics SP10, SAT CF1-12 tonearm, Doshi V3.0 phono stage

Last May I got a text message from my vinyl-loving electrician: "Hey Michael, I'm listening to WFMU and a young 12 year old analog genius is guest DJ-ing, Malachi Lui. He mentioned you, and talks about mastering and pressingshe's incredible. I imagine he's been in touch with you. Hope all is...

www.stereophile.com

and was discuss by this forum as well:

Technics SP-10R with OMA cast-iron plinth : both Modern & Nostalgic!

Technics has launched their new model of direct-drive turntable SP-10R for a few years. There isn't any dealer for it in Hong Kong so it's until last week that I had the chance to listen to it at a friend's home. My friend David pairs it with the Oswalda Mill Audio cast-iron plinth. MF wrote a...

www.whatsbestforum.com