What ethernet cables are members using?
- Thread starter Lee
- Start date
Blue jean cables which are cut to size. Each cable is delivered with actual measurements.
For those needing audio cables from Ethernet to SPDIF to long balanced interconnects I have over a decade of experience using BJC in those applications. Andrew, the General Manager is a gentleman and always reliable. We sell our own line of Westminster Lab hand built high-end cables and they are very special, but for those on a budget and in need of longer run interconnects you simply cannot go wrong with BJC.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
So I have been reading here and there about the impact of directional flow through ethernet cables. A person is claiming on another forum that he is playing with reversing ethernet cables and claiming improved sound?
Thoughts??
I am Fiber so not really applicable for my application just curious if any here have experimented at all.
Thoughts??
I am Fiber so not really applicable for my application just curious if any here have experimented at all.
I also run fiber to my Lumin X1.
But I do have a short length of WW Platinum 8 Ethernet cable from the router/modem to the ether Regen. Never thought about reversing the direction. Seems odd, but so are many things in this hobby that are difficult to explain, so I may try it.
ozzy
But I do have a short length of WW Platinum 8 Ethernet cable from the router/modem to the ether Regen. Never thought about reversing the direction. Seems odd, but so are many things in this hobby that are difficult to explain, so I may try it.
ozzy
I just replaced my Pangea Ethernet with Triode Wire Labs. I'm very happy with the upgrade...great cable- great price.
Still, there is more to the way a cable performs other than specifications/measurements.
ozzy
ozzy
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Sure hit the nail on the head there Ozzy. I am a fan of Supra Cat 8 cables and they replaced BJ cable on by daughters system. But some may love the BJ Cat 6.......
You'll definitely get a different sound reversing the cable direction.
I usually prefer the sound in the direction of the arrows, but with some cables you might prefer the opposite direction.
Kenny, I have to be honest here. The Shunyata Omega (while a stellar cable) did not do as much for me in my system as the Muon Pro filter.
I have made considerable changes since my last post and I must say that out of all of my upgrades? This item has earned the top spot. I don't know what it does....I don't know what's in that box and TBT? I really do not care.
The only thing is what hits these ears.
With that said. The first 5 or 6 days were dreadfully painful to listen too. I wouldn't even advise trying to listen. You will want to return it. (This is with keeping the rig on 24/7 during that period)
After that? Minimal changes but what you hear? It's an experience that I would love to enjoy over and over again for the rest of my life, if it were ever possible. It offers a "presentation" unlike any I have personally heard. In my opinion......if you stream at the level I am at? This should be standard equipment to extract the most out of what your system has to offer.
Yes, I really am that enamored with it. No offense to Shunyata and Cailen but in this case? The Muon gets the top spot, hands down. (although I must say that the pairing is beyond what I ever expected). Thanks to both companies for offering what I hear...
Tom
That’s good to know - thanks for sharing.
I am usually apprehensive when I see the word “filter” used. Filters can seem really beneficial at first, but when they are later pulled from the system it can be apparent that they were doing harm. Have you removed the Muon Pro and found there to be any tradeoffs?
This is absolutely true for ethernet cables.
This only becomes apparent after spending time with the cable.
It's not just the Muon, Shunyata uses filters also.
@kennyb123
No intention on doing so. I had 3 filters on 2 of the Shunyata E cables I have and while they did good, I went over to a friend of mine's house and listened to his rig that has the same amp I run with and he had the Muon. (He is running with the Focal Utopia Grandes and I have the Tyler Acoustics Woodmeres. Both of us have the Lumin U1 with the X1 PS).
It was what I was expecting to hear (based upon what I had in my system), but that Muon took things further. The presentation was enough for me to pull the trigger on a Muon Pro.
Songs like, "You make me feel like it's Halloween" by Muse and James Blake's, "Limit to your love" take on an.......oh that reminds me...Monstercat's Uncaged, "Bliss on Mushrooms" all take on a presentation that is stunning to listen to.
It makes the presentation go well beyond just the speakers disappearing and it is a wonderful experience.
It's not just those songs but these songs stand out greatly from the rest for bringing out what the Muon and Muon Pro can do.
It happens on both my friends system and mine the same way, so the results are repeatable. It is for this reason that I don't want to take it out. It would be nice if I could simply teleport you to my system and let you hear it for yourself. Once you hear what it does, you would understand.
For some reason, it takes a piano and makes it more realistic sounding than any other component or device I have ever laid my ears on. Live concerts take on a whole new presence and it's simply wonderful to experience.
The Shunyata Alpha and Omega cables both have filters on them and they did some of what the Muon does but the Muon just takes it to a whole other level. One that I am absolutely having a blast listening too. Things like this is what makes this hobby so much fun!
Tom
No intention on doing so. I had 3 filters on 2 of the Shunyata E cables I have and while they did good, I went over to a friend of mine's house and listened to his rig that has the same amp I run with and he had the Muon. (He is running with the Focal Utopia Grandes and I have the Tyler Acoustics Woodmeres. Both of us have the Lumin U1 with the X1 PS).
It was what I was expecting to hear (based upon what I had in my system), but that Muon took things further. The presentation was enough for me to pull the trigger on a Muon Pro.
Songs like, "You make me feel like it's Halloween" by Muse and James Blake's, "Limit to your love" take on an.......oh that reminds me...Monstercat's Uncaged, "Bliss on Mushrooms" all take on a presentation that is stunning to listen to.
It makes the presentation go well beyond just the speakers disappearing and it is a wonderful experience.
It's not just those songs but these songs stand out greatly from the rest for bringing out what the Muon and Muon Pro can do.
It happens on both my friends system and mine the same way, so the results are repeatable. It is for this reason that I don't want to take it out. It would be nice if I could simply teleport you to my system and let you hear it for yourself. Once you hear what it does, you would understand.
For some reason, it takes a piano and makes it more realistic sounding than any other component or device I have ever laid my ears on. Live concerts take on a whole new presence and it's simply wonderful to experience.
The Shunyata Alpha and Omega cables both have filters on them and they did some of what the Muon does but the Muon just takes it to a whole other level. One that I am absolutely having a blast listening too. Things like this is what makes this hobby so much fun!
Tom
Thanks again, Tom. Not all filters are bad, what matters is that the filter doesn’t do harm to the analog domain. Shunyata has a proven track record in this area. It sounds like Muon is another company doing things right.
I will never in my lifetime purchase another networking product that maxes out at 100 mbps, so the Muon Pro is not for me, unfortunately.
I am not a computer nerd nor do I claim to understand how cables work. I have an Araknis network switch system which is in a different room than my two. channel area. I have been using a 60ft fiber optic cable direct to my Lucas Audio Music server. I have just upgraded my LDMS and I am going to switch back to Cat 6 from the same location.
So now I need an Ethernet cable from the wall to my LDMS. I am having a hard time understanding how this 2-foot Ethernet cable which is receiving a digital signal from 60 ft away can all of a sudden change the sound. It is a basic digital signal. How can an ethernet cable enhance the signal to a server? I can totally understand the cable going from my LDMS to my Horizon is extremely important. BTW, I am looking at the QSA Lanedi Ethernet cable and it is really expensive. That is why I am asking this question.
I am not arguing that you need a great Ethernet cable, I just want to make the right investment in my overall system.
So now I need an Ethernet cable from the wall to my LDMS. I am having a hard time understanding how this 2-foot Ethernet cable which is receiving a digital signal from 60 ft away can all of a sudden change the sound. It is a basic digital signal. How can an ethernet cable enhance the signal to a server? I can totally understand the cable going from my LDMS to my Horizon is extremely important. BTW, I am looking at the QSA Lanedi Ethernet cable and it is really expensive. That is why I am asking this question.
I am not arguing that you need a great Ethernet cable, I just want to make the right investment in my overall system.
Back in 2019, when I was setting up my first "streaming" system, I used an approach for evaluating Ethernet cable that I learned working as a Design for Six Sigma Master Belt, "Competitive Benchmarking". From the Cable Company I rented in Ethernet cables from Audioquest, Wireworld, and also bought some affordable Ethernet cables. The cables I evaluated in my benchmarking were AQ Cinnamon, AQ Vodka, WW Starlight Cat 8, Supra Cat 8, generic Belden Cat 6A, and Shunyata Venom and Alpha.
The worst was generic Belden Cat 6A. The WW Starlight Cat 8 had some good qualities, but I found it excessively bright and fatiguing for more than 30 minutes or so. The AQ Cinnamon was decent, better than the Belden, not as good as the Supra Cat 8, which of all the affordable cables, was my favorite, though it could be a bit forward and aggressive, depending on the mastering of specific content.
The Shunyata Ethernet cables, however, were in a whole other league, it wasn't even close. Even the "entry-level" smoked virtually everything else, and by a ways. The Alpha was even better because it's C-Mode filter reduced the noise floor even more (quite a bit more, actually). I remember I had an audio buddy over one night and I was demoing the various Ethernet cables for him, and I remember when I replaced the AQ Vodka (which actually, is a nice cable) with the Shunyata Alpha, and he literally blurted out, "OMG! Who took the kink out of the hose?!?"
So, I got a set of Sigmas for the set-up (which are even quieter than the Alphas because they have two C-Mode filters instead of one), and used those until the Omega came out. And as Kenny has mentioned, the Omega has two C-Mode and TAP filters in them, and as such, are REALLY impressive. It's quite jump over the Sigma, so I used it between my EtherREGEN and my SOtM SMS-200 UltreaNeo network bridge. So personally, with all the Ethernet cable "benchmarking I've done first-hand, I've not heard anything that comes close to an Omega* Ethernet cable. Or, Venom, Alpha or Sigma, for that matter.
*-Side note: when I got my (wonderful) Lumin P1, I didn't need the SOtM anymore, so I put the Omega Ethernet cable up for sale, and it sold the same day I listed it. Same for the Omega USB, actually, but that's off-topic for this thread.
The worst was generic Belden Cat 6A. The WW Starlight Cat 8 had some good qualities, but I found it excessively bright and fatiguing for more than 30 minutes or so. The AQ Cinnamon was decent, better than the Belden, not as good as the Supra Cat 8, which of all the affordable cables, was my favorite, though it could be a bit forward and aggressive, depending on the mastering of specific content.
The Shunyata Ethernet cables, however, were in a whole other league, it wasn't even close. Even the "entry-level" smoked virtually everything else, and by a ways. The Alpha was even better because it's C-Mode filter reduced the noise floor even more (quite a bit more, actually). I remember I had an audio buddy over one night and I was demoing the various Ethernet cables for him, and I remember when I replaced the AQ Vodka (which actually, is a nice cable) with the Shunyata Alpha, and he literally blurted out, "OMG! Who took the kink out of the hose?!?"
So, I got a set of Sigmas for the set-up (which are even quieter than the Alphas because they have two C-Mode filters instead of one), and used those until the Omega came out. And as Kenny has mentioned, the Omega has two C-Mode and TAP filters in them, and as such, are REALLY impressive. It's quite jump over the Sigma, so I used it between my EtherREGEN and my SOtM SMS-200 UltreaNeo network bridge. So personally, with all the Ethernet cable "benchmarking I've done first-hand, I've not heard anything that comes close to an Omega* Ethernet cable. Or, Venom, Alpha or Sigma, for that matter.
*-Side note: when I got my (wonderful) Lumin P1, I didn't need the SOtM anymore, so I put the Omega Ethernet cable up for sale, and it sold the same day I listed it. Same for the Omega USB, actually, but that's off-topic for this thread.
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Hi Wilgolf,
Respectfully, it's not a "digital signal"; that is only how the data is encoded. The actual signal is an analog voltage "square wave", and as such is susceptible to number of "noise factors", all of which have, and do, exert an audible impact on what is heard. The other important point for folks to understand, is that a lot of folks (most, probably), think that the "noise" rides "down low", at the bottom of the "signal + noise" component of the source "information" being amplified. This is not true: the noise actually rides "on top" of the signal...as such, its deteriorates and degrades the integrity of signal itself As shown here with a digital signal source.
This is reality: here's a graphic depicting 2 and 5 noise components riding on top of the analog voltage square wave that actually comprises a digital signal (BTW there are NO 0's and 1's, that is only how the original digital information is encoded, but I digress).
Copper Ethernet cables are also susceptible to other noise factors, including low- and high-source leakage impedance current as well as C-Mode (common-mode) noise, which also impact audio quality.
The reason that optical fiber provides a benefit is that it does not pass low- and high-source impedance leakage current, and this leakage current results in threshold jitter. Not to get too deep into the weeds here, but even the cores for the isolation transformers in the R45 jacks in an Ethernet switch can have an audible effect.
While I dig up some more info, I recommend you read this white paper by John Swenson, who designed the EtherREGEN, and worked as a professional Ethernet engineer for Broadcom and CISCO for the better part of 40 years.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...enson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386
I'll be back with some additional info as to why a copper Ethernet cable can have an audible impact on audio quality....meantime, read the white paper by John. Cheers.
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Wilgolf, some additional info that will be helpful in understanding how an Ethernet cable can impact audio quality. This is some basic, foundational info:
Remember, the signal is an electromagnetic wave that propogates down the cable (it is not electrons flowing through the cable like water in a hose or marbles in a tube). The Vp (propogation velocity) of the signal is frequency-dependent, and an electromagnetic "signal" wave can reach the end of the cable and "reflect back", just like water in a tub or pool. This means different frequencies propagate down and reach the end of the cable at different times. And, because the Vp is different for different frequencies, there will be a number of "back reflections" occuring at...different times†.
This is just some foundational info to understand, that particularly with respect to digital sources, our brains are very, very sensitive to the impact of timing. For digital audio, for example, we can actually hear the influence of timing errors in the picosecond range, which is why we use femtoclocks for components like DACs, streamers, network switches, network bridges, etc. The Sonore EtherREGEN uses a Crystek CCHD-575 clock, and this crystal oscillator was chosen specifically for it's audio quality. This is why components like the Cybershaft master clocks, etc., have such a positive impact, and why EtherREGEN also has an external 50 Ohm clock input*.
The 1.5 M minimal length that Shunyata uses for Ethernet cables and USB cables, for example, was empirically determined as the shortest length that can be used to minimize the impact of signal wave "reflections" on audio quality.
It's physics, so yeah, it's a real thing*
*–Here is a figure showing the impact of signal/timing for Iconoclast speaker cables from Galen Garies, EE and audio cable lead engineer at Belden.
†-these timing differences can be measured using a time-domain reflectometer.
*-An EtherREGEN's audible performance can be signifcantly enhanced by use of an external master clock, e.g. the AfterDark series of master clocks.
Remember, the signal is an electromagnetic wave that propogates down the cable (it is not electrons flowing through the cable like water in a hose or marbles in a tube). The Vp (propogation velocity) of the signal is frequency-dependent, and an electromagnetic "signal" wave can reach the end of the cable and "reflect back", just like water in a tub or pool. This means different frequencies propagate down and reach the end of the cable at different times. And, because the Vp is different for different frequencies, there will be a number of "back reflections" occuring at...different times†.
This is just some foundational info to understand, that particularly with respect to digital sources, our brains are very, very sensitive to the impact of timing. For digital audio, for example, we can actually hear the influence of timing errors in the picosecond range, which is why we use femtoclocks for components like DACs, streamers, network switches, network bridges, etc. The Sonore EtherREGEN uses a Crystek CCHD-575 clock, and this crystal oscillator was chosen specifically for it's audio quality. This is why components like the Cybershaft master clocks, etc., have such a positive impact, and why EtherREGEN also has an external 50 Ohm clock input*.
The 1.5 M minimal length that Shunyata uses for Ethernet cables and USB cables, for example, was empirically determined as the shortest length that can be used to minimize the impact of signal wave "reflections" on audio quality.
It's physics, so yeah, it's a real thing*
*–Here is a figure showing the impact of signal/timing for Iconoclast speaker cables from Galen Garies, EE and audio cable lead engineer at Belden.
†-these timing differences can be measured using a time-domain reflectometer.
*-An EtherREGEN's audible performance can be signifcantly enhanced by use of an external master clock, e.g. the AfterDark series of master clocks.
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Now, the reason that a run of "optical" (specifically, "optical isolation") works is that that it prevents the passage of low- and high-source impedance leakage current. This leakage current leads to threshold jitter, which causes timing errors, which our brains are very sensitive to when listening to music being streamed from a server. Copper Ethernet can pass leakage current, which is why a run of optical, even a short run, will generally provide an audible improvement. The "fiber boxes" now avaible, e.g. the Ediscreation, the Telegartner, EtherREGEN (ER), Sonore OpticalRendu and OpticalModules (OM) make an improvement because they circumvent the passage of this leakage current (optical can't pass current, the signal is a "stream" of photons). It's important to understand, though, that using optical will not remove phase noise from the sh*tty clocks often used "upstream" (e.g., from consumer-grade routers, generic switches, FMCs, etc.).
And like any "digital-domain" device used for audio, the quality of the power supplies and the clocks in these types of devices make a notable difference as well. Linear power supplies can mitigate leakage current from SMPS, for example, and thus, threshold jiiter, and the better clocks in these devices produce less phase noise. For example, one (but not only) the reasons that the EtherREGEN, Sonore OpticalModule sound better than "generic networking" devices is they utilize better clocks, which results in less phase noise. Using an LPS with these eliminates the leakage current, and thus further improves audio quality. There's no magic in any of the devices here; and some of these devices manage or mitigate the noise factors (low- and high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, phase noise, common-mode noise, etc). better than others. At the end of the day, it's all physics, and how does a product minimize the impact of noise, timing errors, and maximize the signal.
And like any "digital-domain" device used for audio, the quality of the power supplies and the clocks in these types of devices make a notable difference as well. Linear power supplies can mitigate leakage current from SMPS, for example, and thus, threshold jiiter, and the better clocks in these devices produce less phase noise. For example, one (but not only) the reasons that the EtherREGEN, Sonore OpticalModule sound better than "generic networking" devices is they utilize better clocks, which results in less phase noise. Using an LPS with these eliminates the leakage current, and thus further improves audio quality. There's no magic in any of the devices here; and some of these devices manage or mitigate the noise factors (low- and high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, phase noise, common-mode noise, etc). better than others. At the end of the day, it's all physics, and how does a product minimize the impact of noise, timing errors, and maximize the signal.
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