Which DACs are upgradeable? Any brands fighting obsolescence?

[microstrip]

IMHO the quality of distribution and dealership can not be ignored in this matter. If in your zone there is poor assistance, a user changeable modular system can be very welcome. However if we have excellent support and the process of factory or distributor upgrades is efficient and transparent to the user, other approaches can be financially advantageous.

Unfortunately most of time the situation is not transparent - prices of upgrades are not public and are calculated in an individual base, using factors such as equipment age, original ownership and friendships.

BTW, some people would consider that multi-box digital systems are intrinsically modular, but using big modules ...

 

[agillis]

Most DACs are upgradable. A lot of the new feature like MQA can be added to DAC firmware. A lot of the new feature being added to DAC are things like DSD. DSD requires a second DAC chip on the board so this is not a simple upgrade.

If you really like the sound of your old DAC keep it! You can use software like Roon to unfold MQA and send it to your old DAC. Roon will also convert DSD files to PCM in real time so you can play them on your non DSD DAC..

You may be able to get better sound out of MQA and DSD with DACs that naively support them but in our tests MQA and DSD sound very good on older DACs as well.

Another feature on a lot of new DAC is a network port. A network port alllows you can stream music directly to your DAC. If your DAC has a USB input you can use a network player such as an ultraRendu to add streaming functionality to your DAC. The the Reandu player or other streamer your DAC will show up directly in Roon or on a DLNA controller.

If you love the sound of your DAC there are plenty of options to upgrade without getting a new one.

 

[microstrip]

Those who complain about expensive DAC's devaluating after a few years should see this advert - https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/nola-concert-grand-gold-speakers-complete.26997/post-545282 - and it seeems they are a great buy for Audio Research lovers.

 

[caesar]

Gentlemen, I appreciate the replies. So does anyone understand when a company makes a transition from one box to the next? For example, dcs recently got rid of the debussy box and has replaced it with the new bartok product. Yet they have been laying software changes on the Vivaldi and Rossini.

What determines whether one can keep upgrading software on an existing box, vs. having to replace the physical box?

 

[Vicks7]

As a bystander on this thread, I just wanted to remark that this is generally a great, useful and informative thread. In building my system over the years, the biggest mistake (and waste of money) I have made has been on the digital side (I bought into APL and spent a fortune and now have an inferior, expensive outdated product) and there is no way on earth I will be investing in DACs again until I am convinced that a product is future-proof as much as possible, at least to the extent that you are going to be able to stay with the product for a significant period of time and not see your DAC be consigned to the rubbish heap after a year. I appreciate the difficulty too for the manufacturers to do this but if they want the big bucks they all need to start thinking along these lines. Finally a note to say that in considering the MSB products I had a great exchange with Asiufy at Alma Music and Audio - he was very helpful and a straight shooter and if I ever have the dough for an MSB I will likely be a customer of his.
Happy holidays to you all.
James

 

[asiufy]

Thanks for the very kind words, James!
I'm familiar with your rig, and I know what the MSB can do for it

cheers,
Alex

 

[Bar81]

Your mistake wasn't buying a DAC of 5+ years ago; no DAC from that era is anywhere near current SOTA nor could they be upgraded to be. Rather, the mistake was pouring huge sums of money into a one man show with a limited track record in the business with exhorbitantly priced products which meant that there would be little to no market when you came to sell the product - the company appears to still be around but once the initial crazy hype died down regarding their modifications of Esoteric products they fell by the wayside.

I'm not sure what products you're buying but I've never bought a digital product that was obsolete the next year. There's nothing that's future proof irrespective of what a company tries to tell you. What you need to look at is the track record of the company, confirm that they support their products for an extended period of time (offering reasonably priced upgrades when incremental advancements are made) and that their new SOTA DAC platform introductions are no less than five years apart.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Vicks, maybe a stupid q.

Why do you feel you're stuck with an "inferior, expensive outdated product"?

Wasn't APL one of those go-to brands offering a highly analog type presentation, very much the polar opposite from the more typical names of the day 5-10 years ago.
Surely that still applies?

My Eera cdp may have more in common w the dinosaur than a current combo of SGM and MSB, but it still presses all my emotional buttons, in a nearly decade old design.
I'd have thought APL would do similarly.

Expensive? It is what it is, you obviously thought it was worth it when you bought it.

Outdated? Surely not SQ, maybe inability to upscale?

 

[Vicks7]

Your mistake wasn't buying a DAC of 5+ years ago; no DAC from that era is anywhere near current SOTA nor could they be upgraded to be. Rather, the mistake was pouring huge sums of money into a one man show with a limited track record in the business with exhorbitantly priced products which meant that there would be little to no market when you came to sell the product - the company appears to still be around but once the initial crazy hype died down regarding their modifications of Esoteric products they fell by the wayside.

I'm not sure what products you're buying but I've never bought a digital product that was obsolete the next year. There's nothing that's future proof irrespective of what a company tries to tell you. What you need to look at is the track record of the company, confirm that they support their products for an extended period of time (offering reasonably priced upgrades when incremental advancements are made) and that their new SOTA DAC platform introductions are no less than five years apart.

Very well said. Agree 100%. I was a fool.

 

[Al M.]

Your mistake wasn't buying a DAC of 5+ years ago; no DAC from that era is anywhere near current SOTA nor could they be upgraded to be. Rather, the mistake was pouring huge sums of money into a one man show with a limited track record in the business with exhorbitantly priced products which meant that there would be little to no market when you came to sell the product - the company appears to still be around but once the initial crazy hype died down regarding their modifications of Esoteric products they fell by the wayside.

I'm not sure what products you're buying but I've never bought a digital product that was obsolete the next year. There's nothing that's future proof irrespective of what a company tries to tell you. What you need to look at is the track record of the company, confirm that they support their products for an extended period of time (offering reasonably priced upgrades when incremental advancements are made) and that their new SOTA DAC platform introductions are no less than five years apart.

Not quite sure about that. How upgradeable was the dCS Scarlatti, and how much is it worth now?

 

[Enatai252]

I don't know what you're talking about. Owners of that product, and even ones BEFORE it, can have their DACs upgraded with the latest Renderer module, with Roon endpoint compatibility, and even adding MQA. How many 2013 DACs can do that? That's upgradability.

Now, if you want a new product, built on an entirely new platform, yeah, you talk to your dealer and upgrade your whole DAC to the new one.

The dCS Vivaldi stack was released in 2012....I bought it the same year. They continue to provide updates and improvements including Roon endpoint compatibility and now MQA full conversion. In the last 6 years there has been one HW upgrade to the network card in the upsampler and the price was a little north of $1k. So I would offer that the Vivaldi has aged well and it’s internal modular design and DAC design provides head room for additional future upgrades as the tech evolves.....although as a realist I do eventually expect dCS will come out with a new statement piece....but seven years in I have not listened to a DAC I prefer more

Had I bought the top of line MSB at that same time....I would not have fared as well. Time will tell if the Select or Ref products get replaced with a “entirely new platform” 3-4 years out. And to be clear I like the sound of the Select....just prefer the Vivaldi and IMHO it has a better track record of upgradability at least so far.

 

[microstrip]

Not quite sure about that. How upgradeable was the dCS Scarlatti, and how much is it worth now?

Prices of used high-end are currently mostly due to offer and demand. You can find people asking very different prices for used Scarlatti's. I have listened to the Scarlatti stack many times and I would prefer it to the Puccini or many current DACs, but many audiophiles only want recent/new products and only buy at full price from dealers.

DCS carried several upgrades in the Scarlatti line after the lunch of the Vivaldi, some just to assure compatibility between pieces of both lines - many people own mixed systems, for example the Vivaldi DAC and Scarlatti transport/upsampler/clock.

The decision of not upgrading the Scarlatti and introducing a new line was mostly due to the need to create a new identity to DCS, built around the Vivaldi fascias style, that propagated to all the models. This has been explained by the DCS people some years ago, the old looks were not easily identified by the public.

 

[Al M.]

Had I bought the top of line MSB at that same time....I would not have fared as well. Time will tell if the Select or Ref products get replaced with a “entirely new platform” 3-4 years out. And to be clear I like the sound of the Select....just prefer the Vivaldi and IMHO it has a better track record of upgradability at least so far.

May I ask, what is it in the sound of the Vivaldi that makes you prefer it to the Select? I have only heard the Vivaldi myself, not the Select, so I am just curious.

 

[Enatai252]

I would say it’s the perspective and venue cues that I hear from the dCS rather than any specific sonic attribute. Both provide world class sonics across a variety of formats. I like small jazz quartets/trios and to my ears...the dCS provides a clearer and more appropriate sized perspective of the individual performers and their spacing, along with a greater sensation as to the recorded space. Certain instruments like tenor sax or piano are just “Right” when played through my system. This is MHO and others may feel differently which is fine by me-get what you enjoy the most...I am not one to use hyperbole and at this level you won’t be unhappy with either the dCS or the Select. Or many other options out there for that matter (I listen to the same music on the Rossini in my study and greatly enjoy those.istening sessions as well but that system has less scale than main system) I bought the DCS stack because I liked what it did in my system....it has not let me down....

 

[DaveyF]

Yesterday I was discussing this very subject with a friend who happens to be an electrical engineer. We talked about future upgradeability and the trend in high end digital to have replaceable modules to (hopefully) insure upgradeabilty. While my friend was initially impressed with the modular aspect, he made a very interesting comment...he stated that as time goes by, connections and other hardware aspects are non-retrofitable. To that he added that in the ever changing digital world, to be able to compensate for newer technology with a simple board swap and connection, is a short term option. One that he believed wouldn’t be probable even five years hence!
One of the reasons that I bought my very inexpensive EAD 7000 Mk 3 DAC with HDCD decoding is because even after twenty years it still sounds good, and it’s dirt cheap to buy and keep running. Sure the latest and greatest will beat it, but at what cost? OTOH, analog really isn’t changing in such leaps and bounds...so that’s where I place my funds.All IMHO.

 

[Al M.]

I would say it’s the perspective and venue cues that I hear from the dCS rather than any specific sonic attribute. Both provide world class sonics across a variety of formats. I like small jazz quartets/trios and to my ears...the dCS provides a clearer and more appropriate sized perspective of the individual performers and their spacing, along with a greater sensation as to the recorded space. Certain instruments like tenor sax or piano are just “Right” when played through my system. This is MHO and others may feel differently which is fine by me-get what you enjoy the most...I am not one to use hyperbole and at this level you won’t be unhappy with either the dCS or the Select. Or many other options out there for that matter (I listen to the same music on the Rossini in my study and greatly enjoy those.istening sessions as well but that system has less scale than main system) I bought the DCS stack because I liked what it did in my system....it has not let me down....

Thank you for your perspective.

 

[rblnr]

I believed then as I believe now that much of a DAC's sound lies in the analog output stage.

This is my belief too.

PS Audio just released new software for the Directstream, but haven't A/Bd yet vs. the old software to have a an opinion yet. They've delivered on their promise of regular updates.

 

[Vicks7]

Vicks, maybe a stupid q.

Why do you feel you're stuck with an "inferior, expensive outdated product"?

Wasn't APL one of those go-to brands offering a highly analog type presentation, very much the polar opposite from the more typical names of the day 5-10 years ago.
Surely that still applies?

My Eera cdp may have more in common w the dinosaur than a current combo of SGM and MSB, but it still presses all my emotional buttons, in a nearly decade old design.
I'd have thought APL would do similarly.

Expensive? It is what it is, you obviously thought it was worth it when you bought it.

Outdated? Surely not SQ, maybe inability to upscale?

not a stupid question. APL is still very musical IMHO and does not suffer from any digital glare (closer to analogue in sound) but it is now outclassed by DACs costing half the price such as the T+A DAC 8 DSD. I think I also invested at the wrong time as at that point, we then witnessed huge advances in DACs over the following five years.

 

[Sablon Audio]

as time goes by, connections and other hardware aspects are non-retrofitable.

This is very true and both our car and Philippe Starck dining room speakers are fitted with redundant iPod docking ports.

 

[Bodhi]

Vitus and APL Hifi both use a modular architecture to allow for future updates. For example, when Vitus developed a DSD USB board for the Signature Series cdp/dac, that was backward compatible with older models.