Who's buying the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yep, totally agree - listening with the option of returning is the pragmatic & definitive way to decide whether this is of any audible significance in your playback system.

But Amir infiltrates many threads with misinformation in the guise of 'audio science' - just as a simple & most recent example - his previous graph where he labelled one spike "high Second harmonic" - let him state what % THD this translates into for the readers instead of this attempted misinformation.

John - you remind me of Donald Trump's repeated claims of "fake news", wherein he states or tweets his own falsified version of "the truth", expecting we will all believe it. What Amir's measurements show is that there is no positive improvement in the analog audio output of the DAC that makes use of the Regen worthwhile in any way. Or, do you have evidence to the contrary, such as measurements?

Prior to, and therefore independent of, Amir's measurements, I decided after a few months that, while the Regen changed the sound slightly, it did not make it "better", as I initially had thought. A few weeks ago, I was chatting with a friend who had reached exactly the same conclusion independent of me, Amir or anyone else. So, we no longer use Regen in our systems, and we are happy. If you are happy using yours, then great.

I think when dealing with small sonic differences, it is quite easy to let the "sales pitch" about promised sonic improvement affect one's assessment of "improved sonics" quite subliminally. It is called unconscious bias, and it is and has been well known in psychology for quite a long time. Marketing in the audio industry would be dead without it.

 

[jkeny]

John - you remind me of Donald Trump's repeated claims of "fake news", wherein he states or tweets his own falsified version of "the truth", expecting we will all believe it. What Amir's measurements show is that there is no positive improvement in the analog audio output of the DAC that makes use of the Regen worthwhile in any way. Or, do you have evidence to the contrary, such as measurements?

Seeing as we are talking about the ISO Regen & not the Regen, you seem to have a distinct inability to handle FACTS.

If you even bothered to follow the thread, instead of jumping in without even knowing what device we are talking about, you would have seen I challenged Amir to show differences in measurements of the analogue waveform that we actually listen to (.i.e those at speaker or headphone output) between two upstream devices - let's say two of his USB to SPDIF converters.

These claims of where Amir & you want measurements to be taken are based on the statement "that's not what we listen to" - so show us measurements of what we actually listen to, not at the DAC's analogue outs but at speakers. That's what we hear, right? And that's where differences will be found if we can hear differences, right? So once Amir can do that he might have some credibility - otherwise his demands for measurements of "what we listen to" is just blowing smoke up people's ass under the guise of "audio science"

He dodged this challenge already, instead producing measurements of different DACs & making misleading statements about the iFi DAC's 2nd harmonic.

I posted a measurement of his showing the output from a cheap DAC of 3 USB to SPDIF converters overlaid on top of one another - this is still not what we listen to & I challenge him to show us the audible differences between the $20 cheapo & $400 Audiophileo. According to his measurements there is nothing of any audible note, so these devices all sound the same. Again he dodged this.

Fitz, if you can't follow this thread then you shouldn't be attempting to defend your 'guru', Amir who is seen on this video @ 57:00 stating how difficult he finds doing measurements on his Audio Precision System 2 because it doesn't tell him when he's made a dumb mistake, Doh! He has to post his results for others to tell him where he has Fcked up. Happens time & time again. Almost as bad as his gaff about complex numbers but not really at those depths of misunderstanding.

The thing that Amir demonstrates very well, is that measuring & characterising a device is not about owning an Audio Precision analyser, it requires a lot more nous & some degree of dedication to do it right - both of which Amir is missing. Sure his measurements will gain him attention & appeal to a certain type of individual who doesn't really care much about science but likes to appear sciencey - you know those who want to play with the sciencey types because they're the ones who laugh at everyone else - so for fear of being laughed at, some people end up in that camp pretending they are on the side of science

And btw, Fitz, you would be well advised to look at that video from about 48:0 on - there are many measurements needed to even begin to scratch the surface of how a device performs - not everything is revealed by a J-test, you know (in fact very little is)

So my advice to you is to go away & get some technical knowledge before you start saying that Amir's measurements show "no positive improvement in the analog audio output of the DAC" - it's a technically childish statement.

Prior to, and therefore independent of, Amir's measurements, I decided after a few months that, while the Regen changed the sound slightly, it did not make it "better", as I initially had thought. A few weeks ago, I was chatting with a friend who had reached exactly the same conclusion independent of me, Amir or anyone else. So, we no longer use Regen in our systems, and we are happy. If you are happy using yours, then great.

One thing that you should be asking yourself then is, why do I hear the Regen changed the sound & yet Amir's measurements showed it had no effect, nothing, nada? Do his measurements not show what we hear? A j-test signal isn't the be all of test signals, you know?

Got any answer to this discrepancy between what you hear & Amir's measurements that show nothing audible?
Come on, Fitz - a bit of honest reflection is called for

Unlike you, Fitz, it seems I have the ability to analyse & recognise what might have benefit & am able to investigate by research & experiment. I modified the Regen & I was asked to post my modifications on audioasylum. Those who tried my mods raved about it.

I think when dealing with small sonic differences, it is quite easy to let the "sales pitch" about promised sonic improvement affect one's assessment of "improved sonics" quite subliminally. It is called unconscious bias, and it is and has been well known in psychology for quite a long time. Marketing in the audio industry would be dead without it.

Indeed & you seem to overlook the very well known issue of experimenter bias which Amir is the epitome of - his bias precludes his pretensions to scientific credibility

 

[amirm]

I posted a measurement of his showing the output from a cheap DAC of 3 USB to SPDIF converters overlaid on top of one another - this is still not what we listen to & I challenge him to show us the audible differences between the $20 cheapo & $400 Audiophileo. According to his measurements there is nothing of any audible note, so these devices all sound the same. Again he dodged this.

I don't dodge anything. It is just that I have infinitesimal interest in dealing with your off-topic fistfights absence of interest from someone else.

And btw, Fitz, you would be well advised to look at that video from about 48:0 on - there are many measurements needed to even begin to scratch the surface of how a device performs - not everything is a J-test, you know.

If you skip to 57:00 minute, you see me hammering the AP guys for the poor interface of their systems. That led to two more detailed conversations with them where I am pushing them to incorporate psychoacoustical analysis to their raw measurements. They were intrigued and followed up with me but so far, we have not engaged.

Well, unlike you I have the ability to analyse & recognise what might have benefit & am able to investigate by research & experiment. I modified the Regen & I was asked to post my modifications on audioasylum. Those who tried my mods raved about it.

Indeed & you seem to overlook th every well known issue of experimenter bias which Amir is the epitome of - his bias precludes his pretensions to scientific credibility

You are just a pure salesman John, hoping to hide behind fancy technical words to confuse members hoping to reach in their wallet for crisp $100 bills while they are not looking. I have not seen you post one measurement of your own, one song you like, one chat outside of audio, any joke whatsoever. If you are proud of that, by all means, keep going. We need a comparison frame and you fit that bill well.

 

[amirm]

Indeed & you seem to overlook th every well known issue of experimenter bias which Amir is the epitome of - his bias precludes his pretensions to scientific credibility

Yet when I used to argue against extreme objectivists, my poop could not smell any better:

I follow the facts where they take me. If they support one or the other camp, so be it. Your intent is all about making money. We are discussing a product that you don't own or even intend to buy it seems. Yet are defending it because you want the category to exist so that you can sell stuff to people. Which is fine but then you come and lecture about science when the first thing you sacrifice, is that.

 

[jkeny]

I don't dodge anything. It is just that I have infinitesimal interest in dealing with your off-topic fistfights absence of interest from someone else.

And another deflection - anything but answering a straight technical question

If you skip to 57:00 minute, you see me hammering the AP guys for the poor interface of their systems. That led to two more detailed conversations with them where I am pushing them to incorporate psychoacoustical analysis to their raw measurements. They were intrigued and followed up with me but so far, we have not engaged.

AP were intrigued by your simplistic psychoacoustic remarks, Amir? - don't flatter yourself - Anthony in the video was just trying to not embarrass you in public - what you stated was trivial - no wonder they have not gone anywhere with it - anybody who needs such hand-holding from the equipment UI should not be using an AP - it's for big boys you know!

You are just a pure salesman John, hoping to hide behind fancy technical words to confuse members hoping to reach in their wallet for crisp $100 bills while they are not looking. I have not seen you post one measurement of your own, one song you like, one chat outside of audio, any joke whatsoever. If you are proud of that, by all means, keep going. We need a comparison frame and you fit that bill well.

I'm not the attention seeker you are, Amir - I don't need the post count.
Before you accused myself & Opus of not being aware of the technical term "oversampling" as used by all DSP technical people in relation to FFTs & now you suggest that I'm a purveyor of "fancy technical words" - hilarious, Amir, absolutely a gem.

 

[amirm]

AP were intrigued by your simplistic psychoacoustic remarks, Amir? - don't flatter yourself - Anthony in the video was just trying to not embarrass you in public - what you stated was trivial - no wonder they have not gone anywhere with it - anybody who needs such hand-holding from the equipment UI should not be using an AP - it's for big boys you know!

My public question to them was that their user interface as is, is horrible to use as it makes it very easy to make mistakes. You have not used it so don't understand the issue at hand.

As to the rest of your comments, the follow up were not with him but the people in their suites. Here is the interaction in private:

Doesn't jive with your presumption.

As I said, you bring nothing but worthless fistfighting.

 

[jkeny]

Yet when I used to argue against extreme objectivists, my poop could not smell any better:

I follow the facts where they take me. If they support one or the other camp, so be it.

And what you are showing is that I support the side that I judge is right & hence my post - the obvious bias of krabapple to ignore ABX text results because they didn't suit his world view - he wanted them administered by someone he agreed to - blowing smoke up everyone's ass just the same as you are doing here, Amir - in the pretense of looking for measurements of "what we listen to" - it's just a ruse - he know that what he was asking for was nigh on impossible to set up so he was safe asking for it & lack of such evidence was used as proof that the test results were invalid - just as you are trying to do, in your sciencey way.

I was on your side then or more correctly I was against the hypocrisy shown by krabapple - just as I am against the hypocrisy now shown here, by you Amir.

So I make the exact same statement as you "I follow the facts where they take me. If they support one or the other camp, so be it." If I find hypocrisy, I call it out.

Your intent is all about making money. We are discussing a product that you don't own or even intend to buy it seems. Yet are defending it because you want the category to exist so that you can sell stuff to people. Which is fine but then you come and lecture about science when the first thing you sacrifice, is that.

Again you reveal how little you understand. A minute ago I was "just a salesman" - I'm selling a ISO Regens, am I? If I was a salesman I wouldn't be driving traffic to this thread, would I - I would be promoting my products on my own thread. How many times have I even mentioned my own product here?

I am passionate about technologies I know work once I have researched them myself - hence my posting here & on the original Regen thread which you also slated.

I once thought that ASR might be the forum which began to bridge the great divide between measurements & audibility - a group of people who were interested in actually delving deeper than stock measurements in pursuit of scientific truth. How disappointed I was - not a shred of inquisitiveness, not a modicum of science - just a grouping of sciencey types who wanted to rah, rah about how bad all this "audiophile" stuff was & what "fools" the WBF people were, etc, etc.

 

[jkeny]

My public question to them was that their user interface as is, is horrible to use as it makes it very easy to make mistakes.

For you, that's patently obvious - leave it to the grown ups to use - the engineers or technicians who know something about what they are doing

You have not used it so don't understand the issue at hand.

As to the rest of your comments, the follow up were not with him but the people in their suites. Here is the interaction in private:

Doesn't jive with your presumption.

As I said, you bring nothing but worthless fistfighting.

Your understanding of psychoacoustics is summed up in this gem, Amir "In this regard, ASA is about unhearing things, not the other way around. In other words, it is a form of noise filtering." (ASA referring to Auditory Scene Analysis)

Your grasp of measurements & psychoacoustics is slight - as asked already, state what the THD of the 2nd harmonic you labelled "high second harmonic" in your graph of iFi iDAC2 & let the readers know the psychoacoustic significance of such a measurement.

I'm not surprised AP have not been in touch!!

 

[Elberoth]

Amir, since you doged my question twice already, I will post it here for the 3rd time:

I would love to see measurements of your Levinson DAC with say Shunyata power cord and generic computer power cord.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

For you, that's patently obvious - leave it to the grown ups to use - the engineers or technicians who know something about what they are doing

Your understanding of psychoacoustics is summed up in this gem, Amir "In this regard, ASA is about unhearing things, not the other way around. In other words, it is a form of noise filtering." (ASA referring to Auditory Scene Analysis)

Your grasp of measurements & psychoacoustics is slight - as asked already, state what the THD of the 2nd harmonic you labelled "high second harmonic" in your graph of iFi iDAC2 & let the readers know the psychoacoustic significance of such a measurement.

I'm not surprised AP have not been in touch!!

Ohh, raw, irrational hatred. Or, is it jealousy? So, offhand, I do not recall ever seeing a published measurement made by you in years of your posts in numerous forums. You have argued tooth and nail about them, how they "should" be made, but you have never produced any of your own measurements to illustrate your points. Yet, you lecture and criticize Amir, who has posted many?

You are a real piece of work, John. Your engineering credentials as a designer of digital products are revealed quite candidly in this thread. And, it ain't pretty.

 

[jkeny]

Ohh, raw, irrational hatred. Or, is it jealousy? So, offhand, I do not recall ever seeing a published measurement made by you in years of your posts in numerous forums. You have argued tooth and nail about them, how they "should" be made, but you have never produced any of your own measurements to illustrate your points. Yet, you lecture and criticize Amir, who has posted many?

You are a real piece of work, John. Your engineering credentials as a designer of digital products are revealed quite candidly in this thread. And, it ain't pretty.

Jealous of what?? I design digital products & the fruits of my labours have been tested in the marketplace who will quickly tell you if they are unworthy. What exactly does Amir do - remind me again, I've forgotten what I should be jealous of? Oh, right flawed & simplistic measurements - no I'm not jealous of that - I consider it a disservice to those who try to actually characterise a device & truly try to measure audibility.

You know a flawed measurement is worse than no measurement - see my sig for why!

You must have missed my use of Jim Lesurf's IQ-tests then?

Maybe, I know, Fitz that the area I work in does not currently fit the stock measurements that Amir wallows in. I don't have the time or the energy to find the measurements that will show the correlation to audibility. For what? To be met by the usual naysayers like yourself on audio forums who likes things sciencey & easy to digest, like Amir's sciencey soundbites.?

I'm too busy enjoying myself with activities that show real progress - investigating & developing some of these concepts to see where they lead - hopefully improved sound which is often but not always the case.

Your attempts at denigration of my designer abilities are, I'm afraid, typical of someone who knows little about what you speak of- have you ever heard any of my products?

Let's hear your guru, Amir, dodge Elberoth's question for the nth time revealing his credentials

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yeah, the old soft shoe,eh, John. But, with such a mean-spirited edge.

Oh, yeah, your DACS are world renowned. I must have seen a million threads where audiophiles raved about them.

Face it, John, you are just a wanna be, who keeps shooting himself in the foot because he has no facts, just hand waving and hair trigger argumentativeness as a defense for your lack of substance.

 

[jkeny]

Yeah, the old soft shoe,eh, John. But, with such a mean-spirited edge.

Oh, yeah, your DACS are world renowned. I must have seen a million threads where audiophiles raved about them.

Since when does quantity equate to quality?

You make no sense - I'm being mean-spirited when you were the one who came onto the thread just to attack me. Twisted logic but not surprising!

Face it, John, you are just a wanna be, who keeps shooting himself in the foot because he has no facts, just hand waving and hair trigger argumentativeness as a defense for your lack of substance.

This is rather childish argumentation, Fitz & not worth bothering with.
Ask Amir, to answer all the technical questions he has dodged so far.

 

[amirm]

Amir, since you doged my question twice already, I will post it here for the 3rd time:

I would love to see measurements of your Levinson DAC with say Shunyata power cord and generic computer power cord.

Just as well, I would love to see you pass a test of a generic cord and Shunyata cables you use when you don't have knowledge of which one is in use. If I post that measurement, will you take that test and post the results?

 

[Elberoth]

Amir - I thought you can do better. It was all supposed to be so easy for you. Measurements and stuff. I was really hoping you can put your money, where your mouth is. But it seems the king is naked.

 

[amirm]

Amir - I thought you can do better. It was all supposed to be so easy for you. Measurements and stuff. I was really hoping you can put your money, where your mouth is. But it seems the king is naked.

No, it is not easy. The ML dac is in my main system, not where my measurement test bench is. Furthermore, it uses a 90 degree IEC cord that plugs in the center bottom of the of the DAC. The Shunyata power cable I have is not right angle. This means I have to rip out the DAC out of my system and stand it on its side to plug in the Shunyata cable. And we all know what happens when you do that to a DAC. All the bits fall on one side and cause one channel to have less bits than the other!

And what to say of the fact that my Audio Precision analyzer is shipped with a generic cord?

Mind you, I have measured and posted the results of my Mark Levinson DAC in an article I wrote for Widescreen Review magazine a few years ago: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/

I bought this DAC in year 1999 I think. So it is 18 years old yet it has such clean performance.

It was that clean performance at the time that got me to buy it, based on measurements.

What would you expect to change in the above measurement using Shunyata cable?

 

[opus112]

Amir - I thought you can do better. It was all supposed to be so easy for you. Measurements and stuff.

One has to know what one's looking for in making measurements in order to get some relevant numbers.

 

[microstrip]

(...) What would you expect to change in the above measurement using Shunyata cable?

Nothing at all, considering your habitual technically correct system - Alpha USB/AES-EBU driving the ML DAC. But I have experience enough with Shunyata power cables to know that some of their older vintage cables with heavy filtering would kill the sound of most DAC's, making it thick and destroying air. They were tuned for a time digital was typically aggressive (not the case of ML top digital, I must say) and were really useful with most other equipment.

IMHO the measurements being referred do not show many significant changes in subjective sound quality. Anyone using an old PS power regenerator with multiwave capabilities knows that some of these fancy options of power - asymmetrical cycle, added distortion, could change significantly the sound quality for worst, not better. And I can not see any reason why these measurements would show any changes when using them.

Measurements can be excellent tools when properly used to increase our knowledge of audio. IMHO the real talent is finding measurements that really correlate with subjective sound quality, not fueling endless and useless debates around crusades against digital tweaks, that are just welcome temporary measures to solve problems of current implementations of digital. Audiophiles want excellent sound quality with digital with accessible gear, the brave people who develop these devices try to give people better sound quality for a reasonable price.

We all know that there is lot of snake oil in the high-end. If the usual measurements could help pointing and isolating it, I would be the first one to use them. However the only use I see of them in this forum is for trying to prove that excellent sounding high-end equipment can not sound better than average well measuring equipment, or tweaks can not work. So, for my interests, they are mostly useless. YMMV.

 

[opus112]

I don't dodge anything. It is just that I have infinitesimal interest in dealing with your off-topic fistfights absence of interest from someone else.

I'm still interested in answers to some of the outstanding questions you've dodged Amir. But naturally enough I'm not holding my breath.

 

[amirm]

I'm still interested in answers to some of the outstanding questions you've dodged Amir. But naturally enough I'm not holding my breath.