Who's buying the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN?

[853guy]

Hang on guys. REALITY CHECK!!!!! We are discussing a small USB clean up device, not somebody's end of life care. I repeat, try the thing, if it floats your boat (sounds better to you) keep it. If not sell it or return it. Don't continue this prolonged pointless argument with longer and longer quotes from really clever people (Einstein) and try to give your various arguments weight. In all cases with audio gear, I take measurements with a pinch of salt, and listen to the thing instead. You know, your might find your ears may well tell you more than some scope or graph will, believe it or not.......

Hello astrostar,

While I don’t disagree with your thoughts, I’d posit we’re discussing many things in this thread, and the elimination of bias is one of the things of centrality to the premise of whether or not USB packet noise affects the signal in audible ways. Without the elimination of bias, measurements - or indeed, lack of them - simply become instruments of selective exposure, as has been the case here. If we’re to move beyond it, given the research around it is currently in a nascent state, it seems reasonable to ask for bias to be eliminated, even in cases in which the subject either will not or cannot acknowledge that bias.

Of course, whether or not you agree or disagree with my thoughts will be of no consequence to the efficacy of the REGEN, whatever that might be, but for those of us who remain curious as to both its theoretical and real-world performance, this utility value of this thread as a work-in-progress will probably be evaluated best by the level of contributions of those who can put their bias aside.

Be well,

853guy

 

[Priaptor]

He also said: “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”


You must think his comment about the Universe must be wrong to believe two dudes who have no professional or educational experience in this field, no published papers, no measurements of their own, no data they have gathered, no patents, no nothing, telling you theories of what could be harming your digital audio.

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”

Now that is hysterical and SO true. Love it. I have no dog in this fight although one day, supposedly one of these ISO REGEN are being shipped to me, but Amir wins this debate hands down, IMHO.

 

[microstrip]

The question has no answer because in itself it embodies a mistake about the measure jitter, and how our hearing works. To determine if jitter is audible, you must characterize it spectrum. That is why I always show its spectrum rather than a number. Once you do, then you can apply psychoacoustic analysis that tells us the JND (just noticeable difference) of audibility. What is below that is not audible.

Let me spoil the news for you, the levels we see, even elevated ones fall below thresholds established based on listening tests.

I look at Jitter not because it is necessarily an audible problem, but because it separates the well-engineered products from an online hobbyist who decided one day to get into building audio devices, with no measurement or design experience to verify its performance. If you are going to spend big money on high-end product, at least make sure it is not thrown away and poor engineering.

Well, we agree on the fact that the jitter single number is almost meaningless in modern digital. Nice to know that your suggested analysis criteria is just applying the the JND of audibility to the measured spectra - this criteria has shown to be almost useless in high-end audio.

And no, you do not spoil anything to most people - we already know that the jitter spectra measurements of excellent digital can not be correlated with subjective sound, and new types of measurement are needed if we want to rely on specifications.

Although we all appreciate well-engineered products, you are just focusing on a single, currently almost meaningless parameter, ignoring subjective sound quality, that is the key word for audiophiles.

Curiously I have two DCS excellent DACs separated in time by fifteen years - the DCS Elgar Plus and the DCS Vivaldi - in my system. As far as I know any measured difference between them is well bellow the JND of audibility. But they sound very, very different, although in 2003 John Atkinson concluded the measuring section saying "It is hard to see how digital technology can get any better than this"

 

[amirm]

Well, what do you know.... I am at LA audio show and woke up this morning to an email from Uptone saying my money for this device is refunded!

---

Order summary

ISO REGEN × 1
With 7.5V/2.9A worldwide-voltage compatible switching power supply. / Standard for normal horizontal REGEN position $325.00

Subtotal $325.00
Shipping $9.00
Total $334.00 USD


Visa (ending in XXXX) $334.00
Refund
Shopify_payments - $334.00

----

I don't care which side of the fence you are on these audio arguments but can you really defend this type of conduct?

 

[pkane]

Well, what do you know.... I am at LA audio show and woke up this morning to an email from Uptone saying my money for this device is refunded!

Maybe they just want to send it to you for free?

 

[amirm]

Maybe they just want to send it to you for free?

Now there is a thought. My deepest apologies and appreciation if that is what they are doing.

 

[Steve williams]

Perhaps you're persona non grata

 

[amirm]

Perhaps you're persona non grata

 

[DaveC]

Love to see such measurements and proof of their audibility. Or is this another theory we must believe at face value?

This just shows more of your ignorance, like the fact you don't get why EMI/RFI filters operate at high frequencies and think they aren't effective because they don't filter out everything over 60 Hz... The worst part of ignorance is when you don't even understand that you're ignorant in the first place.



EDIT: I can't understand why you'd even try to order another regen after the last debacle.

 

[jkeny]

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance – it is the illusion of knowledge."

 

[microstrip]

(...) I don't care which side of the fence you are on these audio arguments but can you really defend this type of conduct?

Surely we understand them. Why selling a premium bottle of young wine to someone who openly admits he only likes old dusty wine and wants to report on why we should not drink young wines?

 

[Superdad]

Well, what do you know.... I am at LA audio show and woke up this morning to an email from Uptone saying my money for this device is refunded!

........

I don't care which side of the fence you are on these audio arguments but can you really defend this type of conduct?

Sure I can. After all the lies, insults, distortions, and other venom you have spewed towards my partner John Swenson and me, you are the last person on earth I would want to sell one of our products too. I have no idea why you have singled out our products (and the Sonore microRendu) as targets for your poorly conducted measurement routines, when there are a host of other brands out there with somewhat similar products with somewhat similar functionality.

It is quite clear you have no ability to discern between a crap DAC and a good one, and your interest in our ISO REGEN product has ZERO to do with curiosity about its benefits or even its technical performance. You are just looking to start another smear-job. Given that one of the functions of the ISO REGEN is to provide galvanic isolation, and that you have demonstrated an inability to correctly control for ground and leakage paths in your test set ups, I expect that you would fail to properly evaluate our new product.

Our products are sold with a 30-day money-back guarantee, and we have many thousands of happy customers. You may enjoy fermenting doubt, casting aspersions, and endlessly arguing about what you can and can't measure and what you can and can't hear, but I have no time and even less interest in your bullshit agenda. So take a hike Amir.

--Alex C.
UpTone Audio LLC

P.S. Since I accused you of lying and I am sure you will ask, I'll give you one example: Somewhere on WBF you said that you "met and spoke extensively with John Swenson." That's only if you count 15 minutes of casual conversation (with you doing most of the talking) outside the elevators when we ran into you at RMAF 2015. Plus plenty of misquoting and other distortions of the truth.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Alex, I just don't believe you for a second. I think you are trying to create a smokescreen simply because you don't want Amir to comprehensively measure your device, a capability which neither you nor Swenson has or can even dream of. And, what does that say about the development of the product? But, this little gambit of anonymously rejecting Amir's sales order is stupid, to put it mildly. He can get one easily in countless other ways.

We already know you just totally ducked out of the offer to do a DBT on Regen on your terms. You just shut that discussion down and hightailed it after initially agreeing to do the test with seeming seriousness. Why are you now afraid of Amir's measurements on ISO Regen? That is the bottom line of what you are attempting to prevent. Though, if he wishes, there are obviously many ways he can obtain one. Keep looking over your shoulder.

 

[Priaptor]

Alex, I just don't believe you for a second. I think you are trying to create a smokescreen simply because you don't want Amir to comprehensively measure your device, a capability which neither you nor Swenson has or can even dream of. And, what does that say about the development of the product? But, this little gambit of anonymously rejecting Amir's sales order is stupid, to put it mildly. He can get one easily in countless other ways.

We already know you just totally ducked out of the offer to do a DBT on Regen on your terms. You just shut that discussion down and hightailed it after initially agreeing to do the test with seeming seriousness. Why are you now afraid of Amir's measurements on ISO Regen? That is the bottom line of what you are attempting to prevent. Though, if he wishes, there are obviously many ways he can obtain one. Keep looking over your shoulder.

I get Alex's point whether you want to or not is up to you. Amir makes good "debating points" as I indicated above BUT this issue Alex is making that Amir isn't measuring his equipment in the manner it should or with equipment it should and disagrees with his methodology is a point that is of valid concern.

Personally I don't give a rat's ass about all the measurements (my bad) as the older I get the more I just want to listen to the best possible system.

I happen to love Alex's LPS-1 powering my microRendu which is now my go to source from a Roon Core. I think both are spectacular, the best my MSB V (next week to be a Select II) has ever sounded and can't wait for my ISO regen.

It's Alex's business to do with what he wants. Amir likes to taunt. I like to listen. To each his own.

 

[Don Hills]

Sure I can. ...

Streisand effect in 3... 2... 1...

 

[The Smokester]

...Given that one of the functions of the ISO REGEN is to provide galvanic isolation, and that you have demonstrated an inability to correctly control for ground and leakage paths in your test set ups, I expect that you would fail to properly evaluate our new product...

Your attempts to stifle scruitiny of your device are wrong on so many levels.

First, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Second, as you observe from this thread, Amir has considerable creativity, competence and credibility and knows how to use it. He will get one of your devices, test it and present the results. I'll bet on that.

Third, you have put yourself into a hole by acting so defensively. Amir has taken a lot of flack on this thread and his primary defence is: "Show me the measurements." Since he has a measurement device that few in his audience have access, he is truly "The one eyed king in the land of the blind." In my view, Amir is vulnerable since no one, including Amir, has really addressed the proposed shortcomings of his analysis through measurement. Any shortcomings, if there are any, should come out.

Fourth: If you designed this device, surely you have insights and measurement capabilities that go beyond what has been presented here so far. Participating in this debate will put you in a strong position.

Science, and the search for truth and knowledge, is an adversarial process, uneasy though that may be. In my view, Amir is in an exposed position since he only apparently has a hammer and sees everything as a nail.

Harden up and take the challenge.

 

[Legolas]

I get Alex's point whether you want to or not is up to you. Amir makes good "debating points" as I indicated above BUT this issue Alex is making that Amir isn't measuring his equipment in the manner it should or with equipment it should and disagrees with his methodology is a point that is of valid concern.

Personally I don't give a rat's ass about all the measurements (my bad) as the older I get the more I just want to listen to the best possible system.

I happen to love Alex's LPS-1 powering my microRendu which is now my go to source from a Roon Core. I think both are spectacular, the best my MSB V (next week to be a Select II) has ever sounded and can't wait for my ISO regen.

It's Alex's business to do with what he wants. Amir likes to taunt. I like to listen. To each his own.

Well said. I would also add the Uptone Audio MMK kit for the Mac Mini is brilliant, really well made and thought out, and it works a treat. My view on this ISO Regen debacle thread, is just listen to the device. Forget this anally retentive tech specs safety blanket bull. I had 20 years of 'tech specs' telling me Delta-Sigma DACs sounded great, and then heard Non Oversampling R-2R DACs with worse 'tech specs' that sounded marvellous.

I would add running a USB feed direct form a PC / music server to a DAC is probably not the best idea. In my tests over the years, I found you need some form of noise isolation and reclocker in the line before the DAC. It seems to me USB is inherently flawed on it's own.

I would bail from this thread Superdad, you will never counter the negative energy here. Better to use your time elsewhere (on other threads).

 

[cpvniii]

Well, what do you know.... I am at LA audio show and woke up this morning to an email from Uptone saying my money for this device is refunded!

---

Order summary

ISO REGEN × 1
With 7.5V/2.9A worldwide-voltage compatible switching power supply. / Standard for normal horizontal REGEN position $325.00

Subtotal $325.00
Shipping $9.00
Total $334.00 USD


Visa (ending in XXXX) $334.00
Refund
Shopify_payments - $334.00

----

I don't care which side of the fence you are on these audio arguments but can you really defend this type of conduct?

Yep, I can. I choose never to do business with anyone who wishes me, my employees or my product and services harm. Simple as that.

 

[The Smokester]

Yep, I can. I choose never to do business with anyone who wishes me, my employees or my product and services harm. Simple as that.

And what about your customers?

 

[amirm]

Sure I can. After all the lies, insults, distortions, and other venom you have spewed towards my partner John Swenson and me, you are the last person on earth I would want to sell one of our products too. I have no idea why you have singled out our products (and the Sonore microRendu) as targets for your poorly conducted measurement routines, when there are a host of other brands out there with somewhat similar products with somewhat similar functionality.

It is quite clear you have no ability to discern between a crap DAC and a good one, and your interest in our ISO REGEN product has ZERO to do with curiosity about its benefits or even its technical performance. You are just looking to start another smear-job. Given that one of the functions of the ISO REGEN is to provide galvanic isolation, and that you have demonstrated an inability to correctly control for ground and leakage paths in your test set ups, I expect that you would fail to properly evaluate our new product.

Our products are sold with a 30-day money-back guarantee, and we have many thousands of happy customers. You may enjoy fermenting doubt, casting aspersions, and endlessly arguing about what you can and can't measure and what you can and can't hear, but I have no time and even less interest in your bullshit agenda. So take a hike Amir.

--Alex C.
UpTone Audio LLC

P.S. Since I accused you of lying and I am sure you will ask, I'll give you one example: Somewhere on WBF you said that you "met and spoke extensively with John Swenson." That's only if you count 15 minutes of casual conversation (with you doing most of the talking) outside the elevators when we ran into you at RMAF 2015. Plus plenty of misquoting and other distortions of the truth.

Anyone hear any good jokes lately?