Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[bonzo75]

Frank, people seem extremist when commenting on forums.

 

[thedudeabides]

Are you saying that CD playback is more natural and realistic than high end vinyl playback as compared to reality?david

How can anyone possibly answer that question in an acceptable manner (one in which you would agree and not contest) given your obvious bias towards vinyl?

This thread again highlights the apparent need for some analogue lovers to tell people who really enjoy listening to CD's, how much we reaaaaaaaally don't know and what we are reaaaaaaally missing unless we listen to a properly set vinyl system. Frankly, it comes across as elitism and doesn't serve the purpose of owning a music system. That being to enjoy listening to music versus the gear. How truly sad and unfortunate.

FWIW, I am very happy with my six year old discontinued CDP that has a current street value of maybe $2,500.

Happy listening, if you are able to do it.

 

[sbo6]

This is at the heart of the matter. The question is often asked and rarely answered. I have also asked how different the direct mic feed played through the studio monitors sounds from the live performance in the next room. That question also remains unanswered.

This whole thread seems to be a discussion about:

1. how accurate a copy the digital file is to the original recording, and
2. whether or not analog playback through a system sounds like real music

These are two different discussions and perhaps that is why we seem to keep going around in circles. When discussing #1, digital guys defend theories and write that analog lovers like distortions but that is fine if they prefer that sound. When discussing #2, analog guys contend that vinyl sounds more real and describe things like tone, naturalness and live music. They acknowledge that digital is improving, but that it still does not sound as real to them.

WRT #1, I don't think there's a challenge that the live or multi-tracked performance is not "captured accurately" especially with DSD. Now, what happens in the mixing/mastering process is another story. To me the problem with digital is in the D->A process which continues to improve and is quite stellar with higher end setups like DCS, TotalDAC, MSB, etc.

WRT #2, That question is purely subjective whether analog or digital. The first alteration of the live event being at the studio with the choice of mic(s), preamp and all other components used for the recording.

Also, WRT how different the direct mic feed played through the studio monitors sounds from the live performance in the next room - completely different. A better question IME would be - how does the virgin playback on the monitors sound vs installing a system in the studio and playing the mixed/mastered and production SACD/record on the very same monitors/amp/cables.

 

[Al M.]

I am disappointed, and a bit surprised, that some people on this forum refer to "digital guys" and "analog guys".

I would think that such guys are a small minority of "extremist" audiophiles, surely?

Why? I have no reason to own a turntable. I don't call myself "extremist", and as you will have noticed on this thread, I do appreciate great analog.

 

[sbo6]

I enjoy both, and have used both for decades as do most of the other audiophiles of my aquaintance. I have fabulous sounding and gash LPs. I have fabulous and gash sounding CDs. In fact the worst CDs tend to be recent remastered ones, not early ones which usually rejoiced in and exploited CDs dynamic range, something new to home listening at the time.

My preferred recordings tend to be those made with a simple microphone layout, which tend to be earlier, whether CD or LP.

That about sums it up pretty well, gunnite Alice! :b

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Or design their own chips from scratch like dCS and these are constantly new ones with new algorithms. And while the Trinity that you had used old chips, the LianoTec configuration was a brand new design. And it made PCM enjoyable for you to a degree you never experienced before.



Apart from the above, I could not have gotten the sound quality that I have from my Berkeley Alpha DAC 2 for the same price a few years ago.



And? Again, according to several people here the American Sound turntable still beats a number of newer designs.

O.k., let me not belittle new designs in analog. But then, you should also refrain from doing the same for digital.



And it's still the good old LP. Your point?

no where did I, nor would I, belittle digital. likely I've invested as much or more in digital as anyone here. I listen to it daily and love it. I have 15+ terabytes of digital on my server.....and 4000 silver discs in my room.

it's only when vinyl is targeted as not correct, or lacking in some way that I post concerning that comparison. since I spend so much time with both.

is vinyl quite a bit better and more real to listen to? absolutely. do I look down my nose at digital? no, not now or ever. please read what I write, not assume some position I've never taken.

 

[ddk]

Peter

Indeed, thanks for the summary

As a point of clarification I see people are alluding to comments I made about the TechDas vs the AS and the EMT 927 as sounding better than my TechDas AF1 (which I love BTW). The reality is that the AS as best David knows has only 2 in existence. It was mesmerizing to my ears as was the EMT 927 with the same arm and cartridge. From this please do not infer that the AF1 is any slouch as it is far from that. As David also pointed out he also had 2 Micro Seikei TT's set up which I also did not hear.

Slight correction Steve, I only came across the two AS tables in over twenty years of searching and bought both, there probably are a few more out there, but very few where built anyway!

david

 

[sbo6]

no where did I, nor would I, belittle digital. likely I've invested as much or more in digital as anyone here. I listen to it daily and love it. I have 15+ terabytes of digital on my server.....and 4000 silver discs in my room.

it's only when vinyl is targeted as not correct, or lacking in some way that I post concerning that comparison. since I spend so much time with both.

is vinyl quite a bit better and more real to listen to? absolutely. do I look down my nose at digital? no, not now or ever. please read what I write, not assume some position I've never taken.

Why can't we agree that

a) From a specification perspective, digital (DSD in particular) has the upper hand on vinyl.
b) Vinyl "colorations" for lack of a better word offer the human ear more pleasing sonics (for some).
c) No recording format or system sounds like the live event, they are a facsimile of said event that we strive to improve via audio tweaks/gear changes.

 

[Steve Williams]

Slight correction Steve, I only came across the two AS tables in over twenty years of searching and bought both, there probably are a few more out there, but very few were built anyway!

david

You're not going to become a hoarder now are you

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why can't we agree that

a) From a specification perspective, digital (DSD in particular) has the upper hand on vinyl.
b) Vinyl "colorations" for lack of a better word offer the human ear more pleasing sonics (for some).
c) No recording format or system sounds like the live event, they are a facsimile of said event that we strive to improve via audio tweaks/gear changes.

a and b are myths with hints of truth but which cloud the real picture.

c, while objectively true, marginalizes how much nearer to that goal that vinyl can get.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...e-than-digital&p=290457&viewfull=1#post290457

Ralph says it better than I can.....

 

[FrantzM]

Why can't we agree that

a) From a specification perspective, digital (DSD in particular) has the upper hand on vinyl.
b) Vinyl "colorations" for lack of a better word offer the human ear more pleasing sonics (for some).
c) No recording format or system sounds like the live event, they are a facsimile of said event that we strive to improve via audio tweaks/gear changes.

sbo?

May I perform some slight editing of your post...

a) Specs wise I am not so sure DSD has the upper hand on PCM ...
b) Vinyl "renditions" offer some humans ears a more pleasing portrayal of the sonics.
c) No recording formats or system sounds like the live event, they are (sometimes reasonable) facsimile that we should strive to improve .. Not knowing what the original was and in the absence of an objective goal it remains a crapshoot and lead to this kind of argument

Sorry

 

[amirm]

a and b are myths with hints of truth but which cloud the real picture.

I am a sucker for myths. So please explain.

 

[Lee]

Would you be so kind as to let me know any way in which LP measures better than red book, let alone higher resolutions?

As I mentioned before, bandwidth for starters.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am a sucker for myths. So please explain.

how about you come over and i'll let you hear it for yourself.

we can listen to source tapes and then see how we think digital or vinyl got closer to that source.

 

[sbo6]

If specs are a myth I guess we got lucky with the men on the moon.... How much those specs make a sonic difference I would say is a better rebuttal.

Your comments on c "while objectively true" is quite subjective ;-) It was meant to be format agnostic (tape included).

 

[sbo6]

sbo?

May I perform some slight editing of your post...

a) Specs wise I am not so sure DSD has the upper hand on PCM ...
b) Vinyl "renditions" offer some humans ears a more pleasing portrayal of the sonics.
c) No recording formats or system sounds like the live event, they are (sometimes reasonable) facsimile that we should strive to improve .. Not knowing what the original was and in the absence of an objective goal it remains a crapshoot and lead to this kind of argument

Sorry

Well said, edits approved!

 

[f1eng]

As I mentioned before, bandwidth for starters.

OK, I have already replied about the potential to record low levels of frequencies above the line where the threshold of hearing intersects the threshold of pain.
If that is only a starter, perhaps you could tell me about one which has a faint possibility of being audible?

 

[ddk]

How can anyone possibly answer that question in an acceptable manner (one in which you would agree and not contest) given your obvious bias towards vinyl?

I'm asking for clarification of his statement regarding accuracy not to contest or accept but to understand what he's talking about.

This thread again highlights the apparent need for some analogue lovers to tell people who really enjoy listening to CD's, how much we reaaaaaaaally don't know and what we are reaaaaaaally missing unless we listen to a properly set vinyl system. Frankly, it comes across as elitism and doesn't serve the purpose of owning a music system. That being to enjoy listening to music versus the gear. How truly sad and unfortunate.

Not so and actually the opposite is being contested. The article from OP and several posters categorically say that the only reason people like analog is because they're distortion junkies and can't appreciate the accuracy of CD. This is a gear forum for discussing equipment, gear related suggestion are made from all sides, nothing elitist it.

david

 

[ddk]

You're not going to become a hoarder now are you

LOL! I've been good and letting go of a lot of things over the past 3 years...

david

 

[Al M.]

As I mentioned before, bandwidth for starters.

Which is irrelevant, see here:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ter-Than-Vinyl&p=388934&viewfull=1#post388934